The History of the Red Hand

riffmongous

For me growing up in the south-east, the Red Hand was always a distinctly Gaelic Symbol, the Red Hand of O'Neill fighting against the english in the 9 Years War. But when you look at Northern Ireland it's clearly used by many different groups across the communities, from dissident republicans, to the GAA, to the flag of the NI government, to murder gang the Red Hand Commando. Does anyone know a bit more about the history of the symbol (beyond what can be read on wiki) and how it came to be used by the Unionist and Loyalists?

Let's try to keep the politics out of it btw

paul71

I do believe the last of the O'Neill chieftains who did not join the Flight of the Earls converted to Protestantism. That may have contributed to the spread of the use of the Clan symbol to Unionism.

I will dig a little to see if I can find an immediate link.

riffmongous

Phelim O'Neill who was involved in the 1641 rebellion was one of those O' Neills and a catholic too I thought? He's the last of the O'Neills that I can remember who lived in Ulster

paul71

riffmongous wrote: »

Phelim O'Neill who was involved in the 1641 rebellion was one of those O' Neills and a catholic too I thought? He's the last of the O'Neills that I can remember who lived in Ulster

There is Henry O'Neill of Shane Castle who I am reading up on right now. His desenddants became the Viscount O'Neills who were protestant but I don't know at what stage they converted Religion. The male line died out in 1841, but a daughter survived to Marry a Reverend William Chichester, there desendants revived the use of the surname O'Neill by royal pardon. The title eventually passed to Terence Marne O'Neill, Baron O'Neill of the Maine and Prime minister of Northern Ireland.

riffmongous

Interesting alright, I forgot all about Terence O' Neill

paul71

Interestingly enough if you had been in Omagh last Sunday to watch Tyrone play Meath, you could raise a few eyebrows by mentioning that Meath would have had as much right to attach the symbol to their county flag as Tyrone have.

The southern O'Neill based in Meath were disposesed by the Normans and this happened prior to the convention of adopting the clan name as a surname.

paul71

http://www.rds.ie/cat_historic_member_detail.jsp?itemID=1100937&item_name=

Charles Henry St John O’Neill (1779-1841), K.P., Shane’s Castle, Country Antrim, created Earl O’Neill in 1800, was elected a life member of the Dublin Society in 1814. His proposers were Lord Frankfort and Thomas Townshend. Lord O’Neill presented rose trees to the R.D.S. botanic garden on 20 February 1817. As a youth he witnessed the killing of his father by a rebel (who was also a tenant) during the 1798 insurrection. He was active in the Orange Order and was elected grand master of the Orange Grand Lodge in March 1824. He was elected second grand master of the revived order in 1828. He died unmarried in 1841 and his earldom became extinct. Shane’s Castle, near Randalstown, County Antrim, was built in the late seventeenth and early eighteenth century. Extended in 1815, it burnt down in 1816 and was rebuilt in the 1860s. The O’Neill estate consisted of 5,648 acres in counties Londonderry and Tyrone in 1876. - See more at: http://www.rds.ie/cat_historic_member_detail.jsp?itemID=1100937&item_name=#sthash.nt8vbusr.dpuf

Sorry, for the drip feeding here but this Henry O'Neill was the Last male in the line I spoke of earlier. He was a descendant of Henry O'Neill who converted to the Anglican faith sometime in the 1620s. This family were chief of the Clandebhoy O'Neills based in Antrim, not the Tyrone O'Neills although confusingly they were conferred with the title Earls of Tyrone, the split with the Tyrone O'Neills, and the O'Neills of the Fews (Armagh) happened in the 12th Century.

It is also interesting to note the death of his Father in 1798 at the hands of a rebel. Given where this happened (Antrim) the rebel was probably a Presbyterian United Irishman, who killed a Church of Ireland hereditary Gaelic Unionist Prince, whose son become Grand Master of the Orange order and Great Great Grandson became Prime minister of Northern Ireland.

Ain't we all livin' in a confusing little Island.

Bog Man 1

This is the same story my father told me about the Red Hand
It is generally accepted that this Irish Gaelic symbol originated in pagan times and was first associated with the mythical figure Labraid Lámh Dhearg or Labraid Lámderg (Labraid of the Red Hand) of the Fenian Cycle of Irish mythology.[1][3]

According to one myth, the kingdom of Ulster had at one time no rightful heir. Because of this it was agreed that a boat race should take place and that "whosoever's hand is the first to touch the shore of Ireland, so shall he be made the king".

