Marathon 3 weeks after Ironman?

The Davestator

Looking for advice from more experienced people than me!

I'm doing IM Barcelona on 4th October and was thinking of doing Dublin Marathon on 26th Oct. I understand that everyone recovers at different speeds, but has anyone ever done a marathon so close to an IM? Did Zurich last year (first IM) and cant remember how I felt 3 weeks later!

The reason I want to do it is because I will be fit, light and perhaps able to post a PB. But... I may be wrecked still and fade after 1 mile.

Thanks

RacoonQueen

There is not a chance in hell I would be able to run a marathon PB if I was to do a marathon this weekend. I could do one, but I'd say it'd be a good bit slower than my pb and that would be 3 weeks post IM for me.

Though I know we do have a boardsie who did do it recently...not a pb but a marathon 3(?) weeks post IM.

Oryx

In my experience the few weeks after you have a bit of a burst of energy, but without rest this fades to a bit of a downer by week 3. I went straight into marathon training after my first IM, (July - Oct timescale) and burnt out pretty spectacularly after the marathon.

Its possible I think, but you may not do yourself any favours for the months after both.

shotgunmcos

Did this in 2011. Marathon was about 6 weeks after I toasted myself in an IM. I blew up at about 14 miles. I didn't feel it from the start though but I had commited and flown over. I was gutted. Different for different folks though. No doubt having teh capacity to do a marathon 3 weeks after an IM is there provided adequate rest. I wouldn't be gunning for a time though..

StaggerLee

A member of our club (IM Barcelona then DCM) did this last year, he looked happy on Foster Avenue when I seen him :-0. Barcelona was his 2nd IM of the year. That kind of carry on isn't for everyone though.

griffin100

No science behind this, just my experience / opinion.

I physically recover from an IM after a week or so and can get back into light training, but for a few weeks after an IM my heart rate is very elevated for the effort. I put this down to the fact that my heart is the only muscle that is working hard for my entire IM (at least twice it's normal rate), and like my other muscles it takes time to recover, it's just that it takes a lot longer than say my legs to do so.

I personally would be cautious of a PB effort marathon 3 weeks after an IM, but that's just me.

NeedsTraining

I'm doing IM Barcelona also and planning on running DCM 3 weeks later.
However, I won't be remotely near going for a PB. While everyone is different, I think you will be putting your body under too much stress.

I'm going out there to enjoy it after hopefully getting what I want out of Barcelona.

Best of luck with the training, hope its going well so far for you.

The Davestator

Thanks very much for the opinions and advice. I suppose its worth a €70 gamble. If I feel tired, I'll just jog along and enjoy it, if I feel OK, I'll keep going I suppose! Or, I'll just cycle to the top of Nutley lane and hand out jelly babies like the last few years:)

It should be said that my current PB is very slow, done at +15kg so its not a very high bar!

Enduro

Recovery is a very specific thing. You're the only one who can really answer your own question. It's certainly do-able though if your well enough trained... I've managed more extreme than that in past (24 hour running world champs, followed by a PB for running the wicklow way 2 weeks later, followed by a PB for the mourne way ultra (very hilly double marathon) two weeks later again).

shotgunmcos

Enduro wrote: »

Recovery is a very specific thing. You're the only one who can really answer your own question. It's certainly do-able though if your well enough trained... I've managed more extreme than that in past (24 hour running world champs, followed by a PB for running the wicklow way 2 weeks later, followed by a PB for the mourne way ultra (very hilly double marathon) two weeks later again).

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

Don't listen to him .... he doesn't talk sense ! :pac:

peter kern

It should be said that my current PB is very slow, done at +15kg so its not a very high bar![/QUOTE]

without that info your question was not useful and any previous answers were not useful
Ask a bad question and you get bad answers ;-)

with the quoted info you can certainly run a pb
Is it a wise decision again, nobody can answer with the info you give so far .

The Davestator

Great stuff. I suppose my original question was less about the pb and more about recovery and hoping that lots of people would have done something similar! RQ advice is obviously very relevant as her experience is so recent. IM barca is the big one this year and all goals are geared towards it. It would be nice to 'kill 2 birds with 1 stone' though by doing a decent mara off IM training!
70 euro entry for dublin till the end of the month so ill probably just sign up and play it by ear.

