Agency asking for money to retain the 1.5 month deposit we put down a year ago?

szita2000

Hi Guys.

Quick question. I just received an e-mail from our agency explaining that since our lease will become a section 4 the landlord is increasing the rent by 50 euros.
Fair enough on a 1450 we already pay.
Also the agency itself is seeking 75 euro to "to maintain the security deposit at one and one half month’s rent."

Not the 75 euro but they are such a lousy company that I wouldn't like to pay that if I don't have to.
Can they increase the security deposit which is already standing at 1.5 month's rent - (€ 2175)?

Paulw

Why is the agency seeking money from you? They should be seeking money from the landlord.

They already have an obligation "to maintain the security deposit".

pwurple

Why does switching to section 4 increase the rent?

I've never done that to my tenants... am I missing a trick?

szita2000

Thanks for the responses.

They sent us a letter a few weeks ago explaining that since our lease will be up soon, we can choose to become section 4 tenants, or take out a new lease.

Since we are not happy with the management company (We still waiting on works to be carried out what we have been promised when we moved in in last August) we decided to go with the section 4.

Now they increasing the rent, And they looking for 75 euros.

Just wonder if I should challenge the rent increase and the fee? I looked at the rental prices and they are similar to ours, BUT Furnished.

Michael D Not Higgins

Ok so here's the story. A Part 4 tenancy (not section 4) gives you more flexibility to leave and thus leaves the landlord more likely to have to replace you over the next year. To offset their risk they have suggested you can take a fixed term lease at current rate or pay a premium for Part 4.

€50/month may or may not be allowed, depending on market rate and whether it has been 12 months since the last rent review or start of the tenancy, whichever is most recent. Are other places similar to your new price or your old price?

The agency then is looking to increase the deposit held to match the new rent amount to 1.5 month's rent. I wouldn't have a major problem with this as long as it's explicitly detailed and a receipt is given for the deposit paid.

szita2000

I see. So the 75 euro they asking for is 50 x 1.5 to add it to the security deposit.

In that sense it is not the end of the world.

Thanks for all your comments and advice!

foggy_lad

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Ok so here's the story. A Part 4 tenancy (not section 4) gives you more flexibility to leave and thus leaves the landlord more likely to have to replace you over the next year. To offset their risk they have suggested you can take a fixed term lease at current rate or pay a premium for Part 4.

€50/month may or may not be allowed, depending on market rate and whether it has been 12 months since the last rent review or start of the tenancy, whichever is most recent. Are other places similar to your new price or your old price?

The agency then is looking to increase the deposit held to match the new rent amount to 1.5 month's rent. I wouldn't have a major problem with this as long as it's explicitly detailed and a receipt is given for the deposit paid.

To me the way they worded their letter would mean they want the tenant to pay them €75 for holding the security deposit! they didn't mention that it was increasing and they might also have increased the rent without the knowledge or instruction from the landlord, they might be just skimming more from the tenant to boost what they get from the Landlord!

Michael D Not Higgins

foggy_lad wrote: »

To me the way they worded their letter would mean they want the tenant to pay them €75 for holding the security deposit! they didn't mention that it was increasing and they might also have increased the rent without the knowledge or instruction from the landlord, they might be just skimming more from the tenant to boost what they get from the Landlord!

Where the rent goes is not really the OP's business. If there's any dispute it can be taken to the PRTB but whether the landlord instructed it or not is of no consequence.

The way I read it was they're maintaining it at 1.5 month's rent so need 1.5 times the increase to keep it in line with the new rent amount.

spaceHopper

If rents go down will they refund part of the deposit, when ours did they didn't. I'll tell them OK to the rent increase but the deposit remains as is.

miezekatze

I've had rent increases and reductions in the past, none of this ever affected the deposit. I would only pay the increased rent, but not the additional deposit.

awec

You're under no obligation to pay an increased deposit.

Our letting agency tried this and we refused.

davo10

awec wrote: »

You're under no obligation to pay an increased deposit.

Our letting agency tried this and we refused.

Unless of course your contract states that the tenant is required to pay a deposit equal to one and a half months rent.

What's the big issue here? If the rent hasn't been increased within the past year and the new rent reflects rental rates in the area (op isn't objecting to the new rental rate, just the increased deposit) then the LL. has every right to increase the rent and if the tenancy contract states (as most do) the level of deposit required then it would seem proper to request a deposit which matches the new monthly rental rate.

awec

davo10 wrote: »

Unless of course your contract states that the tenant is required to pay a deposit equal to one and a half months rent.

What's the big issue here? If the rent hasn't been increased within the past year and the new rent reflects rental rates in the area (op isn't objecting to the new rental rate, just the increased deposit) then the LL. has every right to increase the rent and if the tenancy contract states (as most do) the level of deposit required then it would seem proper to request a deposit which matches the new monthly rental rate.

