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Sanctity of Life (Abortion Megathread)

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    #572
    Two Sheds
    Registered Users Posts: 316 ✭✭Two Sheds


    robdonn wrote: »
    And you're presuming that it is, and as Planned Parenthood have not actually been shown to have done anything wrong, we have no reason to make any other assumptions.
    The filthy abortion industry is stacked with immoral and amoral people, many of whom would be unemployable in any other area of medicine and some of whom would sell their own grannies for dogmeat. A person who will butcher a baby can't crawl much lower.


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    #573
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Two Sheds wrote: »
    Do we know what became of the bodies after the babies were allowed die?

    Are you insinuating anything by that?


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    #574
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,329 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Two Sheds wrote: »
    You're assuming it's not general or deliberate practise - the Planned Parenthood scandal should give everybody pause for thought.
    Do we know what became of the bodies after the babies were allowed die?
    From the article:
    Latest Department of Health figures show that abortion is rising, with 193,700 terminations in 2006, and 2,948 carried out over 20 weeks.
    The majority of these - 2,036 - were for major abnormalities.
    The British Association of Perinatal Medicine said new guidelines were being drawn up to cover babies born alive after abortion.
    Neonatologist Professor Neil Marlow, president of the association, said: "Parents may be told that the baby will not be viable but may still want to hold it until it dies, and this is probably what we are seeing in these statistics."

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-512129/66-babies-year-left-die-NHS-abortions-wrong.html#ixzz3i1OIIgzj
    So in fact, hidden well down the article we learn that many if not all of these babies born alive may be fetuses which were not going to survive anyway, but whose parents wanted a few minutes or hours with their child before burying it - and yet you quote this alarmist title from this British newspaper as evidence that abuse of abortion is happening in Britain within a few posts of you claiming that British media are prevented from printing negative views of abortion practices.

    And you don't see a problem with your logic there? :rolleyes:


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    #575
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,765 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Two Sheds wrote: »
    The filthy abortion industry is stacked with immoral and amoral people, many of whom would be unemployable in any other area of medicine and some of whom would sell their own grannies for dogmeat. A person who will butcher a baby can't crawl much lower.

    We get it, you hate people that perform abortions. Not a good enough reason to just accept any specious claims made about doctors/providers though.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #576
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Two Sheds wrote: »
    The filthy abortion industry is stacked with immoral and amoral people, many of whom would be unemployable in any other area of medicine and some of whom would sell their own grannies for dogmeat. A person who will butcher a baby can't crawl much lower.

    Several friends of mine work in Marie Stopes clinics in London assisting in several areas of operations including abortions, but they only do that part time.

    Do you know what their full time jobs are? They're midwives, delivering newborn babies nearly every day. And one of them had an abortion herself when she was 20, did not enjoy the experience one bit, but understands that it is an immensely important service that needs to be available in the circumstances that it is required.


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    #577
    Two Sheds
    Registered Users Posts: 316 ✭✭Two Sheds


    robdonn wrote: »
    Are you insinuating anything by that?
    I'm not insinuating anything.

    I'm saying that since there is a demand for intact dead babies, we should seriously consider the possibility that some doctors may be deliberately allowing babies to be born alive so that they will die intact and fetch a better price.

    The Planned Parenthood videos have raised this possibility.


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    #578
    Two Sheds
    Registered Users Posts: 316 ✭✭Two Sheds


    robdonn wrote: »
    Several friends of mine work in Marie Stopes clinics in London assisting in several areas of operations including abortions, but they only do that part time.

    Do you know what their full time jobs are? They're midwives, delivering newborn babies nearly every day. And one of them had an abortion herself when she was 20, did not enjoy the experience one bit, but understands that it is an immensely important service that needs to be available in the circumstances that it is required.
    Monsters usually look and act like everybody else.


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    #579
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,765 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Two Sheds wrote: »
    Monsters usually look and act like everybody else.

    MOD NOTE

    Please try to discuss the topic without descending to that level of sensationalism/hyperbole.

    Thanks for your attention.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #580
    Two Sheds
    Registered Users Posts: 316 ✭✭Two Sheds


    I considered the word before using it. It's hard to find another term that adequately describes my opinion of people who do such things to children.

    Apologies if it offends.


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    #581
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Two Sheds wrote: »
    I'm not insinuating anything.

    I'm saying that since there is a demand for intact dead babies, we should seriously consider the possibility that some doctors may be deliberately allowing babies to be born alive so that they will die intact and fetch a better price.

    The Planned Parenthood videos have raised this possibility.

    That would definitely be a concern if:
    • There was a profit being made, which there isn't.
    • There was any evidence that these cases were not accidental, which there isn't.
    • The Planned Parenthood videos showed evidence of illegal activities, which they don't.

    As for the "monsters" comment, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your cat walked across your keyboard as that would be far better than the alternative.


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    #582
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Jayop wrote: »
    I don't think anyone said it would,...

    No, you said that an abortion would have saved her.

    "What about the families of woman who died because they weren't allowed an abortion. Do they have regrets?"


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    #583
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    No, you said that an abortion would have saved her.