Thanks again for all the opinions

Oryx

I thought the issue was more 'is this a good idea' rather than 'will i do well'. I think Daves approach is a good one - play it by ear, listen to how you feel.

Kurt_Godel

Oryx wrote: »

I thought the issue was more 'is this a good idea' rather than 'will i do well'. I think Daves approach is a good one - play it by ear, listen to how you feel.

"Is it a good idea" of course not. "Will I do well" yes if you are looking for a fatties pb.

Distance junkies- it's easy to do slow and long and often, harder to do fast and long and often, harder still to do fastest and long and often.

Oryx

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

"Is it a good idea" of course not. "Will I do well" yes if you are looking for a fatties pb.

Distance junkies- it's easy to do slow and long and often, harder to do fast and long and often, harder still to do fastest and long and often.

The only one who can do the latter is Enduro. He does distance junkie quite well.

pgibbo

I know plenty of people that have done IM Wales or Barcelona and went on to do DCM after. It's very doable. I only know one that has gone sub 3 after doing Barcelona though. To Kurt's point, people like that are few and far between.

tunney

pgibbo wrote: »

I know plenty of people that have done IM Wales or Barcelona and went on to do DCM after. It's very doable. I only know one that has gone sub 3 after doing Barcelona though. To Kurt's point, people like that are few and far between.

My old coach always said "you cannot do a good marathon off a season of triathlon training". So three weeks after or not if you listen to him its not going to go great for you.

Kurt_Godel

tunney wrote: »

My old coach always said "you cannot do a good marathon off a season of triathlon training". So three weeks after or not if you listen to him its not going to go great for you.

A guy I swim with has been having a great early tri season, podium positions and getting faster. He's after a fast Dublin marathon though, and stopped his tri training a month ago for this very reason.

shotgunmcos

A mate of mine went 2:5x after a tri season. Ditched the tri season prelude and has already gone 2:35 this year as a warm up for DCM

The hard biking, TTing and multiple races take their toll
A first IM takes its toll
What toll? Who knows. Maybe worth going there to find out

kingQuez

Personally I wouldn't be able to plan to give my best effort at a marathon 3 weeks after an IM, it would just compromise how hard I'd push in the IM, and give me a justification for slacking off on race day "oh, this is going ok, im a bit tired, my knee is a bit sore, and i do have to do that marathon in 3 weeks.. lets just walk this little bit here". I wouldn't want to give myself that opportunity for an excuse at a low moment if the IM was my A goal for the year.

That said... this years IM didn't go to plan once out on the run, ending up with me walking a good lot of it. I did a marathon 3 weeks later which I'd entered with no expectations other than to get around and hopefully enjoy a fun day. I was fairly well recovered, obviously hadn't beaten my body up too much on the IM run with all the walking, but was still ~13mins slower than my marathon PB (which I got 5months after an IM). Had a great day though and really enjoyed it.

I'd keep my focus on the IM, enter the marathon but forget about it till the week after the IM race and see how you're feeling.

bryangiggsy

What's your marathon pb ? What time did you do in Zurich ? What time are you hoping to do in Barcelona?

zico10

Enduro wrote: »

Recovery is a very specific thing. You're the only one who can really answer your own question. It's certainly do-able though if your well enough trained... I've managed more extreme than that in past (24 hour running world champs, followed by a PB for running the wicklow way 2 weeks later, followed by a PB for the mourne way ultra (very hilly double marathon) two weeks later again).

Would you have ran a marathon PB though? That was the question in fairness. And if you think you could have, then I'd suggest your current marathon PB doesn't reflect your real potential.

hunkymonkey

I did Roth & Barca last year and ran DCM. Didn't find it too taxing, although did the marathon in a morph suit as didn't wanna worry about chasing a time if I was near my pb. Ended up having a very enjoyable day, would definitely do it again (i.e. Fancy dress)

Enduro

zico10 wrote: »

Would you have ran a marathon PB though? That was the question in fairness. And if you think you could have, then I'd suggest your current marathon PB doesn't reflect your real potential.

Fair question Zico! But it all comes down to individual abilty, and just how good the PB in question is, in the end.

