Now Ye're Talking - To A Veterinary Nurse

I'm A Veterinary Nurse, AMA

Deleted User wrote: »

I have too many questions! So if you answer some and not all that is fine - I will not call you on it I will start with the more boring question first because since I am so boring it is one I am actually interested in But my questions will vary from the inane to the deeply moralistic So bear with me.

Hello Deleted User. Gosh, thanks for all the questions, I'll do my best!


First is - are the distinctions between "doctor" "surgeon" "nurse" "consultant" and so forth similar between the animal and human medical industry or is there any stark differences of note? What are the mappings between titles in the two areas like?

It's actually very, very similar as far as I'm aware. In some clinics here there are also kennel assistants which would probably be the equivalent of a healthcare assistant in human medicine. There's no doctor equivalent though, all vets are trained in general surgery, so therefore are called Veterinary Surgeons. As in human medicine, it's up to them whether they want to specialise. Orthopaedics is a huge area here. That's as much as I know I'm afraid.


Becoming a "human" doctor or surgeon is considered - I suspect - one of the academic heights on can aspire to. But I have often questioned whether vets should be held in higher esteem than that. Because you have to learn the biology and epidemiology and much more of multiple species where "human" doctors only have to do one. Is there ever a mutual animosity or disrespect because of this - with one group feeling above the other socially - but the other knowing they achieve much more academically and intellectually and know the arrogance of the former is unjustified?


Great question. I'd have to say there is some animosity, and vets hate seeing doctors coming in with animals in my experience, I'm not sure why. I've personally found the opposite with human nurses and veterinary nurses, we're both curious to see what the other can and can't do, what are the differences and similarities between the two professions, etc.


Onto a question I do have a real hope you answer though - I have spent a lot of my life doing first aid courses and reading books and getting training on survival medicine and even war time medical procedures. Basically training myself to know EXACTLY how to react in a medical emergency where someone qualified is not around. But is there something similar on offer for those of us who would like to train on how to give "first aid" to animals rather than humans? Do the blue cross offer something similar to the red cross?

Oh yes, there actually is. There is a Canine First Responder course run by a former IVNA Veterinary Nurse of the Year, she's a lovely lady. If you go to this site you should find lots of information. I was considering doing this one myself.

http://petproblemsanimalfirstaid.weebly.com/

There are a couple more if you search for animal first aid courses in Ireland. The one above is the one I've heard the most about, and it's also accredited by the Veterinary Council of Ireland.


I like to hunt my own meat where possible - rather than buy it from farms where the animals might have been treated unethically. So I would much rather capture my own rabbit - feed it and treat it like a king for a month - and then kill it and eat it - rather than go into Tesco and buy a chicken you have no idea how it was ethically treated. Do you have any opinions or knowledge on the techniques, options or morality on killing rabbits or anything else for people like me who obtain their own meat - that I might not know yet? I do strive HARD to be as ethical and informed as I can when I do it.

That is something I actually know very little about, I do apologise.


Have you worked with wolves at all? I currently own one that I sourced in the US from a breeder - and I have invested a STUPID amount of time and energy and resources into giving him an incredibly happy and stimulating life - which I have to admit he has returned in kind manifold. They are a wonderful animal so Id love to hear any experience you have had with them.


I've not worked with wolves but that would be an incredible experience. It sounds like you're definitely giving your wolf a wonderful life though.


Could you - and I hope no one jumps on your replies and tries to debate you or call you on your reply to this so I understand if you do not answer - talk about the parallels you see between human and animal euthanasia that you see and your feelings on them. On one extreme we will shoot a horse for having a sprained ankle - yet on the other we will refuse humans death under the most horrific suffering - do the medical ethics you obtain in your field inform your position on such debates much? Does the fact that you have more options to put a patient "to sleep" contrast in weird ways with the "human" branch of the medical profession?

