Eircode Anomolies

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Wrong, I'm afraid.


UK: 1.8 million postcodes

Ireland: 2.2 million postcodes

Therefore the Irish postcode to geocode database is larger than the UK's

You said DATABASE

Irish postcode database with all addresses = 88MB

UK postcode database with all addresses = 230MB

Therefore Irish database is smaller in size.


What you meant to say so is "there are more postcodes in Ireland than there are in the UK" what's your point?

Putting a whole load of words in bold doesn't make you right.

Impetus

ukoda wrote: »

I'm not trying to. Read the thread conversation in context and you'll see that someone claimed the Irish database was bigger than the UK one and this a design flaw. I'm only correcting that inaccurate statement.

It is bigger than the British database. The GB database has name of street and buildings 2 to 14 even postcode or 1 to 13 odd postcode = M2 1AB (rubbish code for example purposes).

The Irish postcode database has no precise identity for each building in rural areas - which make up about 50% of addresses. So half the eircode database is a useless fog of information. On the eircode website you can't find an address unless it has a house or farm name or you know exactly where the building is on a map. The eircode database is full of hot air, stupid repetition. It has not been devised by someone who knows how to construct a database.

The exercise is a work of incompetence. No different to a company who creates a database of customers for billing purposes. Assume they have 10 customers called John Murphy in Dublin. Unless it collects the detailed address all they would have is

Customer name John Murphy
Address Dublin.

Capita and the Minister responsible have presided over the shambles which cost about 40 mil EUR. Not as much as an apology.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

You said DATABASE

Irish postcode database with all addresses = 88MB

UK postcode database with all addresses = 230MB

Therefore Irish database is smaller in size.


What you meant to say so is "there are more postcodes in Ireland than there are in the UK" what's your point?

Putting a whole load of words in bold doesn't make you right.

Putting words in bold is a (vain) attempt that you might read them :rolleyes:

Read my post that you quoted. I didn't just say "database". I said "postcode to geocode database". The size of a postcode to geocode database is directly related to the number of postcodes. Addresses have nothing to do with it.

This seems to be important, because it's one of the reasons why DHL said they aren't going to implement eircode - due to the number of individual postcodes in Ireland being greater than in the UK.

Had Eircode been designed hierarchically, even with unique identifiers they could have worked around this by ignoring the final part of the code, and it would still have been useful to them.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Putting words in bold is a (vain) attempt that you might read them :rolleyes:

Read my post that you quoted. I didn't just say "database". I said "postcode to geocode database". The size of a postcode to geocode database is directly related to the number of postcodes. Addresses have nothing to do with it.

This seems to be important, because it's one of the reasons why DHL said they aren't going to implement eircode - due to the number of individual postcodes in Ireland being greater than in the UK.

Had Eircode been designed hierarchically, even with unique identifiers they could have worked around this by ignoring the final part of the code, and it would still have been useful to them.

Oh for god sake. If you want a unique identifier postcode, which we seem to agree we do, then there will always be more postcodes here than UK. No matter if the code is heirarchical or not. You tried to claim that as a design flaw, that some how a heirarchical code would solve. nonsense.

There's absolutely no record anywhere I can find that DHL objected on the grounds of "too many postcodes" where are you getting this from??

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

Oh for god sake. If you want a unique identifier postcode, which we seem to agree we do, then there will always be more postcodes here than UK. No matter if the code is heirarchical or not. You tried to claim that as a design flaw, that some how a heirarchical code would solve. nonsense.

Then you accept you were wrong to say my point was a "factual inaccuracy" then?

If the code were hierarchical, then the equivalent database in this country to the UK's free postcode->geocode mapping, might be one whose size is based on the number of small areas in the country, not the number of individual addressable units. That would be around 30 to 60 thousand, which is much more reasonable for a country the size of Ireland.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Then you accept you were wrong to say my point was a "factual inaccuracy" then?

If the code were hierarchical, then the equivalent database in this country to the UK's free postcode->geocode mapping, might be one whose size is based on the number of small areas in the country, not the number of individual addressable units. That would be around 30 to 60 thousand, which is much more reasonable for a country the size of Ireland.

You were factually inaccurate, if you refer to the size of a database, then it's measured in MB/GB/TB, you claimed the "post code to Geocode database is larger than the UK one"
This is still wrong, take like for like
Irish postcode database with post code and geo's only is 22MB, still smaller than the UK one


If you want to change your statement to "there are more postcode database entries in the Irish database than the UK one" then you'd be factually accurate.