At the time of paying the deposit initially, which is not the same as the deposit being reviewed when the rent is reviewed. Reviewing the deposit amount is a change in the terms of the tenancy and you are well within your rights to refuse. Just because a landlord increases the rent amount doesn't mean they can just ask for more deposit to ensure the initial 1.5 ratio is maintained.

davo10

awec wrote: »

At the time of paying the deposit initially, which is not the same as the deposit being reviewed when the rent is reviewed. Reviewing the deposit amount is a change in the terms of the tenancy and you are well within your rights to refuse. Just because a landlord increases the rent amount doesn't mean they can just ask for more deposit to ensure the initial 1.5 ratio is maintained.

If you are contracted to pay a certain amount in rent per month and a deposit equal to that amount, that contract ends at term end. The tenent may then assume part 4 rights but if certain criteria are met, the monthly rental can be increased and consequently the deposit increased to equal the new monthly rate, I'm open to correction if you can show me a link that says otherwise. A contract will usually clearly state that the deposit is linked to the rent paid eg equal to one month/1.5 month/3 months.

awec

davo10 wrote: »

If you are contracted to pay a certain amount in rent per month and a deposit equal to that amount, that contract ends at term end. The tenent may then assume part 4 rights but if certain criteria are met, the monthly rental can be increased and consequently the deposit increased to equal the new monthly rate, I'm open to correction if you can show me a link that says otherwise. A contract will usually clearly state that the deposit is linked to the rent paid eg equal to one month/1.5 month/3 months.

You can't change lease agreements without the agreement of both parties. There is a specific provision in the RTA to make an exception for rent.

Wording the deposit on the lease as a ratio instead of a figure does not get around this. The landlord cannot demand you give them more euros as a deposit, to do so is a change of lease terms and you can refuse.

davo10

awec wrote: »

You can't change lease agreements without the agreement of both parties. There is a specific provision in the RTA to make an exception for rent.

Wording the deposit on the lease as a ratio instead of a figure does not get around this. The landlord cannot demand you give them more euros as a deposit, to do so is a change of lease terms and you can refuse.

Link please to show that deposit cannot be raised in line with rent increase.

Again, most tenancy contracts state that deposit equals one or more months rent. Rent goes up, deposit goes up in line with rental rate, it is linked by the terms of the contract. So put up a link please.

awec

davo10 wrote: »

Link please to show that deposit cannot be raised in line with rent increase.

Again, most tenancy contracts state that deposit equals one or more months rent. Rent goes up, deposit goes up in line with rental rate, it is linked by the terms of the contract. So put up a link please.

That's not how it works.

You have to provide me a link to say that it's allowed. You cannot change a lease without agreement of both parties. The only exception is cases where this is specifically called out in the RTA. Rent is one area called out in the RTA, it makes absolutely no mention of deposit review.

Again, specifying a ratio in the lease instead of an exact figure doesn't matter. Just because rent goes up DOES NOT mean that the landlord has the right to insist this ratio is maintained with the new rent rate. They cannot do this as there is no provision in the RTA to allow them to insist on a larger deposit.

davo10

awec wrote: »

That's not how it works.

You have to provide me a link to say that it's allowed. You cannot change a lease without agreement of both parties. The only exception is cases where this is specifically called out in the RTA. Rent is one area called out in the RTA, it makes absolutely no mention of deposit review.

Again, specifying a ratio in the lease instead of an exact figure doesn't matter. Just because rent goes up DOES NOT mean that the landlord has the right to insist this ratio is maintained with the new rent rate. They cannot do this as there is no provision in the RTA to allow them to insist on a larger deposit.

Again, op's contract states that the deposit is 1.5 times rent, the contract is now determined, rent has now increased to market rate therefore deposit can increase as per the deposit clause in the contract signed, which is 1.5 times new rate. It's there in the contract, again you provide no link which prohibits this, put it up there for us all to see.

Sarn

If the tenant moves to Part IV there is no contract, so I can't see how it can be enforced. I have never been required to alter my deposit, up or down over the course of my tenancies.

awec

davo10 wrote: »

Again, op's contract states that the deposit is 1.5 times rent, the contract is now determined, rent has now increased to market rate therefore deposit can increase as per the deposit clause in the contract signed, which is 1.5 times new rate. It's there in the contract, again you provide no link which prohibits this, put it up there for us all to see.

No, it CANNOT!

Just because it says "deposit is 1.5 times rent" does not mean that deposit will ALWAYS be 1.5 times rent.

It means when the tenant initially signed their lease they agreed to pay AT THAT TIME 1.5 times rent as a deposit. They DID NOT agree to maintain this 1.5 ratio forever in the event of a rent increase.

Landlords are only allowed to ask for more money for rent, as specified very clearly in the RTA. There is absolutely no section, point or sentence in the RTA that allows a landlord to demand an increased deposit.

