Eircode for Waterford?

Wanderer78

BuffyBot wrote: »

..queue claims of "job for the boys", "same old people getting the contracts", "brown envelope" claims if it was awarded to an Irish company. Folks are never happy.

The funny thing is that all these wah-wah doom and gloom claims are practically identical to those mooted when the UK introduced postcodes many moods ago. Yet, it's proven to work out fine in the long run.

ah yea gonna give it time. we probably do need some sort of postcode system. im sure all systems have teething problems so we ll see what happens. debates are interesting though.

... sure if we were all happy, what would we give out about? sure joe and billy would be out of a job!

Fireman1

Hi katydid,
Please do not let facts get in the way of your thought process. You say "Rubbish. Firstly, no one rushed to get their codes. They were sent them in the post." Sorry you are wrong. Waterford was one of the first areas in the Country to get the letter. Most of Cork got their letters yesterday or will get them today. As yet the letters are not posted in Dublin. Eircodes launched at 10:00 on Monday.The website went live at 8 am. Even before the launch thousands of people had checked thei codes on line, at least that is what the company running the launch said. The website was so busy that they were boasting that it had stayed up.

Your second point "The people that need to know who lives in what property already have that information" again wrong. 35% of addresses in Ireland are non unique. That is two or more properties have exactly the same address. Many are lived in by families who share the same surname. Capita have explained that that is a primary reason for the codes.

As an aside, An Post do not own the Eircode database. They will not get a cent from people paying for licences. The contract to come up with Eircodes was given to a UK company Capita. An Post will probably loose money as their data base of addresses does not have Eircodes. Google An Post Address Checker and enter an address if you doubt me.

A letter with just the postcode cannot be delivered. As far as I know the postman does not have a machine to tell him where to go with it. The Eircode is no help to a post person!
They already know which sorting office they are working out of and cant do anything with the second part of the code.
'Paranoid? Probably. But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you

deisemum

In the UK you can just put your postcode and house number and omit your full address and you'll get your post just as quickly as you would by using the full address.

katydid

Fireman1 wrote: »

Hi katydid,
Please do not let facts get in the way of your thought process. You say "Rubbish. Firstly, no one rushed to get their codes. They were sent them in the post." Sorry you are wrong. Waterford was one of the first areas in the Country to get the letter. Most of Cork got their letters yesterday or will get them today. As yet the letters are not posted in Dublin. Eircodes launched at 10:00 on Monday.The website went live at 8 am. Even before the launch thousands of people had checked thei codes on line, at least that is what the company running the launch said. The website was so busy that they were boasting that it had stayed up.

Your second point "The people that need to know who lives in what property already have that information" again wrong. 35% of addresses in Ireland are non unique. That is two or more properties have exactly the same address. Many are lived in by families who share the same surname. Capita have explained that that is a primary reason for the codes.

As an aside, An Post do not own the Eircode database. They will not get a cent from people paying for licences. The contract to come up with Eircodes was given to a UK company Capita. An Post will probably loose money as their data base of addresses does not have Eircodes. Google An Post Address Checker and enter an address if you doubt me.

A letter with just the postcode cannot be delivered. As far as I know the postman does not have a machine to tell him where to go with it. The Eircode is no help to a post person!
They already know which sorting office they are working out of and cant do anything with the second part of the code.
'Paranoid? Probably. But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you

Fact; we're talking about Waterford. In Waterford we got the letters. Other people will get letters. The tense is irrelevant; what is relevant is that they don't have to apply for them, they are already allocated to them.

I take your point about non-unique addresses, but identifying an address more closely has nothing to do with a registration number for that property; it revenue want to get your money off you, they don't need a registration number, they will find you and get it. To call it a property tax registration number is nonsense.

Having said that, I won't be using it. I think the idea is good, but I'm not going to use something that makes it easier for private companies but not for An Post. I think it's a flawed system and should be boycotted. Mind you, I don't live in the third house up the boreen after the big tree after the bridge; if I did, I might see it as a godsend.

beazee

Fireman1 wrote: »

Hi katydid,
A letter with just the postcode cannot be delivered. As far as I know the postman does not have a machine to tell him where to go with it.

This is actually something I'd like to check. To see whether the "postcode" is of any use for delivering post.

Fireman1

beazee wrote: »

This is actually something I'd like to check. To see whether the "postcode" is of any use for delivering post.