You're confusing "size" with "number of entries"

Impetus

plodder wrote: »

This seems to be important, because it's one of the reasons why DHL said they aren't going to implement eircode - due to the number of individual postcodes in Ireland being greater than in the UK.

Had Eircode been designed hierarchically, even with unique identifiers they could have worked around this by ignoring the final part of the code, and it would still have been useful to them.

Eircocde is not practical for business - big or small. It was designed for bureaucrats, who have unlimited public money, for their use. And it is of use to nobody else really.

If DHL can't see themselves putting Eircode on their global database, I suspect Garmin and other GPS manufacturers will take the same decision.

UPS seem to be on the same line. https://www.ups.com/?Site=Corporate&cookie=ie_en_home&setCookie=yes Enter Germany as sending country, and a postcode field appears, enter IRL as sending country and no mention of postcode. Ditto for Fedex: https://www.fedex.com/ratefinder/standalone?method=originCountryChange

Eircode also poses legal issues for Google and any other web service that might think about converting an Eircode to a point on the map - in terms of privacy laws for one. The provision of a lookup online for a postcode could be the straw that breaks the camel's back in security terms. eg If I operate a Hermes or Louis Vuitton store, and someone hacks into my customer database, which has eircodes, if Google or Garmin or anyone else translates the eircode to a precise location, where a rich customer lives and gets burgled, Capita is part of the problem and is contributorily liable, as is the minister who gave them the particular job. If IRL had a proper postcode - as in 10400 Dublin - it would be simpler and people who have thieving or hacking agendas would be no better off.

One wonders if Capita has public/product liability insurance for their product? Or has the Irish state written a big blank cheque in contractual terms in its agreement with Capita?

Impetus

plodder wrote: »

Then you accept you were wrong to say my point was a "factual inaccuracy" then?

If the code were hierarchical, then the equivalent database in this country to the UK's free postcode->geocode mapping, might be one whose size is based on the number of small areas in the country, not the number of individual addressable units. That would be around 30 to 60 thousand, which is much more reasonable for a country the size of Ireland.

+ Hierarchical codes are easier for the general public to grasp and buy into.

The old German PLZ (before they re-united with "East Germany") followed the railway lines. Each town's postcode was just one number away from the next town down the line. Biggest country in Europe - 4 digit postcode.

the_syco

ukoda wrote: »

That all boils down to opinion though, "more effective" is subjective.

It can't be used for deliveries, as it's not in satnavs, and it can't be used to locate someone, as it's not in satnavs, so I'm at a loss to see what it could be used for?

ukoda

the_syco wrote: »

It can't be used for deliveries, as it's not in satnavs, and it can't be used to locate someone, as it's not in satnavs, so I'm at a loss to see what it could be used for?

It can't YET be used on sat navs

Google confirmed at a conference they are working on implementation.
A major mapping company confirmed on Twitter that they are working to introduce eircode on sat navs.
Eircode themselves are telling us it will be on these things shortly.


It CAN be used for deliveries. Nightline, one of Ireland's largest courier companies are actively using it and support it.

Impetus

the_syco wrote: »

It can't be used for deliveries, as it's not in satnavs, and it can't be used to locate someone, as it's not in satnavs, so I'm at a loss to see what it could be used for?

That's easy - it will be used for government stuff. Central Statistics Office etc.

It is a standard account number for government to point to places in Ireland.

Cost - €40 mil.

They are pretending that it a postcode. But few can remember theirs, and even fewer can remember the postcode of others.

I did a joke Christmas card on my PC with a pic for a few people. One, well educated, intelligent person remarked after seeing the "from Impetus (real name) at X99 RW5H to their family name at X99 Z12Q" - Oh now I know - it is a postcode after some discussion. It took her some time to recognise the object. This person is one of the bridge champions in Ireland. What hope the ordinary man in the street......

X99 RW5H and X99 Z12Q (fake codes) are next door to each other.

Time to fire capita and hang the succession of gov ministers involved with this stupid non-system. The most evil code - next to Iran's code, where you have to get a license to receive mail and get your unique 10 digit postcode.

IR post website: http://www.post.ir/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=1&Site=postportal&Lang=en-US&ItemID=10337&mid=10768

Impetus

ukoda wrote: »

It CAN be used for deliveries. Nightline, one of Ireland's largest courier companies are actively using it and support it.

Who is Nightline? Eircocde's one source of fame?