One potential king so desired the kingship that, upon seeing that he was losing the race, he cut off his hand and threw it to the shore—thus winning the kingship. The hand is most likely red to represent the fact that it would have been covered in blood. According to some versions of the story, the king who cut off his hand belonged to the Uí Néill clan, which apparently explains its association with them. Another variation of this story concludes that it was none other than Niall of the Nine Hostages who severed his own hand in order to win his crown from his brother.[citation needed]

A different myth tells of two giants who engaged in battle. One had his hand cut off by the other, and a red imprint of the hand was left on the rocks.[citation ne

dubhthach

paul71 wrote: »

Interestingly enough if you had been in Omagh last Sunday to watch Tyrone play Meath, you could raise a few eyebrows by mentioning that Meath would have had as much right to attach the symbol to their county flag as Tyrone have.

The southern O'Neill based in Meath were disposesed by the Normans and this happened prior to the convention of adopting the clan name as a surname.

Well not really Uí Néill ≠ Ua Néill (where Ua = Ó)

Different Níall's and all (which raises the question about how the name Niall should be pronounced!)

paul71

Bog Man 1 wrote: »

According to one myth, the kingdom of Ulster had at one time no rightful heir. Because of this it was agreed that a boat race should take place and that "whosoever's hand is the first to touch the shore of Ireland, so shall he be made the king".

One potential king so desired the kingship that, upon seeing that he was losing the race, he cut off his hand and threw it to the shore—thus winning the kingship. The hand is most likely red to represent the fact that it would have been covered in blood. According to some versions of the story, the king who cut off his hand belonged to the Uí Néill clan, which apparently explains its association with them. Another variation of this story concludes that it was none other than Niall of the Nine Hostages who severed his own hand in order to win his crown from his brother.

This is the story that I am most familiar with. What I find interesting is the hand that is depicted in different symbols. The older Gaelic Clan symbol depicts the left hand, which makes sense if we follow the story quoted as a man would use his dominant hand to cut off the other. The modern symbols used in the Ulster flag, the GAA county crests and by Ulster rugby depict the right hand. I have no idea why this is or when the change occurred.

LordSutch

Sometimes on a yellow background and sometimes in a white background!

What's the significance of different backgrounds?

dubhthach

One reflects the coat of arms of the Walter De Burgh' (eg. Burkes) who was 2nd Lord of Connacht and 1st Earl of Ulster (Ulster in this case means Antrim/Down eg. rements of Kingdom of Ulaidh)

White background obviously reflection of Cross of St. George, as far as I know the "Ulster Banner" as Northern Ireland flag is called only dates to early 1920's. Don't think there was tradition of white background flag (with redhand) before then, I do see some online UVF flags that have Cross of St. George in the upper corner (think how Aussie flag has Union Jack in upper left)

dubhthach

paul71 wrote: »

This is the story that I am most familiar with. What I find interesting is the hand that is depicted in different symbols. The older Gaelic Clan symbol depicts the left hand, which makes sense if we follow the story quoted as a man would use his dominant hand to cut off the other. The modern symbols used in the Ulster flag, the GAA county crests and by Ulster rugby depict the right hand. I have no idea why this is or when the change occurred.

Well I don't know what the source for this image is (wiki claims National Library of Ireland), but it would appear right hand was used since at least the 14th century: (of course I don't know if this is copy of seal, or imprint from such a seal, so could be either way!)



Aodh Reamhair (Aodh Mór) mac Domhnaill: 1345-1364

Reamhair = fat, so perhaps it's good reason he was also called Aodh Mór

Of course it's possible that the use of Hand as a symbol by the Ua Néill (Ó Néill) family is linked to concept of "Hand of God" as shown for example on Muiredach's cross in Monasterboice

laoch na mona

loyalists have been know to use cu chulainn as well (ulster against the rest of Ireland thing) symbolism in the north is messy and often nonsensical

feargale

Bog Man 1 wrote: »

This is the same story my father told me about the Red Hand
It is generally accepted that this Irish Gaelic symbol originated in pagan times and was first associated with the mythical figure Labraid Lámh Dhearg or Labraid Lámderg (Labraid of the Red Hand) of the Fenian Cycle of Irish mythology.[1][3]

According to one myth, the kingdom of Ulster had at one time no rightful heir. Because of this it was agreed that a boat race should take place and that "whosoever's hand is the first to touch the shore of Ireland, so shall he be made the king".

