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Sanctity of Life (Abortion Megathread)

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    #512
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    robdonn wrote: »
    Complete aside here but my partner completely agrees with you. I got her a Pope Francis calendar last Christmas and she loves it, it's hanging in our hall!

    Every house should have a Pope Francis calender. :)


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    #513
    otpmb
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭otpmb


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    I'll politely decline to the former.

    Do expand on the latter.

    Why do you decline?

    I'm new to this, I assumed that the Protection to life during pregnancy bill gave clarity in a situation like that, but maybe it hasn't and maybe somebody else here knows better. Is there honestly a chance that I could find myself in a situation like Savita Halippanarvar in this country?


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    #514
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    As I said to someone else, its the best you're going to get on the issue.

    My capability is just fine by the way.

    Just because I don't conform to your way of thinking, doesn't render me incapable.

    I'm not asking you to conform to my way of thinking. You're pro-life and I'm OK with that. You're anti-abortion, I'm OK with that too.

    What renders you incapable is your inability to answer a simple question when presented three times without mumbling some half response.


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    #515
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Heck, even Rachael Maddow, probably the most virulent abortion advocate on American media said she was uncomfortable with the video evidence.

    To be honest I found it quite cold myself but I don't think its reason enough to stop access to abortions. Face it, the video means nothing really, if you were anti abortion before you still will be, if you were in favour of choice the video probably won't change that either. You'll see the pro life attempt to discredit all women who access the services provided by PP for what it is.


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    #516
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    otpmb wrote: »
    Why do you decline?

    I'm new to this, I assumed that the Protection to life during pregnancy bill gave clarity to a situation like this, but maybe it hasn't and maybe somebody else here knows better. Is there honestly a chance that I could find myself in a situation like Savita Halippanarvar in this country?

    There is a big chance you or someone else could be at risk of death because a consultant doesn't think your risk of death is high enough to justify terminating a pregnancy. There's consultants women avoid in maternity hospitals in Dublin because they're anti intervention. I won't consent to be treated by one of them if I'm ever pregnant again.


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    #517
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Jayop wrote: »
    I'm not asking you to conform to my way of thinking. You're pro-life and I'm OK with that. You're anti-abortion, I'm OK with that too.

    What renders you incapable is your inability to answer a simple question when presented three times without mumbling some half response.

    There you go again. Throwing the toys out.

    In discussion, you get these situations of dissent or disagreement.

    Sometimes you are powerless to change it. But what you do have power is how you, personally, react to said situation.


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    #518
    otpmb
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭otpmb


    lazygal wrote: »
    There is a big chance you or someone else could be at risk of death because a consultant doesn't think your risk of death is high enough to justify terminating a pregnancy. There's consultants women avoid in maternity hospitals in Dublin because they're anti intervention. I won't consent to be treated by one of them if I'm ever pregnant again.

    That's terrifying, sorry I'm dragging the thread of topic, this seems to be where everybody is, what's being done about this issue?


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    #519
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    eviltwin wrote: »
    To be honest I found it quite cold myself but I don't think its reason enough to stop access to abortions. Face it, the video means nothing really, if you were anti abortion before you still will be, if you were in favour of choice the video probably won't change that either. You'll see the pro life attempt to discredit all women who access the services provided by PP for what it is.

    Thats another thing.

    all of the videos are of female PP reps, plying their sideline in baby parts.

    Kind of debunks the Feminist notion that if women were in charge of things, everything would be rosy.


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    #520
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Thats another thing.

    all of the videos are of female PP reps, plying their sideline in baby parts.

    Kind of debunks the Feminist notion that if women were in charge of things, everything would be rosy.

    Seeing as how they are working to provide choice to those who want it I think things would be quite rosy.


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    #521
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    otpmb wrote: »
    That's terrifying, sorry I'm dragging the thread of topic, this seems to be where everybody is, what's being done about this issue?

    Nothing. Our maternity services are about average and while a woman's life is the same as a foetus unless she has the means and ability to travel women don't have bodily autonomy in Ireland. Unless the eighth amendment is repealed your life is at risk during pregnancy. Even if you're brain dead you won't be left alone if you're pregnant


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    #522
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Seeing as how they are working to provide choice to those who want it I think things would be quite rosy.

    Depends on one's definition of rosy.


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    #523
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    There you go again. Throwing the toys out.

    In discussion, you get these situations of dissent or disagreement.

    Sometimes you are powerless to change it. But what you do have power is how you, personally, react to said situation.

    No toys thrown out. I just find it funny that someone who spends as much time as you seem to debating this issue can't answer a simple question. The answer is clearly yes and answering it as such wouldn't suddenly weaken your position on abortion, but it may give your opinion more weight as someone who is able to be straight up.


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    #524
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    There you go again. Throwing the toys out.

    In discussion, you get these situations of dissent or disagreement.

    Sometimes you are powerless to change it. But what you do have power is how you, personally, react to said situation.

    The problem isn't disagreement, we all expect disagreement, especially on a topic as volitile as this. The point of contention is that you were asked a question and chose not to answer it. When pressed, you rephrased the question and answered your own version.


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    #525
    otpmb
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭otpmb


    lazygal wrote: »
    Nothing. Our maternity services are about average and while a woman's life is the same as a foetus unless she has the means and ability to travel women don't have bodily autonomy in Ireland. Unless the eighth amendment is repealed your life is at risk during pregnancy. Even if you're brain dead you won't be left alone if you're pregnant

    I thought a woman life was superior to that of a foetus in cases of loss of life from a physical illness (emergency or not) and suicide, but should I take it so, that's it's not threat to life but, actual 100% chance of death if an abortion is not performed. Am I right? or not?