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

Who is Nightline? Eircocde's one source of fame?

www.google.ie

Impetus

ukoda wrote: »

www.google.ie

Nightline is not listed in Google's 10-K as a subsidiary.

https://investor.google.com/pdf/20141231_google_10K.pdf

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

Nightline is not listed in Google's 10-K as a subsidiary.

https://investor.google.com/pdf/20141231_google_10K.pdf

No. If you want to know who Nighline is. Use google search engine to find out.

Impetus

ukoda wrote: »

No. If you want to know who Nighline is. Use google search engine to find out.

Google search reveals :

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline
http://abc.go.com/shows/nightline
https://twitter.com/Nightline?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightline
https://www.facebook.com/nightline/
http://www.hulu.com/nightline

None in the logistics business.

Perhaps they have a lowwwww Google ranking?

marmurr1916

plodder wrote: »

It doesn't really. Eircode would be objectively better if it were hierarchical. It could do exactly what it does now (unique id etc) but a lot more if it was hierarchical. The reasons for not making it hierarchical are all to do with monetising the system through obfuscating it, and an unproven claim that people "wouldn't like" the idea of a small area based postcode. The latter claim has more to do with making life easy for Eircode rather than making the best system possible.

Unfortunately, and also directly because they didn't do the research beforehand that many people suggested, as to what kind of postcode the public would want, those chickens are coming home to roost through the high level of scepticism about Eircode and the random codes etc.

What is the obsession with making it hierarchical? Why does it need to be hierarchical? Companies that want to group Eircodes can do so in any way they wish, for any legal purpose they wish, without any need for it to be hierarchical. Computer databases render hierarchical postcodes redundant.

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

Google search reveals :

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline
http://abc.go.com/shows/nightline
https://twitter.com/Nightline?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightline
https://www.facebook.com/nightline/
http://www.hulu.com/nightline

None in the logistics business.

Perhaps they have a lowwwww Google ranking?

At this stage I assume you're just trolling me. But in case you genuinely can't figure it out:

Use google Ireland. That is, use the URL www.google.ie and then type in Nightline

It's the very first search result.

If you still can't manage that....

Then just click this link below to find out who Nightline are

www.nightline.ie

marmurr1916

Impetus wrote: »

It is bigger than the British database. The GB database has name of street and buildings 2 to 14 even postcode or 1 to 13 odd postcode = M2 1AB (rubbish code for example purposes).

The Irish postcode database has no precise identity for each building in rural areas - which make up about 50% of addresses. So half the eircode database is a useless fog of information. On the eircode website you can't find an address unless it has a house or farm name or you know exactly where the building is on a map. The eircode database is full of hot air, stupid repetition. It has not been devised by someone who knows how to construct a database.

The exercise is a work of incompetence. No different to a company who creates a database of customers for billing purposes. Assume they have 10 customers called John Murphy in Dublin. Unless it collects the detailed address all they would have is

Customer name John Murphy
Address Dublin.

Capita and the Minister responsible have presided over the shambles which cost about 40 mil EUR. Not as much as an apology.

If all you have is postcodes for your UK customers, you don't have their precise address. You have a list of potential addresses.

On the other hand, if I have the Eircodes of Irish customers, I have the precise address of the customers.

gizmo555

ukoda wrote: »

There's absolutely no record anywhere I can find that DHL objected on the grounds of "too many postcodes" where are you getting this from??

Why We Won’t Use Eircode:

To implement Eircode in its current format, the DHL Express IT infrastructure will require bespoke software development on many internal and external (customer-facing) systems. Unlike the rest of the world’s postcodes, Eircode doesn’t fit into our global IT platform.

In particular, the granularity of the routing key is inefficient due to its large geographic coverage based on the national postal sort centres and in turn becomes redundant. Also the non-sequential unique identifier creates significant logistics and IT challenges. To put this into context, DHL currently has 3.4m postcode-ranges in its databases for all countries in the world that operate a postcode. With Eircode we would need to add a minimum of 2.2m entries just for Ireland which adds its implementation costs as well as risk.

Furthermore, with Eircode’s current format it is not possible to identify an address from just ‘reading’ the postcode. On that basis it will be easier to use the address lines we currently use to-day.

http://www.ftai.ie/export/sites/irel...unications.pdf

marmurr1916

Impetus wrote: »

That's easy - it will be used for government stuff. Central Statistics Office etc.

It is a standard account number for government to point to places in Ireland.

Cost - €40 mil.