From what I read on the Royal mail postalheritage site their code gives the sorting office, same as Eircode, but the second part is up to 15 adjacent addresses. So their postcode is not unlike our non unique addreses. The local postman is smart enough and has the knowledge to do the last bit of getting the mail delivered.
An Post have also made some remarkable deliveries. Try going to Joe.ie and search for ....post Cavan.... So it might work once or twice but Eircodes are not as usable as the UK system. The UK system is useless as a PRN, Eircode is just perfect for that.

Ps When looking for an example of An Post making deliveries that were exceptional I came across meversusanpost dot tumbler dot com Worth a look.

beazee

Some amazing accomplishments by An Post on this site:
http://meversusanpost.tumblr.com/

Haven't found the sole postcode address yet.

jmcc

beazee wrote: »

Some amazing accomplishments by An Post on this site:
http://meversusanpost.tumblr.com/

Haven't found the sole postcode address yet.

Cool site. An Post has always been impressive. I once received a letter from the USA addressed with just my name and Ireland as the addressing information.

Regards...jmcc

MarkK

O Riain wrote: »

How stupid is that, why not just make it W or WD to save confusion. Also adjacent areas won't have similar postcodes but will in fact have completely random post codes. Absolutely insane.

Aside from the problem of which county code you give to postal districts which span county borders, such as Youghal, Carrick and Clonmel...

W is west london, WD is watford in the UK.
It would truly be insane to use postcodes so easily confused for British ones, ending up with post from the UK getting delayed or lost.

MarkK

Fireman1 wrote: »

... but the second part is up to 15 adjacent addresses. So their postcode is not unlike our non unique addreses. The local postman is smart enough and has the knowledge to do the last bit of getting the mail delivered.

I think it's 15 adjacent addresses on average, UK codes such as E15 1JA have over 100 addresses, in rural areas, it may just cover a handful and big companies often get their own postcode.

It's far more unusual in the UK for a house not to have a name or number.

Trick of the Tail

In the UK the postcode is just that - a code to assist sorting mail. The code refers to a number of houses, a street or part of. To get a letter delivered you have to put the house number on the letter too.

They system means that if a new house is built in an area, it will have the same postcode as the others around it.

That type of postcode is unnecessary now, since character recognition software is now able to read full addresses anyway.

But the new system here assigns a unique, non-consecutive code to every dwelling. Pointless really, since every dwelling has an electricity meter and they all have unique numbers anyway. They could have just used that, or a derivation of it.

What's more useful these days is a location code, so a place can be identified even if it's not a dwelling. Imagine you come across a traffic accident in the middle of nowhere, and could look on your smartphone and give the emergency services a code that locates the place you're at?

Ok, I know you could give them the lat/long, but not all phones have that, and there are several formats.

Eircode is useless for that. Loc8 was perfect for it.

But the only reason the government weren't interested in taking up the offer of Loc8 for free was because it's harder to monetise. There is no database to sell.

Or not sell, as I suspect will be the case, since they've made it too complicated to work, and the database is too big and will change too often to be of any use to sat navs.

Loc8 would have been far better in providing what the system is supposed to provide than Eircode, but no-one could have been given tens of millions to develop it and more tens or hundreds of millions to maintain it for years to come.

Eircode is a typical cock-up, and proves that governments should have nothing to do with organising things like this. They can't do it right, there are too many vested interests, and too much scope for corruption.

MarkK

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

In the UK the postcode is just that - a code to assist sorting mail.

In England postcodes are used for far more than that.
Anything internet related expects you to use your postcode to give your address.
Many web sites ask for your address in the form of a postcode, then it provides a dropdown list of the available addresses at the postcode to choose from.

In some shops, if I forget my loyalty card, they can use my postcode to find my details.

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

That type of postcode is unnecessary now, since character recognition software is now able to read full addresses anyway.

Postcodes are unnecessary for An Post, and indeed they did not want a postcode system.
They are very useful for having a quick and accurate way of conveying your address.

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

But the new system here assigns a unique, non-consecutive code to every dwelling. Pointless really, since every dwelling has an electricity meter and they all have unique numbers anyway. They could have just used that, or a derivation of it.

And electricity meter numbers are how many character long? non-consecutive and when you get a new meter installed does your postcode change?

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

But the only reason the government weren't interested in taking up the offer of Loc8 for free was because it's harder to monetise. There is no database to sell.

As I understand it Loc8 would allow the GOVERNMENT to use it for free, they did not say that everyone could use it for free. Loc8 was privately developed and funded, so it is totally reasonable that they would want a return on their investment. I don't like the idea of the national postcode system being privately controlled.

Johnboy1951

MarkK wrote: »

As I understand it Loc8 would allow the GOVERNMENT to use it for free, they did not say that everyone could use it for free. Loc8 was privately developed and funded, so it is totally reasonable that they would want a return on their investment. I don't like the idea of the national postcode system being privately controlled.