To flesh out the example I used above:

week 1, race 1: world 24 hour hour championships, Holland. Result: 22nd in 234.444km (2nd best Irish performance at a 24 hour world championships)

2 weeks later, race 2: Wicklow Way race. Result: 1st in 12:25. A new record for the WW which is 40 minutes clear of the 2nd best ever time (my previous PB) and about 80 minutes clear of anyone else's time ever.

2 weeks later again, race 3: Mourne Way Ultra double marathon (off road). Result: 1st in about 7:39. A new course record, just getting in front of my old course record from 2 years earlier.

And to add to that, about 6 weeks later again I won the Irish 24 hour championships in 244km, which is about 10km clear of the nearest distance that anyone else has ever run in Ireland.

Now these are all running events, but I was still putting in multisports training for AR, getting in plenty of cycling and a bit of kayaking. (and competed in the beast of Ballyhoura about 2 weeks after the Irish 24 hour champs).

So could I break PBs after a short little distance like an IM.... I think the above example shows that I could. Could someone else do likewise... well why not if they are well enough trained!

Saying that breaking a marathon PB would show that the marathon PB does not reflect full potential is possibly true (only possibly though... there's a whole other discussion there). But if its all in the same context (in the case of the OP, the context being running marathons whilst training primarily for IM) then that's not really relevent, as it wasn't the question asked.

Dory Dory

Enduro wrote: »

Fair question Zico! But it all comes down to individual abilty, and just how good the PB in question is, in the end.

To flesh out the example I used above:

week 1, race 1: world 24 hour hour championships, Holland. Result: 22nd in 234.444km (2nd best Irish performance at a 24 hour world championships)

2 weeks later, race 2: Wicklow Way race. Result: 1st in 12:25. A new record for the WW which is 40 minutes clear of the 2nd best ever time (my previous PB) and about 80 minutes clear of anyone else's time ever.

2 weeks later again, race 3: Mourne Way Ultra double marathon (off road). Result: 1st in about 7:39. A new course record, just getting in front of my old course record from 2 years earlier.

And to add to that, about 6 weeks later again I won the Irish 24 hour championships in 244km, which is about 10km clear of the nearest distance that anyone else has ever run in Ireland.

Now these are all running events, but I was still putting in multisports training for AR, getting in plenty of cycling and a bit of kayaking. (and competed in the beast of Ballyhoura about 2 weeks after the Irish 24 hour champs).

So could I break PBs after a short little distance like an IM.... I think the above example shows that I could. Could someone else do likewise... well why not if they are well enough trained!

Saying that breaking a marathon PB would show that the marathon PB does not reflect full potential is possibly true (only possibly though... there's a whole other discussion there). But if its all in the same context (in the case of the OP, the context being running marathons whilst training primarily for IM) then that's not really relevent, as it wasn't the question asked.

BAM!!!

peter kern

good post

week 1, race 1: world 24 hour hour championships, Holland. Result: 22nd in 234.444km (2nd best Irish performance at a 24 hour world championships)

at the same time thats clsoe 30 % slower than the world record. Zico would be closer to the world record in Ironmn.

Enduro

peter kern wrote: »

good post

week 1, race 1: world 24 hour hour championships, Holland. Result: 22nd in 234.444km (2nd best Irish performance at a 24 hour world championships)

at the same time thats clsoe 30 % slower than the world record. Zico would be closer to the world record in Ironmn.

You'd need to take into account of the world record standards for both events to do that though. The 24 hour WR is a "Bob Beaman" type whereby no-one else has ever got near it. One outstanding freakishly good athlete set the record(s) way above what even even the best of the rest have managed. All is obvious when you look at the all time best list.

zico10

Enduro wrote: »

You'd need to take into account of the world record standards for both events to do that though. The 24 hour WR is a "Bob Beaman" type whereby no-one else has ever got near it. One outstanding freakishly good athlete set the record(s) way above what even even the best of the rest have managed. All is obvious when you look at the all time best list.

Re. the link you've supplied; The way I'd read that is that good runners just aren't sufficiently motivated to go for the record. I'm sorry, but there is no way in any sport, the best in the world is that much better than the second best. And I'm not trying to belittle your WIcklow Way record, but you brought it into the thread. I'll admit it's impressive, but the fact you are 80 minutes quicker than anybody else who has ever done it, just tells me it wasn't competitive.