This is going to be a tough one to answer. Personally, I don't like the fact that a shotgun is used with horses at all. I much prefer injection, but death is quite slow purely because you have to use such a huge volume of the drug. If the animal is incredible pain and the quickest way to end his/her suffering is shooting it, then it's fine. Obviously a gunshot is not how we would want to conduct human euthanasia, but I do think that human medicine needs to take a leaf out of the veterinary book. Clearly human euthanasia would have to be very, very strictly regulated. This definitely isn't a black and white issue but I do have some experience with a family member which would cause me to be in favour of it in certain cases. I've assisted in euthanasias and the death is so peaceful. The animals just drift off to sleep, no pain involved, and most of the time they're surrounded by family being petted and talked to. It can be heartbreaking but if you know you're doing the right thing by the animal it does make it slightly easier. (That was a very long winded answer, but it's a thought provoking question)


On a fun note though - do you watch "animal wonders" and "Sci show talk show" on you tube? And is Jessi Knudsen Castañeda not just one of your all time heros because of it? The work she does the animals she works with and her ovious love for every EVERY single one of them - restores my faith in humanity every day.

I haven't but it sounds like something I'd be really interested in watching in future though. I'll definitely update my To Watch list!

SillyMangoX

Know of any jobs going for a new graduate? :P

I'm A Veterinary Nurse, AMA

SillyMangoX wrote: »

Know of any jobs going for a new graduate? :P

Welcome to the profession!

I don't tbh, I'm currently job hunting myself and it's a bit of a pain!

If emigrating is an option there seems to be a lot of jobs going in Scotland for some reason.

thegreatgonzo

I'm also looking for a different clinic to work in too. In my head I have the ideal practice that I'd like to work in, I have great fun imagining all the various things I could do and the equipment I could play with. What would be your ideal veterinary workplace?

boomerang

I'm A Veterinary Nurse, AMA wrote: »

I wasn't aware that it's only €100 per year in the UK, that's a massive difference considering they appear to have more responsibilities and earn a lot more.

That was the Irish medical nurses... Remember recently they went on strike outside the hospitals because there was an attempt to increase their annual registration fee from 100 euro to 150? And there's us paying €180!

I'm A Veterinary Nurse, AMA

thegreatgonzo wrote: »

I'm also looking for a different clinic to work in too. In my head I have the ideal practice that I'd like to work in, I have great fun imagining all the various things I could do and the equipment I could play with. What would be your ideal veterinary workplace?

In my head I would love to work in a small(ish) but state of the art clinic with loads of fun machines to play with! Digital x-ray would be a must, they had that in my last practice so I'd love a new version of the system they had. It was brilliant, and so easy to use. Also saves on all the processing mallarky with the older x-ray machines/plates. I'd also love to be trained in more things, and given more responsibilities.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is I wish more practices would start following the UK with stuff like this, they seem to value their VN's more over there.

It might be nice to be head nurse somewhere someday, but I'm not sure if my personality is suited to it. I would love to start doing nurse clinics, maybe obesity clinics because I think it's a very big problem here that the public don't seem to take seriously.

boomerang wrote: »

That was the Irish medical nurses... Remember recently they went on strike outside the hospitals because there was an attempt to increase their annual registration fee from 100 euro to 150? And there's us paying €180!

Oh yes, of course! Sorry, I have no idea where my head was when I answered your question yesterday.

It's astonishing that our annual registration fee is almost double that of a human nurse! I'd be very curious to know why that's the case. I'm wondering is it purely because of numbers, obviously nurses would greatly outnumber vet nurses.

simonhm wrote: »

i hate when conflicts occur with other people because **** goes down

That can be difficult to deal with but I think the key is to remain professional.

Vojera

Is people not paying an issue for vets? I ask because a few of my friends (admittedly they're in America) have said their vets don't do any sort of payment plan, but my vet has no problem if I can't pay them until I get paid. I suppose I have a very good relationship with my vet going back a few years.

Is there a minimum level of first aid that has to be provided even if someone can't pay to ensure an animal doesn't suffer? Or is there no obligation to treat an animal of the owner doesn't have any money?