How do you feel about the 'Eircode' name not being owned by the Irish Gov?

What can you link me to that shows ownership of the database of Eircode and what charges are/will be levied for its use by those who need some form of location information?
Charges outlined here:
https://www.eircode.ie/images/Licencing-and-PricingInformation-as-of-March2015-PUBLISHED%20v.2.pdf

I am not clear who benefits from those charges ...

It looks to me that Eircode have acquired (for the most part) the An Post data base and restructured it by adding codes.

Looking at the Loc8 scheme it seems to be a much more flexible system while at the same time covering all the requirements for emergency and other services.

.. comparison with E-Voting machines comes to mind ..

LeinsterDub

Cabaal wrote: »

Problem is a large amount of delivery company's including An Post have no plans to use eircodes

An post and nearly every delivery company I've heard absolutely will be using it

Johnboy1951

LeinsterDub wrote: »

An post and nearly every delivery company I've heard absolutely will be using it

An post already use their own delivery method from their own data base.
They have no need or requirement for any additional information.

I would much prefer to see this being the basis for all codes .... mail and other services ....

http://www.openpostcode.org/

MarkK

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

How do you feel about the 'Eircode' name not being owned by the Irish Gov?

I don't care it's the "Irish postcode" I'm not bothered how they market it.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

What can you link me to that shows ownership of the database of Eircode and what charges are/will be levied for its use by those who need some form of location information?
Charges outlined here:
https://www.eircode.ie/images/Licencing-and-PricingInformation-as-of-March2015-PUBLISHED%20v.2.pdf

I am not clear who benefits from those charges ...

And I'm not clear what charges Loc8 might levy or who might benefit from them.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Looking at the Loc8 scheme it seems to be a much more flexible system while at the same time covering all the requirements for emergency and other services.

That's one argument I don't get, is there an emergency services requirement that exist for the Irish postcode which don't exist for the UK postcode?

If you have an accident in the middle of nowhere how do you know what the Loc8 code is? The only way I can think of is with a smartphone, which can be used to convey your location anyway, using something like:
http://afloat.ie/safety/rescue/item/27495-new-locateme112-service-helps-locate-emergency-callers-via-smartphone

Johnboy1951

We don't have a need for a post code for mail deliveries.
An Post have been running their own scheme quite successfully.

What would be a benefit would be location code ..... one not tied to the mail delivery scheme, but independent and versatile.

http://www.openpostcode.org/
is one such scheme.
Similar to Loc8 but open to all without cost etc.

A system based on this could be beneficial to all.

If you have an accident in the middle of nowhere how do you know what the Loc8 code is? The only way I can think of is with a smartphone, which can be used to convey your location anyway, using something like:
http://afloat.ie/safety/rescue/item/...via-smartphone

All such services should be able to use the 'Official' Irish codes to locate a person, no matter where they are, to within a metre or so.
The Eircodes are for mail delivery points and nothing else.

We had a chance to get one set of 'official' codes for the island, that all services could use ...... delivery, emergency etc etc.

Now we have An Post using their own system for local delivery (postie local knowledge). They indicate they will use the Eircode where present for some main sorting locations.

Eircode could be used for other delivery persons .... but cost is a big factor, and there is no postcode relation between locations in close proximity which makes it useless to a human.

Whatever about the initial cost, we could have had a much better and expandable & versatile system for our future needs.

I would like to think that if I was in need of assistance and used an app on a mobile phone, that it could generate (without licence issues) a 'code' that all services could use - again without licencing issues.

That 'complete' system does not seem possible now ...... so we get a multiple of different services generating their own codes or using different systems.

selous

Cabaal wrote: »

Problem is a large amount of delivery company's including An Post have no plans to use eircodes

I don't see how An Post will use them, imagine only a post code going on an envelope,poor oul postie has to learn all the post codes on his route, :eek:

They still need an address or like where I live no-one uses a house name or number just the persons name, and the post codes are coming out to the house not person, so they'll be sent out addressed to the road, loads of them,

So someone will have to look up the post code to see what house they are for, as they now can NOT return them as "incomplete address" as they wont be, oops.:cool:

MarkK

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

What would be a benefit would be location code ..... one not tied to the mail delivery scheme, but independent and versatile.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

All such services should be able to use the 'Official' Irish codes to locate a person, no matter where they are, to within a metre or so.

Does any other country have such a postcode system?
If nobody else needs one, why do we?

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

The Eircodes are for mail delivery points and nothing else.