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    #526
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Depends on one's definition of rosy.

    Rosy - A world that provides the option of abortion but never needs it.

    I like my definition. :)


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    #527
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,779 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Thats another thing.

    all of the videos are of female PP reps, plying their sideline in baby parts.

    Kind of debunks the Feminist notion that if women were in charge of things, everything would be rosy.

    'plying their sideline in baby parts'. That's some fine spin.

    PP have been open about their tissue donations. Hardly a sideline if they're legally prohibited from profiting from any donated tissue, something that the videos haven't shown to be happening btw.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #528
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    otpmb wrote: »
    I thought a woman life was superior to that of a foetus in cases of loss of life from a physical illness (emergency or not) and suicide, but should I take it so, that's it's not threat to life but, actual 100% chance of death if an abortion is not performed. Am I right? or not?

    It'll depend on who's treating you. I specifically chose a consultant who was in favour of early intervention before a problem became a crisis. I've had to deal with those who weren't. Luckily I was able to deal with them. Anyway why is my life depending on percentages? What will my husband and kids be told, that I was only at a 5% risk of death so they left me to miscarry without intervening at 18 weeks, and they couldn't intervene because the dying foetus has the same status as me?


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    #529
    otpmb
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭otpmb


    lazygal wrote: »
    It'll depend on who's treating you. I specifically chose a consultant who was in favour of early intervention before a problem became a crisis. I've had to deal with those who weren't. Luckily I was able to deal with them. Anyway why is my life depending on percentages? What will my husband and kids be told, that I was only at a 5% risk of death so they left me to miscarry without intervening at 18 weeks, and they couldn't intervene because the dying foetus has the same status as me?

    Is there no regulation by the Medical Council? Is there no law that respects a woman's opinion, when her life is at risk during her pregnancy? How would the 8th amendment be repealed to deal with situations like this?


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    #530
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    otpmb wrote: »
    Is there no regulation by the Medical Council? Is there no law that respects a woman's opinion, when her life is at risk during her pregnancy? How would the 8th amendment be repealed to deal with situations like this?

    The next change to the 8th will be it's abolition.


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    #531
    otpmb
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭otpmb


    Jayop wrote: »
    The next change to the 8th will be it's abolition.
    When? And with what will it be replaced with?


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    #532
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,929 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Nothing, hopefully. Then it would be for the Oireachtas to decide on abortion legislation without the asphyxiating straitjacket that is the 8th.


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    #533
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    otpmb wrote: »
    When? And with what will it be replaced with?

    As PopePalpatine says, hopefully nothing. Hopefully it's just repealed and then we can legislate sensibly. Although given the complete inability and unwillingness to legislate on the previous referendums and EU directives I wouldn't hold my breath on that either unless you get a real strong left win coalition.


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    #534
    otpmb
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭otpmb


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Nothing, hopefully. Then it would be for the Oireachtas to decide on abortion legislation without the asphyxiating straitjacket that is the 8th.

    Okay, I would consider myself pretty pro-choice, but you couldn't honestly expect people to vote in a referendum about appealing the 8th without some idea as to what it would be replaced with.


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    #535
    Not a NSA agent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 781 ✭✭✭Not a NSA agent


    otpmb wrote: »
    When? And with what will it be replaced with?

    No idea when yet. Legislation would be used. What exactly it would be is unknown. It could be anything from free for all to making it illegal to get information or travel for an abortion. Most likely somewhere in the middle with politicians being able to update it as needed.


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    #536
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    otpmb wrote: »
    Okay, I would consider myself pretty pro-choice, but you couldn't honestly expect people to vote in a referendum about appealing the 8th without some idea as to what it would be replaced with.

    The Government and pro abolition groups can propose legislation that they would like to pass, but the people can't vote on that. They can only vote on the constitution. It's not until after the amendment is repealed that the new legislation can be put in place.

    I think that's right.


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    #537
    otpmb
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭otpmb


    Jayop wrote: »
    The Government and pro abolition groups can propose legislation that they would like to pass, but the people can't vote on that. They can only vote on the constitution. It's not until after the amendment is repealed that the new legislation can be put in place.

    I think that's right.

    Oh okay thank you, that makes sense :). I can assume that if the proposed legislation was different from the actual legislation introduced, there would be some legal ramifications etc.


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    #538
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,501 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    otpmb wrote: »
    Is there no law that respects a woman's opinion, when her life is at risk during her pregnancy?
    No. The woman's opinion has no legal value in this situation, because of the 8th amendment.


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    #539
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Black Menorca wrote: »

    Funny how RTE, the Irish Times, Newstalk and Today FM have been so quiet about this story.

    Planned Parenthood have given the Irish Pro-Life organisations so much ammunition to defend any future attack on the 8th.
    this will set back the abortion lobby decades in this country.

    Earlier in this thread it was pointed out that the National Union of Journalists policy is not to report about abortion.

    Of course the NUJ are hypocrites given Irish Times newspaper providing an outlet to various abortion advocates including their own "journalists"


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    #540
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Why is it the responsibility of the media to inform the people about how medical procedures happen..

    Except that media do inform people about medical procedures, especially medical procedures which lead to detrimental health consequences.

    Abortion being the exception when it comes to "media coverage".


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    #541
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Delirium wrote: »
    MOD NOTE

    Please try to respond in a more meaningful way rather than as above, as they could be perceived as trolling.

    Thanks for your attention.

    New user name? Where did the SW user name disappear to?


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