They are pretending that it a postcode. But few can remember theirs, and even fewer can remember the postcode of others.

I did a joke Christmas card on my PC with a pic for a few people. One, well educated, intelligent person remarked after seeing the "from Impetus (real name) at X99 RW5H to their family name at X99 Z12Q" - Oh now I know - it is a postcode after some discussion. It took her some time to recognise the object. This person is one of the bridge champions in Ireland. What hope the ordinary man in the street......

X99 RW5H and X99 Z12Q (fake codes) are next door to each other.

Time to fire capita and hang the succession of gov ministers involved with this stupid non-system. The most evil code - next to Iran's code, where you have to get a license to receive mail and get your unique 10 digit postcode.

IR post website: http://www.post.ir/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=1&Site=postportal&Lang=en-US&ItemID=10337&mid=10768

My UK mobile phone number is 07XXX 123456. I have no idea of my next door neighbour's mobile phone number. What is your point? That people don't know their neighbour's Eircodes? So what? :rolleyes: If you'd sent me the email, I'd have recognised both as Eircodes. Likewise if I'd sent it to you. Your neighbour didn't click that the information was Eircodes? Big fúcking deal.

ukoda

gizmo555 wrote: »

Why We Won’t Use Eircode:

To implement Eircode in its current format, the DHL Express IT infrastructure will require bespoke software development on many internal and external (customer-facing) systems. Unlike the rest of the world’s postcodes, Eircode doesn’t fit into our global IT platform.

In particular, the granularity of the routing key is inefficient due to its large geographic coverage based on the national postal sort centres and in turn becomes redundant. Also the non-sequential unique identifier creates significant logistics and IT challenges. To put this into context, DHL currently has 3.4m postcode-ranges in its databases for all countries in the world that operate a postcode. With Eircode we would need to add a minimum of 2.2m entries just for Ireland which adds its implementation costs as well as risk.

Furthermore, with Eircode’s current format it is not possible to identify an address from just ‘reading’ the postcode. On that basis it will be easier to use the address lines we currently use to-day.

http://www.ftai.ie/export/sites/irel...unications.pdf

Fair play, you found it. It's a red herring tho, the number of postcodes would have little or nothing to do with the cost implementation, as discussed, the database is tiny. It's made up of a repeated set of characters, numbers 1 to 9 and the alphabet letters (although not all of them) it would have no possible way of increasing cost of implementation

gizmo555

ukoda wrote: »

Fair play, you found it.

You didn't need to look far, I referenced it in another Eircode thread in this forum to which you've contributed quite a bit yourself.

ukoda wrote: »

It's a red herring tho

Funny how it wasn't a red herring when you believed it was untrue.

ukoda

gizmo555 wrote: »

You didn't need to look far, I referenced it in another Eircode thread in this forum to which you've contributed quite a bit yourself.



Funny how it wasn't a red herring when you believed it was untrue.

You caught me, I didn't look too hard.

It was always a red herring. All I said was I couldn't find reference to them saying it.

My whole argument was that the size or number of postcodes wasn't a blocker to implementation.

clewbays

Impetus wrote: »

If I operate a Hermes or Louis Vuitton store, and someone hacks into my customer database, which has eircodes, if Google or Garmin or anyone else translates the eircode to a precise location, where a rich customer lives and gets burgled, Capita is part of the problem and is contributorily liable

So what do hackers and burglars do in beloved Switzerland after they hack into the Louis Vuitton database? Do they say oh that postcode is not unique and, on principle, we refuse to make use of their non-unique address: The Richman's Villa, 13 Lake Geneva Boulevard and we absolutely refuse to skip the hacking and do a drive-by looking for expensive mansions!!!

marmurr1916

clewbays wrote: »

So what do hackers and burglars do in beloved Switzerland after they hack into the Louis Vuitton database? Do they say oh that postcode is not unique and, on principle, we refuse to make use of their non-unique address: The Richman's Villa, 13 Lake Geneva Boulevard and we absolutely refuse to skip the hacking and do a drive-by looking for expensive mansions!!!

If Impetus is correct, then the compilers of any database which contains unique address information (e.g. 13 Lake Geneva Boulevard) are potentially liable.

In practical terms, the idea that a bunch of hackers intent on burglary would ignore information that enabled them to identify unique addresses such as street addresses, because of their love of non-unique postcodes is rather far-fetched.