Postcode system turns out to be ... a postcode system.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Eircode could be used for other delivery persons .... but cost is a big factor, and there is no postcode relation between locations in close proximity which makes it useless to a human.

I'm not sure what you mean, if you were in UK postcode NW2 7HP and wanted to go to NW1 7HP, how would you know where to go without looking it up online or similar?

Johnboy1951

MarkK wrote: »

Does any other country have such a postcode system?
If nobody else needs one, why do we?


Postcode system turns out to be ... a postcode system.

You seem stuck on Postcode for delivery of mail/parcels etc.

We had the opportunity to do all that and a lot more by selecting to use a more advanced system which could be used for location and not just mail delivery points.

I'm not sure what you mean, if you were in UK postcode NW2 7HP and wanted to go to NW1 7HP, how would you know where to go without looking it up online or similar?

If my business was delivery then I am certain I would know.
Try that with those Eircode codes ... not a hope.

Anyway, that is really beside the point ....... we had the opportunity to not introduce a 1960s system, but to introduce a much more modern, accurate and versatile system and we have blown it, apparently.

MarkK

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

You seem stuck on Postcode for delivery of mail/parcels etc.

We had the opportunity to do all that and a lot more by selecting to use a more advanced system which could be used for location and not just mail delivery points.

No answer then on giving me any other country which has a "for location" postal code system?

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

If my business was delivery then I am certain I would know.
Try that with those Eircode codes ... not a hope.

You really think all delivery drivers in London have memorised every single postcode? LOL
They would probably know the first half of the postcode, but pre wide availability of the internet they would look up the street address in the A-Z Directory. The second half of the UK postcode would be ignored.
Today, they probably have computer determined best routes, using the postcode database.

Johnboy1951

MarkK wrote: »

No answer then on giving me any other country which has a "for location" postal code system?

Again ..... you are stuck on the idea of a 'postal' code.
Widen your view and see how a versatile system could be used, not only for postal codes, but for location also.

You really think all delivery drivers in London have memorised every single postcode? LOL

No, but your example was a comparison between NW1 and NW2 which I would hope would be easily known ...

They would probably know the first half of the postcode, but pre wide availability of the internet they would look up the street address in the A-Z Directory. The second half of the UK postcode would be ignored.
Today, they probably have computer determined best routes, using the postcode database.

Ah, so you agree with me.

There is no point in continuing this discussion when you insist on limiting the possibilities of the code system only to postal requirements.

Time to move into the new century and leave 1960s thinking behind.

MarkK

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Again ..... you are stuck on the idea of a 'postal' code.
Widen your view and see how a versatile system could be used, not only for postal codes, but for location also.

An Eircode does give you a location.
Still no answer on why we need a system no other country in the world needs.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

No, but your example was a comparison between NW1 and NW2 which I would hope would be easily known ...

There are tens of thousands of addresses in each of NW1 and NW2.
And NW1 and NW2 are not beside each other.
In the absence of a database to look up the postcode, 99.9% of Londoners would not be able to find either NW2 7HP or NW1 7HP by postcode alone.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

There is no point in continuing this discussion when you insist on limiting the possibilities of the code system only to postal requirements.

I don't. I'd love to hear your reasons of why we need a system that no other country has. It appears you don't have any.

Trick of the Tail

I'll give you a couple:

"hello, is that the farm equipment supplier? My machine has failed and I'd like you to come and fix it. It's five miles from my house. The Loc8 code is..."

"hello, ambulance? I've just had an accident in my car and my passenger is injured. I don't know what road we're on or near what village, but the Loc8 code is..."

Other country's post codes were developed when there was a need for a way of automating postal sorting, and before the days of GPS.

Here, we could have used the late adoption as an advantage, and introduced a more useful system, but alas government and vested interests have become involved and cocked it up.

MarkK

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

I'll give you a couple:

"hello, is that the farm equipment supplier? My machine has failed and I'd like you to come and fix it. It's five miles from my house. The Loc8 code is..."

"hello, ambulance? I've just had an accident in my car and my passenger is injured. I don't know what road we're on or near what village, but the Loc8 code is..."

For situations like you have described I think something like http://what3words.com/ would be better solution than Loc8.
The What3Words app is free on an iPhone and works globally.
While I believe the Loc8 iPhone app is a fiver an is Ireland only.

I wouldn't suggest using what3words as a postcode system, it's a different thing for a different purpose.

Trick of the Tail

Any method that's location- rather than address-based would work better than Eircode.

We must remember that Eircode wasn't designed to be useful. It was designed to be monetised. To sell the database to junk-marketers, courier companies etc, and to make it easier to ensure we all pay out 2nd water charge, and any other home-based taxes they can think up.