Secondly while you might not find the distances in Ironman anyway daunting, trying to race them is. If you were to properly focus on training for an Ironman and raced it hard, I'd find it hard to believe anybody would be in marathon PB shape three weeks later. (It depends on the nature of the PB of course.) I won't be trying, but when I'm finished with my Ironman training next September, I think it would take me 4/5 months of focussed marathon training before I'd attempt running a PB, and even then I wouldn't be encouraging anybody to put their house on it.

MojoMaker

Wow, nobody in modern times on that list at all, I think 1984 was the most recent entry I could see.

Given that distance running is immeasurably faster and more focused now than ever before why do you think the athletic community has turned its back on ultra and/or distance records like this? For example I thought there might at least have been an entry from Scott Jurek in there somewhere.

Enduro

MojoMaker wrote: »

Wow, nobody in modern times on that list at all, I think 1984 was the most recent entry I could see.

Given that distance running is immeasurably faster and more focused now than ever before why do you think the athletic community has turned its back on ultra and/or distance records like this? For example I thought there might at least have been an entry from Scott Jurek in there somewhere.

There is an entry for Scott Jurek in there, you just have to scroll down a bit to get there (about 267km off the top of my head... he smashed the American record at the time, and still says that racing 24hours was the hardest thing he has done). But he is still way off the standard of Yiannis Kouros. (I was also in that race...great to see him show his class on the flat).

That list goes to 2012 (but it amply demonstrates that one phenomenal runner skews the record upwards). Since then there have been one or two runs that would encroach page one. Mike Morton won the world champs and broke the American record again with 277 in 2013. And more significantly Hara Yahsikazu ran 285km last year, which would have been a world recod if Yiannis never existed!

If you exclude the 19th century pedestrian races, I don't think that ultra running has ever been as popular as it is now, certainly from a participation point of view. As the above demonstrates, standards are high. Having participated in quite a few world championships I've personally observed that collective standards are rising continuously.

But again, Yiannis skews the WR in the same way that Bob Beaman skewed the high jump world record for decades.

Enduro

zico10 wrote: »

Re. the link you've supplied; The way I'd read that is that good runners just aren't sufficiently motivated to go for the record. I'm sorry, but there is no way in any sport, the best in the world is that much better than the second best.

Then how do you explain Bob Beamon's 1968 Olympic Long jump then? Or the fact that in since then only one person has broken it? Have all the olympic, world championship, national championship etc etc jumper been insufficiently motivated to go for the record? Seriously? All the best long jumpers in the world now lack motivation to break a 20 year old WR? Sometimes phenomenal athletes turn up. It's rare, but it does happen. Kouros is in that category... try reading into the subject and you'll see what I mean (there's lots of interesting stories).

zico10 wrote: »

And I'm not trying to belittle your WIcklow Way record, but you brought it into the thread. I'll admit it's impressive, but the fact you are 80 minutes quicker than anybody else who has ever done it, just tells me it wasn't competitive.

Feel free to try to break it . It'd give me the motivation to get our there and give it another go. For reference, the next two people behind me are both Irish international ultra trail runners.

zico10 wrote: »

Secondly while you might not find the distances in Ironman anyway daunting, trying to race them is.

Ahh FFS man, would you knock it off. There's nothing special about racing an IM. I've raced for Ireland at multiple different events. I've competed at multiple 24 hour world championships, ultra trail world championships, Adventure racing world championships etc etc. I've competed in many races that are listed in "worlds hardest" lists, and I've even gotton on the podium on one or two of them. The harder the race, and the higher the standard the more I love it. Honestly, you're off your head if you think there is anything in the slightrest bit daunting about racing an IM. get over yourself!

zico10 wrote: »

If you were to properly focus on training for an Ironman and raced it hard, I'd find it hard to believe anybody would be in marathon PB shape three weeks later. (It depends on the nature of the PB of course.) I won't be trying, but when I'm finished with my Ironman training next September, I think it would take me 4/5 months of focussed marathon training before I'd attempt running a PB, and even then I wouldn't be encouraging anybody to put their house on it.

I've no reason to disbelieve that. If you don't think you can do it then you most certainly won't be able to. But don't project that limitation onto everyone else. Everyone is different. Some people naturally have much better recovery and adaptability than others.