One potential king so desired the kingship that, upon seeing that he was losing the race, he cut off his hand and threw it to the shore—thus winning the kingship. The hand is most likely red to represent the fact that it would have been covered in blood. According to some versions of the story, the king who cut off his hand belonged to the Uí Néill clan, which apparently explains its association with them. Another variation of this story concludes that it was none other than Niall of the Nine Hostages who severed his own hand in order to win his crown from his brother.[citation needed]

I have heard this version too. It appears that a similar story exists in Belgium and is supposed to be the origin of the name Antwerp, or Antwerpen in Flemish, hand werpen = to throw a hand or throwing a hand.

dubhthach

I've never heard of Níall Noígiallach having cut off his hand, the story that gives him precedence over his three older half-brothers is recounted in Echtra mac nEchach Muigmedóin (The adventurs of sons of Eochaid Mugmedón).

The old hag guarding the well been in reality the goddess of soverignity, and the bould Níall not only accepted her request for a kiss but also slept with her (of course she changed herself from old hag to beautiful woman in process )

A version of it can be read here:
http://iso.ucc.ie/Echtra-mac/Echtra-mac-text.pdf

"Tri-lingulal" as it appears to be in "Middle Irish", Modern Irish, and English ("Middle Irish" covers period 1000-1200, txt might be bit later, and thus be transitory to "Early Modern Irish" -- which is distinct stage in it's own right)

What's notable is they give one of Níall's half-brothers as "Brian" which is anarchonistic, it should be Brion (his descendants been the Uí Briúin of Connacht), the fact that it states that none of his descendants would hold the high-kingship would kinda make the text pre-date the 12th century, when we have two Ua Conchobhair high-kings (Uí Briúin Aí)

dubhthach

More details on Echtra mac nEchach Muigmedóin here:

http://vanhamel.nl/codecs/Echtra_mac_nEchach_Muigmed%C3%B3in

ChicagoJoe

dubhthach wrote: »

I've never heard of Níall Noígiallach having cut off his hand, the story that gives him precedence over his three older half-brothers is recounted in Echtra mac nEchach Muigmedóin (The adventurs of sons of Eochaid Mugmedón).

The old hag guarding the well been in reality the goddess of soverignity, and the bould Níall not only accepted her request for a kiss but also slept with her (of course she changed herself from old hag to beautiful woman in process )

A version of it can be read here:
http://iso.ucc.ie/Echtra-mac/Echtra-mac-text.pdf

"Tri-lingulal" as it appears to be in "Middle Irish", Modern Irish, and English ("Middle Irish" covers period 1000-1200, txt might be bit later, and thus be transitory to "Early Modern Irish" -- which is distinct stage in it's own right)

What's notable is they give one of Níall's half-brothers as "Brian" which is anarchonistic, it should be Brion (his descendants been the Uí Briúin of Connacht), the fact that it states that none of his descendants would hold the high-kingship would kinda make the text pre-date the 12th century, when we have two Ua Conchobhair high-kings (Uí Briúin Aí)

The Níall Noígiallach story is also the one I heard of and became the symbol of the O'Neill clan.

dubhthach

Given concept of "physical perfection" required for a king, of course cutting off one's hand would make you illegible for kingship, one reason you often see accounts of men blinding/castrating their brothers so as to exclude them from election as King etc. Of course the bould Níall probably never spent much time in what we consider Ulster. Given that the saga tradition has it that his three son's conquered the "Northern Uí Néill" kingdom of In Tuaisceart ("The North" , in = an -- Old Irish) / Aileach from the Ulaidh, driving them back to east of the Bann, where the province of Ulaidh would survive until been conquered by John De Courcy (with creation of "Earl of Ulster" title).

Níall if he actually did exist probably was based in Upper Shannon area.

DanielODonnell

It was generally the symbol of clan O'Neill and the sub clans like O'Kane and MacNeill even stretching over to Scottish clans. In modern times it has been hijacked by Ulster Unionists and County Tyrone/Tyrone GAA.

The O'Neill kings held land all over Ulster and in east Ireland too.

A Tyrone fellow recently said online that it belongs to county Tyrone (counties didn't exist in gaelic Ireland) and that Eoghain O'Neill was on Lough Neagh and threw his hand to Tyrone on the Lough shore, the real myth is that a king threw his hand to Ulster from the north coast as Eoghain MacNeill (not O'Neill) was from Inishowen/Derry city and the Ui Neill spread from west to east at the time, not from west to east as the prior myth suggests. I have never read anyway that it was actually Eoghain MacNeill in the myth anyway.

Another point is that the original Irish tri-colour had a red hand in the middle.

DanielODonnell

I also heard a story about a local man who got a red hand tattooed on him to make the local loyalists think that we had converted to Protestanism for some reason, the word stupid isn't strong enough for that.