To return this to a Waterford-connected topic, I do think it's strange that they decided Waterford should be X, not W or WD etc.

Silly.

katydid

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

Any method that's location- rather than address-based would work better than Eircode.

We must remember that Eircode wasn't designed to be useful. It was designed to be monetised. To sell the database to junk-marketers, courier companies etc, and to make it easier to ensure we all pay out 2nd water charge, and any other home-based taxes they can think up.

To return this to a Waterford-connected topic, I do think it's strange that they decided Waterford should be X, not W or WD etc.

Silly.

Everywhere in the country got random codes. Waterford is X, Cork is T. But....wait for it, DUBLIN get to use D. One more reason why I will be boycotting it.

Johnboy1951

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

I'll give you a couple:

"hello, is that the farm equipment supplier? My machine has failed and I'd like you to come and fix it. It's five miles from my house. The Loc8 code is..."

"hello, ambulance? I've just had an accident in my car and my passenger is injured. I don't know what road we're on or near what village, but the Loc8 code is..."

Other country's post codes were developed when there was a need for a way of automating postal sorting, and before the days of GPS.

Here, we could have used the late adoption as an advantage, and introduced a more useful system, but alas government and vested interests have become involved and cocked it up.

Very true.

I would have a preference for

http://www.openpostcode.org/

http://iemap.org/

FishOnABike

MarkK wrote: »

An Eircode does give you a location.
Still no answer on why we need a system no other country in the world needs.

MarkK wrote: »

No answer then on giving me any other country which has a "for location" postal code system?

MarkK wrote: »

Does any other country have such a postcode system?
If nobody else needs one, why do we?

In arguing against a geo-code based system like open postcode, amongst others, you seem to be arguing that eircode both does and doesn't give you a location.

It is quite straightforward eircode does not give any location information.

Eircode no more gives you a location than knowing my PPSN tells you my name, age, address, employer, how much I earned in the last year or what tax I paid. My PPSN can be used by revenue to look up all this information but in itself tells you nothing, it is just a unique tag.

Similarly an Eircode tells you nothing about a location. It can be used to look up a paywalled geodirectory database to return a location but in itself tells you nothing, it is just a unique tag.

Geo-code based systems could have provided all the functionality of the current eircodes with the additional benefits of
- not needing to look up a database to determine the location
- being able to generate a reference for locations not in the geodirectory

We had the opportunity of delivering a more functional and useful postal code system at no additional cost. That opportunity has been squandered.

MarkK

FishOnABike wrote: »

In arguing against a geo-code based system like open postcode, amongst others, you seem to be arguing that eircode both does and doesn't give you a location.

Postcodes are used two main things:
Usage 1: A quick and easy way to give someone the co-ordinates of a location.

Usage 2: A quick and easy way to give someone your address, as in the actual text "Dunromin, Boards Lane, Monvoy, Tramore, Co. Waterford".

If we wanted usage 1 alone, openpostcodes would be perfect, indeed we already had Loc8 and Google maps etc so really, usage 1 was already available.

Usage 2 is something we did not have. To have this you must have a database to look up. The database already existed, An Post's Geodirectory.

Whichever postcode system was chosen would need to be integrated with Geodirectory.

With the UK postcode, if you need to give your address online, you can often just type your postcode and you will get a dropdown list of the addresses registered to that postcode, select from the dropdown and you are done. Simple and accurate.

How would a similar system work with openpostcode?

For an apartment building you may have several homes with the same openpostcode. So you will always have to assume that an openpostcode may relate to more than one home, even though 99% of the time they will not.

With openpostcode a particular home might have several codes covering the house and grounds.
Is only one of the codes "valid" for that address or are the all valid?
Or does every valid openpostcode location have a geodirectory database entry saying which property it is part of?

If we don't have entries for every location, then people can have "valid openpostcodes" (i.e. codes on their property,) which do not have entries in the database. Confusing, right?

There are 2.2 million addresses in Ireland, how many openpostcodes are there?

So if you were only interested in just providing "Usage 2", then Eircodes is far better than openpostcode. Very simple database, one code equals one address.

[Obviously there are currently mistakes in the Geodirectory database, most of these same mistakes would still have been there if openpostcode had been chosen instead of eircode.]

FishOnABike wrote: »

Similarly an Eircode tells you nothing about a location. It can be used to look up a paywalled geodirectory database to return a location but in itself tells you nothing, it is just a unique tag.

As i said above, the paywalled geodirectory database would still be needed whichever postcode system was chosen.