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Sanctity of Life (Abortion Megathread)

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    #482
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    otpmb wrote: »
    But either way I take it, the foetus would not have survived, why postpone the inevitable, especially when it seemed to increase the threat to life of the mother?

    The law dictates otherwise.


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    #483
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    If the medical team at any point felt a termination was the only option available to save her life, then of course it would have been justified.

    That's not what I asked.

    That's twice I've asked a really simple question with a simple yes/no answer that you've ducked and dived from.


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    #484
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,765 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Isn't is funny?

    A thread about Planned Parenthood's harvesting of aborted babys' body parts for profit is sidetracked, distracted and camouflaged by the abortion lobby.

    Or at least they try their best to do so.

    Fail. :D

    Well that particular aspect of the discussion quickly ran out of steam due to lack of evidence contained in the videos that were posted and State investigations that confirmed no wrong-doing by Planned Parenthood.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #485
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    This is bordering on haranguing now.

    A termination of pregnancy in accepted circumstances under Irish law is to target the saving of the mother's life.

    I still don't understand how terminating a pregnancy because of a risk to life, as opposed to for other reasons, doesn't target the unborn directly but instead targets the saving of the mother's life.


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    #486
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,330 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Isn't is funny?

    A thread about Planned Parenthood's harvesting of aborted babys' body parts for profit is sidetracked, distracted and camouflaged by the abortion lobby.

    Or at least they try their best to do so.

    Fail. :D

    Really? Because from where I was reading, all the anti-PP arguments have been thoroughly debunked and now theres just a lot of semi-unrelated discussion about abortions in general while we wait for the next heavily edited video, to get another round of "Oh no they DIDN'T" "Uhm, you're correct, they didn't"

    But by all means: the quote/reply function is there if you want to revisit an older argument to try and counter-refute.


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    #487
    otpmb
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭otpmb


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Peter has his own reasons. I could speculate further. But I'll decline.

    Please speculate.
    Black Menorca wrote: »
    The law dictates otherwise.

    Dictated otherwise, it's been changed.


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    #488
    Astrolabe
    Registered Users Posts: 38 ✭Astrolabe


    I watched the video where the director/president of Planned Parenthood was filmed covertly, agreeing to sell children's body parts to buyers. She mentioned that she wanted to buy a lamborghini with her earnings. Any debate about whether women are being paid or not for their children's organs is moot - what they are doing in the first place, i.e.killing their own children, is wrong on every level. Anyone profiting from it is just adding to the evil.


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    #489
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Jayop wrote: »
    That's not what I asked.

    That's twice I've asked a really simple question with a simple yes/no answer that you've ducked and dived from.

    I don't do ducking and diving. Thats the job of the abortion lobby.

    If a termination is the only option to save a mother life from a direct threat, then it is justifiable.


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    #490
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Overheal wrote: »
    Really? Because from where I was reading, all the anti-PP arguments have been thoroughly debunked and now theres just a lot of semi-unrelated discussion about abortions in general while we wait for the next heavily edited video, to get another round of "Oh no they DIDN'T" "Uhm, you're correct, they didn't"

    But by all means: the quote/reply function is there if you want to revisit an older argument to try and counter-refute.

    The funny part is that with another video going up, BM's only contribution to the thread's original topic has pretty much been "I knew it! I knew they were evil!"


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    #491
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,765 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    In Catholic State they're not allowed to have any regrets except if the foetus didn't survive.

    MOD NOTE

    Less of the goading/baiting as quoted above please.

    Thanks for your attention.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #492
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Delirium wrote: »
    Well that particular aspect of the discussion quickly ran out of steam due to lack of evidence contained in the videos that were posted and State investigations that confirmed no wrong-doing by Planned Parenthood.

    Wow.

    Not even MSNBC are gung-ho in their support of PP after the revelations as this statement.

    Though CNN do go close. Anderson Cooper in particular has been spinning for PP relentlessly over the past few nights.


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    #493
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    lazygal wrote: »
    I still don't understand how terminating a pregnancy because of a risk to life, as opposed to for other reasons, doesn't target the unborn directly but instead targets the saving of the mother's life.

    Well I've explained it from my point of view. Beyond that? Maybe consult with a Jesuit.

    I love the Jesuits.

    Our first Jesuit Pope rocks. :)


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    #494
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Astrolabe wrote: »
    I watched the video where the director/president of Planned Parenthood was filmed covertly, agreeing to sell children's body parts to buyers. She mentioned that she wanted to buy a lamborghini with her earnings. Any debate about whether women are being paid or not for their children's organs is moot - what they are doing in the first place, i.e.killing their own children, is wrong on every level. Anyone profiting from it is just adding to the evil.

    Unless you have watched a different video than everyone else then what you saw was the director negotiating financial recuperation for the costs of handling and transporting foetal specimens. And also a joke made in poor taste about wanting a Lamborghini.


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    #495
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    I don't do ducking and diving. Thats the job of the abortion lobby.

    If a termination is the only option to save a mother life from a direct threat, then it is justifiable.

    I didn't ask that question so that's the third duck/dive.


    I'll try one more time to get a simple answer from you. Given what we now know about this case, should they have performed the abortion before she died.


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    #496
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    otpmb wrote: »
    Please speculate.



    Dictated otherwise, it's been changed.