Seesee

Found this a really interesting AMA thank you. My question is an ethical one in a way too. How do you feel about people spending literally thousands of euros on medical treatment to prolong the life of a pet? I have a dog which I am very fond of but if the dog had a life limiting illness I would be inclined to put him to sleep rather than spend thousands on care to prolong his life. I wouldn't want to see him suffer either. To me there is something just a little absurd and unethical in spending so much money on an animal. I also think the attitude to animals in the town/city is different to how most country people and especially farming families treat domestic animals, a little less sentimental. What is your experience?

I'm A Veterinary Nurse, AMA

Vojera wrote: »

Is people not paying an issue for vets? I ask because a few of my friends (admittedly they're in America) have said their vets don't do any sort of payment plan, but my vet has no problem if I can't pay them until I get paid. I suppose I have a very good relationship with my vet going back a few years.

Is there a minimum level of first aid that has to be provided even if someone can't pay to ensure an animal doesn't suffer? Or is there no obligation to treat an animal of the owner doesn't have any money?

Yes, people not paying can be an issue. There can also be an issue of the same person going to vets around one area and running up a bill in each clinic with no intention of paying it, I've seen this first hand.

Interesting that vets in the US don't do a payment plan. In my experience most around my area would be happy to, but it would be decided on a case by case basis, if that makes sense. Like you say, it depends on the type of relationship between the client and the vet. A client who comes in regularly and you know is doing their very best for their animal would be able to arrange a payment plan of some sort without any issues.

I'm not sure about there being no legal obligation if payment is an issue but all of the vets I have worked with would have a moral obligation to provide first aid for an animal to ensure there is no suffering or to at least minimise the animal's suffering. If it's a case of life saving surgery the clinic will do their best to accommodate people who don't have the funds. I know the Veterinary Hospital at UCD have a special fund for cases like that. In some cases though, euthanasia seems to be an option people take if the surgery is deemed to expensive but that's entirely up to the client.

By the way, if anyone needs any clarification on anything I have answered thus far feel free to ask!

I'm A Veterinary Nurse, AMA

Seesee wrote: »

Found this a really interesting AMA thank you. My question is an ethical one in a way too. How do you feel about people spending literally thousands of euros on medical treatment to prolong the life of a pet? I have a dog which I am very fond of but if the dog had a life limiting illness I would be inclined to put him to sleep rather than spend thousands on care to prolong his life. I wouldn't want to see him suffer either. To me there is something just a little absurd and unethical in spending so much money on an animal. I also think the attitude to animals in the town/city is different to how most country people and especially farming families treat domestic animals, a little less sentimental. What is your experience?

Hi Seesee. Glad you're enjoying the AMA. That's a really interesting question, thank you!

To answer your first question, I think it's great that people can be so caring and passionate that they are willing to spend a huge amount of money on their pets, it can be refreshing to see owners like that. But, for me, I think sometimes people can go too far, especially if the animal is suffering and they're only prolonging the animals life for themselves. I suppose what I'm trying to say, and going the long way about it, is that I couldn't justify spending that much money on treatment if it would lengthen the animals life but wouldn't actually improve the animals quality of life. I wouldn't want to keep an animal in any pain or discomfort. I'd have to say to myself "OK, this will make the animal live longer, but what is the animal's quality of life going to be like during and after treatment?"

In my experience there is a difference in the attitudes of people in towns and cities to those in rural areas. I actually find there is still a terrible attitude towards cats, especially among older farmers. For example, I answered a phone call in my last clinic in which the caller basically said that if I didn't contact the SPCA for him that he would drown the cats (and kittens) that were in his farmyard. They're still thought of a vermin by an awful lot of people. People who live in towns and cities are definitely more sentimental toward their pets. I wouldn't go as far as to say everyone who lives in rural areas are less sentimental and that everyone who lives in a more built up area are more sentimental with their animals, because I have seen people who are the complete opposite, but I've found that's generally the case.

quainy

Just a quick question, my girlfriend is a nurse and she often complains that doctors and other medical practitioners often look down on nurses, I don't know how much truth is in this so I am just taking her word for it.

Do you find that Vets would look down on their nurses and would pass as much of their responsibilities onto you as possible?