You are thinking of it backwards. I do not need to provide a link that explicitly prohibits it, YOU need to provide a link that states that under the terms of the RTA the landlord is allowed to demand an increased deposit after a rent review. If it's not explicitly called out then it can't happen without the consent of both parties. The fact the lease states a ratio instead of a value doesn't matter at all.

The only part of a tenancy agreement that can change without the agreement of the tenant is the rent value. That is it. This has no knock-on effect on any deposit value.

davo10

awec wrote: »

No, it CANNOT!


They DID NOT agree to maintain this 1.5 ratio forever in the event of a rent increase.
.

Actually he did, when he signed a contract agreeing to a deposit of 1.5 times the monthly rent. A term contract no longer exists but a rental contract does with the term replaced by part 4 entitlements. If you check guidelines on deposits on threshold or citizens advice websites, you will see that it is typically equivalent but not exclusively limited to one months rent, this is used to pay rent arrears and as rent is usually paid monthly it stands to reason that the deposit should reflect any change in the rental rate. The RTA is not exhaustive and refers only to deposit guidelines, it does not refer to nor prohibit deposit increases at times when rent increases.

Again, the op agreed to a deposit of 1:5 times the monthly rent and this thread would be a lot shorter if you could quote the section of the Act which prohibits an increase in the deposit required when rent is legally increased. Simply quote the relevant section and I will bow to your superior knowledge on the matter.

awec

davo10 wrote: »

Actually he did, when he signed a contract agreeing to a deposit of 1.5 times the monthly rent. A term contract no longer exists but a rental contract does with the term replaced by part 4 entitlements. If you check guidelines on deposits on threshold or citizens advice websites, you will see that it is typically equivalent but not exclusively to one months rent, this is used to pay rent arrears and as rent is usually paid monthly it stands to reason that the deposit should reflect any change in the rental rate. The RTA is not exhaustive and refers only to deposit guidelines, it does not refer to nor prohibit deposit increases at times when rent increases.

Again, the op agreed to a deposit of 1:5 times the monthly rent and this thread would be a lot shorter if you could quote the section of the Act which prohibits an increase in the deposit required when rent is legally increased. Simply quote the relevant section and I will bow to your superior knowledge on the matter.

You keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Here it is, as simply as I can possible put it:

1. "The tenant will pay a deposit of 1.5 times the monthly rent" DOES NOT EQUATE TO " the tenant will maintain a deposit of 1.5 times the monthly rent, to be reviewed upon each rent review". Are you honestly telling me you can't understand the difference here? You sign a lease saying you'll pay 1.5 months deposit. Your rent is 100 euro. You pay 150 euro. Done, dusted. Rent goes up 1 year later to 200 euro, you still paid 1.5 times the rent WHEN YOU SIGNED. You are absolutely NOT breaking the lease here.

2. For the 1000th time, the onus is on YOU to show me where it says a landlord can demand an increased deposit. The thread would be shorter if you could wrap your head around this.

The fact that deposit is usually 1 months rent is a coincidence. A landlord can't just turn around and say he is increasing the deposit cause it absolutely must cover a months rent, what a load of nonsense.


I have been through this with my own letting agency. Our rent went up and they asked for more deposit but in the end we did NOT have to pay it. Anyway, I'm done with this one.

davo10

awec wrote: »

You keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Here it is, as simply as I can possible put it:

1. "The tenant will pay a deposit of 1.5 times the monthly rent" DOES NOT EQUATE TO " the tenant will maintain a deposit of 1.5 times the monthly rent, to be reviewed upon each rent review". Are you honestly telling me you can't understand the difference here? You sign a lease saying you'll pay 1.5 months deposit. Your rent is 100 euro. You pay 150 euro. Done, dusted. Rent goes up 1 year later to 200 euro, you still paid 1.5 times the rent WHEN YOU SIGNED. You are absolutely NOT breaking the lease here.

2. For the 1000th time, the onus is on YOU to show me where it says a landlord can demand an increased deposit. The thread would be shorter if you could wrap your head around this.

The fact that deposit is usually 1 months rent is a coincidence. A landlord can't just turn around and say he is increasing the deposit cause it absolutely must cover a months rent, what a load of nonsense.


I have been through this with my own letting agency. Our rent went up and they asked for more deposit but in the end we did NOT have to pay it. Anyway, I'm done with this one.

Ok, I'm going to use your example to try and make it as simple as possible for you to understand. Say the Op stays there for 10 years and the rental goes up year on year as permitted, as the original deposit is 1.5 times original rent, after 10 years the deposit is significantly less than the one month 1.5 month rental arrears and damage/unpaid bills it was designed to cover. I think you are misinformed if you think such a situation is acceptable or expected. I think you should read the act you are referring to carefully and then post, there is nothing in it precluding the deposit keeping pace with the rent.

athtrasna

Enough of the bickering please. Take it to PM if you wish to continue

Mod