Anyway Impetus, when are you heading off? :P

Impetus

gizmo555 wrote: »

Why We Won’t Use Eircode:

To implement Eircode in its current format, the DHL Express IT infrastructure will require bespoke software development on many internal and external (customer-facing) systems. Unlike the rest of the world’s postcodes, Eircode doesn’t fit into our global IT platform.

In particular, the granularity of the routing key is inefficient due to its large geographic coverage based on the national postal sort centres and in turn becomes redundant. Also the non-sequential unique identifier creates significant logistics and IT challenges. To put this into context, DHL currently has 3.4m postcode-ranges in its databases for all countries in the world that operate a postcode. With Eircode we would need to add a minimum of 2.2m entries just for Ireland which adds its implementation costs as well as risk.

Furthermore, with Eircode’s current format it is not possible to identify an address from just ‘reading’ the postcode. On that basis it will be easier to use the address lines we currently use to-day.

http://www.ftai.ie/export/sites/irel...unications.pdf

Nobody is listening. I and others have been saying this for years. Dumb government. Corrupt "civil service".... neither of whom are there to provide an efficient service to the customer.

The routing granularity is a big issue. You have tiny areas with a routing code in Dublin and large areas sharing the same routing code in the rest of the country. There is no consistency. And a random last four characters, to hammer home the lack of utility.

Eircode is an insult to the Irish people, at least those of who have 1g of intelligence.

But ego-centric, bureaucratic Ireland thinks it is bigger than the rest of the world. In terms of database platforms and GPS devices, and much more too. Not dissimilar to the over-priced, dry rot infested houses in Dublin 4 that were changing hands for 40+ mil in 2005. Meanwhile one could buy a large villa with a spacious garden in Cap d'Antibes sharing the same F-06160 postcode with the rest of your neighbours, and the sunshine, for half the cost.

Over-priced postcodes in an over-priced wet dumb country.

Impetus

marmurr1916 wrote: »

If Impetus is correct, then the compilers of any database which contains unique address information (e.g. 13 Lake Geneva Boulevard) are potentially liable.

In practical terms, the idea that a bunch of hackers intent on burglary would ignore information that enabled them to identify unique addresses such as street addresses, because of their love of non-unique postcodes is rather far-fetched.

Anyway Impetus, when are you heading off? :P

Crime has moved from physical breaking in to premises to online crime. This is where postcodes are a weak link in the chain in terms of database joins etc.

TheChizler

A lot of people seem to be critiquing Eircode on how it performs at something it's not designed to do; allow someone to read only the street address and code on an envelope and have the post delivered without some kind of database lookup (references to the benefits of a hierarchical code like the UK's point toward this). This neglects to consider the fact that Eircode is not designed to be used by itself, but in conjunction with other address elements.

The UK'd postcode system was designed half a century ago before a proper addressing system was in place, and database lookups weren't possible for the post office.

In Ireland in the meantime a hierarchical address system was developed by an post which is great at getting an envelope to the right general area, and then depends on local knowledge to get to the property. This solves the problem for 70% of the properties in the country when addressed correctly, but relies on local knowledge for non-unique addresses.

Why discard the already developed system of post towns and local areas, and replace it with a standard hierarchical postcode (which does nothing for non-unique locations) when you can design a code to work in conjunction with elements of this already established and fairly well known address system?

Uniquely identifying the 30% of non-unique addresses was a primary design constraint of Ireland's postcode, so it's straight away going to have to be one code per address. People know their postal address (mostly!) so getting the post to the right area isn't going to be a problem, so why build a hierarchy into it like they had to do in the UK? Since the potential format of the code is now less constrained they have room to build in other features, like making sure that addresses with common address lines can have non-similar codes, which builds huge potential for error correction into it. For instance you could leave out the name or number of a house and it's occupant's surname, spell the town land wrong, and mix up a couple of digits of the code and the intended addresses is completely recoverable as there will only be one address in a similarly spelled small area with a code that is similar to the one provided.

Impetus

clewbays wrote: »

So what do hackers and burglars do in beloved Switzerland after they hack into the Louis Vuitton database? Do they say oh that postcode is not unique and, on principle, we refuse to make use of their non-unique address: The Richman's Villa, 13 Lake Geneva Boulevard and we absolutely refuse to skip the hacking and do a drive-by looking for expensive mansions!!!

I just ask myself, if you are an ordinary citizen with no vested interest in Eircode, what motivates you to post something like this? As an aside there is no street in the Swiss address database called "Lake Geneva Boulevard". It sounds like something in Florida or some other US state where they copy European place names big time.