    I'll politely decline to the former.

    Do expand on the latter.


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    #497
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Well I've explained it from my point of view. Beyond that? Maybe consult with a Jesuit.

    I love the Jesuits.

    Our first Jesuit Pope rocks. :)

    So you can't explain why delivering a foetus doesn't directly target the foetus. Got it.


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    #498
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Astrolabe wrote: »
    I watched the video where the director/president of Planned Parenthood was filmed covertly, agreeing to sell children's body parts to buyers. She mentioned that she wanted to buy a lamborghini with her earnings. Any debate about whether women are being paid or not for their children's organs is moot - what they are doing in the first place, i.e.killing their own children, is wrong on every level. Anyone profiting from it is just adding to the evil.

    Nail on head.


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    #499
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,765 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Wow.

    Not even MSNBC are gung-ho in their support of PP after the revelations as this statement.

    Though CNN do go close. Anderson Cooper in particular has been spinning for PP relentlessly over the past few nights.

    Feel free to provide any evidence if you're so confident then. Unless you're engaging in some spin of your own.....

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #500
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Jayop wrote: »
    I didn't ask that question so that's the third duck/dive.


    I'll try one more time to get a simple answer from you. Given what we now know about this case, should they have performed the abortion before she died.

    If it wasn't going to save her life? No.

    If it was going to save her life? Yes.


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    #501
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,330 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Wow.

    Not even MSNBC are gung-ho in their support of PP after the revelations as this statement.

    Though CNN do go close. Anderson Cooper in particular has been spinning for PP relentlessly over the past few nights.

    In the event that I'm reading this as you contending the media hasn't claimed the investigations found no wrongdoing...

    http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/planned-parenthood-wrongdoing-indiana

    I was sure to find an MSNBC arcticle for gravitas. But yes, I had already mentioned a state investigation cleared planned parenthood of wrongdoing in Indiana; so far that I am aware this is the first investigation that has reached any conclusion to date.


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    #502
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Man this thread is moving fast!

    "The findings of this investigation reflect a failure in the provision of the most basic
    elements of patient care to Savita Halappanavar and also the failure to recognise
    and act upon signs of her clinical deterioration in a timely and appropriate manner.
    The missed opportunities to intervene in her care that have been identified in this
    investigation, if acted upon, may have resulted in a different outcome for Savita
    Halappanavar." 14:11 (my emphasis)

    Can't say definitively that an abortion would have saved her.


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    #503
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    lazygal wrote: »
    So you can't explain why delivering a foetus doesn't directly target the foetus. Got it.

    Its the best you're going to get out of me i'm afraid.


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    #504
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    If it wasn't going to save her life? No.

    If it was going to save her life? Yes.


    You're incapable aren't you.

    Rather than just saying the bleeding obvious that it would have massively increased the chances of saving her life so yes you still come back for the third time with a wishy washy answer.


  • Options
    #505
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Our first Jesuit Pope rocks. :)

    Complete aside here but my partner completely agrees with you. I got her a Pope Francis calendar last Christmas and she loves it, it's hanging in our hall!


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    #506
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Its the best you're going to get out of me i'm afraid.

    The best is that you can't explain why delivering a foetus to save a woman's life isn't directly targeting the unborn. Got it. Again.


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    #507
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Man this thread is moving fast!

    "The findings of this investigation reflect a failure in the provision of the most basic
    elements of patient care to Savita Halappanavar and also the failure to recognise
    and act upon signs of her clinical deterioration in a timely and appropriate manner.
    The missed opportunities to intervene in her care that have been identified in this
    investigation, if acted upon, may have resulted in a different outcome for Savita
    Halappanavar." 14:11 (my emphasis)

    Can't say definitively that an abortion would have saved her.

    I don't think anyone said it would, which is why Menorca's last answer to my simple question is such nonsense.

    The only way he/she thinks it would have been justified is if it definitively would have saved her life.


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    #508
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Delirium wrote: »
    Feel free to provide any evidence if you're so confident then. Unless you're engaging in some spin of your own.....

    Heck, even Rachael Maddow, probably the most virulent abortion advocate on American media said she was uncomfortable with the video evidence.


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    #509
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Jayop wrote: »
    I don't think anyone said it would, which is why Menorca's last answer to my simple question is such nonsense.

    The only way he/she thinks it would have been justified is if it definitively would have saved her life.

    This is why I'm reluctant to be pregnant in Ireland again. The possibility of waiting until a risk moves to a risk to life before I can have an abortion isn't something I'm willing to subject myself to. And there's certain consultants that would leave things to take their course more than others, meaning antenatal care is a lottery, especially in the public system. Only people who've never been through the system would think Ireland is a really safe place to have a pregnancy.


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    #510
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,765 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Heck, even Rachael Maddow, probably the most virulent abortion advocate on American media said she was uncomfortable with the video evidence.

    What evidence? you keep alluding to it but I'm noticing it's not appeared yet.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #511
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Jayop wrote: »
    You're incapable aren't you.

    Rather than just saying the bleeding obvious that it would have massively increased the chances of saving her life so yes you still come back for the third time with a wishy washy answer.

    As I said to someone else, its the best you're going to get on the issue.

    My capability is just fine by the way.

    Just because I don't conform to your way of thinking, doesn't render me incapable.


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