Tar.Aldarion

Do you ever have trouble eating animals when you work so intimately with them and care for them? When I grew up as a child I was always around cows being from the middle of nowhere and I could see a cow or pig as no different from our dog. On one hand being inconsolable when my dog died, but eating a different animal an hour later as if it was nothing. The more I get to know animals the more I love them, one of my cats died earlier this year and I was in bits, she was the nicest most caring animal, it was hearthbreaking watching her twin sister grieve for her and avoiding where she died. Before that she had an operation, unrelated, and had been on medication for a long time and had just gotten better when she died of a birth heart defect, randomly one day, so it was a big shock after she had gotten better. Honestly I felt this as much as any death in my life and really am coming around to caring for every animal more and more as I get to know more of them. Was just wondering if people in that profession think about it more, seeing as they get to know animals unique personalities and see them in pain etc, or is tehre still a divide between animals as pets and animals for food.

I'm A Veterinary Nurse, AMA

quainy wrote: »

Just a quick question, my girlfriend is a nurse and she often complains that doctors and other medical practitioners often look down on nurses, I don't know how much truth is in this so I am just taking her word for it.

Do you find that Vets would look down on their nurses and would pass as much of their responsibilities onto you as possible?

Hi quainy

My experience has been positive thus far in that all the vets that I have worked with have been great and half really respected their nurses and valued their opinions. I know nurses who work with older vets and they would say that they're not valued as much by them.

I'm A Veterinary Nurse, AMA

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Do you ever have trouble eating animals when you work so intimately with them and care for them? When I grew up as a child I was always around cows being from the middle of nowhere and I could see a cow or pig as no different from our dog. On one hand being inconsolable when my dog died, but eating a different animal an hour later as if it was nothing. The more I get to know animals the more I love them, one of my cats died earlier this year and I was in bits, she was the nicest most caring animal, it was hearthbreaking watching her twin sister grieve for her and avoiding where she died. Before that she had an operation, unrelated, and had been on medication for a long time and had just gotten better when she died of a birth heart defect, randomly one day, so it was a big shock after she had gotten better. Honestly I felt this as much as any death in my life and really am coming around to caring for every animal more and more as I get to know more of them. Was just wondering if people in that profession think about it more, seeing as they get to know animals unique personalities and see them in pain etc, or is tehre still a divide between animals as pets and animals for food.

Hi Tar.Aldarion. I'm very sorry about your cat, losing a pet is an awful thing to go through. It is like losing a member of your family, and don't let anyone tell you differently. I've been devastated over the loss of all of my pets and people can be very insensitive and start saying things like "Ah it was only a cat" and "You can just get another one", which really irritates me. It's not "just a cat", it's a member of your family. I hope you and your other kitty cat are both doing OK.

Personally, I don't have a problem with it but I suspect that's because I don't actually work with animals that are food animals, I work with pets. It is possible that I would have a different opinion if I worked in a large animal clinic but all of my experience has been with companion animals. In find that there is a difference between pets and food animals, especially here, because beef and dairy farming have been a way of life for so many generations.

ozymandiusm8

I appreciate this thread
I'm waiting on the results of my LC with the hope of going on to study veterinary nursing so this was nice to see! A lot of people I've spoken to regarding the course have all suggested going abroad to the UK to study veterinary medicine/nursing and I'm wondering did you study here or abroad? Would you feel like the opposite to your choice may have been more beneficial?

I'm A Veterinary Nurse, AMA

ozymandiusm8 wrote: »

I appreciate this thread
I'm waiting on the results of my LC with the hope of going on to study veterinary nursing so this was nice to see! A lot of people I've spoken to regarding the course have all suggested going abroad to the UK to study veterinary medicine/nursing and I'm wondering did you study here or abroad? Would you feel like the opposite to your choice may have been more beneficial?

Hello ozymandiusm8. Thanks for your question and I wish you the very best of luck with your results and future studies.

I studied at Athlone I.T. I am happy with my studies but I do feel that the UK are streets ahead of Ireland with regard education and opportunities after graduation.

Dav

I think we'll wrap it up there. A big thank you as always to all of you for the questions and to our Veterinary Nurse for her brilliant and comprehensive answers.