    "What about the families of woman who died because they weren't allowed an abortion. Do they have regrets?"

    Petty semantics when you have to go back to the question that raised the discussion to try to find a weak point.

    She was an example of someone who likely would because it was said that no one had died because of not getting an abortion.


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    #584
    otpmb
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭otpmb


    hinault wrote: »
    What medical school did she graduate from?

    But, it wouldn't matter if she did graduate from a medical school, her medical care would be decided by the doctors who were treating her and not her.
    Two Sheds wrote: »
    It happens all the time, doesn't it!:rolleyes:

    Scaremongering nonsense!

    Source please.


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    #585
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,329 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    otpmb wrote: »
    But, it wouldn't matter if she did graduate from a medical school, her medical care would be decided by the doctors who were treating her and not her.

    FWIW she was a dentist, so would certainly have had some knowledge of the risks and symptoms of sepsis.

    In any event, given that she showed clear clinical symptoms of sepsis that anyone with any sort of paramedical training should have been able to recognize, her own medical credentials appear more reliable than the specialized obstetric team that posters here claim were unable to identify her septic state.

    It doesn't say much for Irish medical training if that was beyond the skills of the doctors in GUH - and since none of them were severely sanctioned for any sort of incompetence, that seems to imply that that level of professional skill (or lack of it) is considered acceptable among Irish obstetricians generally.


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    #586
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Jayop wrote: »
    Petty semantics when you have to go back to the question that raised the discussion to try to find a weak point.

    She was an example of someone who likely would because it was said that no one had died because of not getting an abortion.

    Not semantics; simple accuracy.
    I asked a Q; you and others answered (incorrectly) and I corrected you.

    Links to the report on her death have been posted. Read it instead of adhering to a misinformed version of what happened.


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    #587
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Not semantics; simple accuracy.
    I asked a Q; you and others answered (incorrectly) and I corrected you.

    Links to the report on her death have been posted. Read it instead of adhering to a misinformed version of what happened.

    That was one example of a high profile case of someone who's life would likely have been saved by having an abortion. It is semantics for you to try to point out that because no-one can possibly say definitively whether it would have saved her but in all likelihood it would have, or at the very least it would have given her a much greater chance of survival.

    Is Dr Boylan adhering to a misinformed version of what happened?
    otpmb wrote: »
    Savita Halappanavar would probably be alive today if she had been given a termination of her pregnancy when she requested it, the former master of the National Maternity Hospital has told her inquest.
    Dr Peter Boylan said that if Ms Halappanavar had been given a termination on the Monday or Tuesday, one or two days after she was admitted last October 21st, she would “on the balance of probabilities”, still be alive.
    “It is highly likely she would not have died” if she had been given a termination earlier, he added.

    Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/highly-likely-halappanavar-would-be-alive-if-termination-given-inquest-told-1.1363125

    If he is then please tell me where he's wrong and what part of the report specifically says he is.

    Both yourself and Black Menorca are great at saying "watch the video" or "read the report" but you seem incapable of actually giving a proper citation to any of your posts but use vagaries to dismiss others.


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    #588
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Jayop wrote: »
    No toys thrown out. I just find it funny that someone who spends as much time as you seem to debating this issue can't answer a simple question. The answer is clearly yes and answering it as such wouldn't suddenly weaken your position on abortion, but it may give your opinion more weight as someone who is able to be straight up.

    IIRC I answered no, in certain circumstances.


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    #589
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    robdonn wrote: »
    The problem isn't disagreement, we all expect disagreement, especially on a topic as volitile as this. The point of contention is that you were asked a question and chose not to answer it. When pressed, you rephrased the question and answered your own version.

    I answered it just fine.


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    #590
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    I answered it just fine.

    You really didn't. You fudged, 3 times.


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    #591
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    otpmb wrote: »
    Is there no regulation by the Medical Council? Is there no law that respects a woman's opinion, when her life is at risk during her pregnancy? How would the 8th amendment be repealed to deal with situations like this?

    Of course there is and its in tune with the X Case legislation. Where there is a direct threat to the life of the mother, a termination of pregnancy is wholly justifiable, if the doctors deem it necessary.


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    #592
    Rebellion
    Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭Rebellion


    absolutely horrifying but is anyone surprised?


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    #593
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Nothing, hopefully. Then it would be for the Oireachtas to decide on abortion legislation without the asphyxiating straitjacket that is the 8th.

    An abortion lobbyists Nirvana.

    Scary stuff.


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    #594
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    hinault wrote: »
    Earlier in this thread it was pointed out that the National Union of Journalists policy is not to report about abortion.

    Of course the NUJ are hypocrites given Irish Times newspaper providing an outlet to various abortion advocates including their own "journalists"

    Did Kitty Holland miss that memo? :D


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    #595
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Of course there is and its in tune with the X Case legislation. Where there is a direct threat to the life of the mother, a termination of pregnancy is wholly justifiable, if the doctors deem it necessary.

    The problem is, and has been explained already in the last few pages with citations, quotes and references, that high profile medical professionals in the country still say that doctors are afraid of making calls that could save woman's lives in-case they lose their jobs and face up to 14 years in prison.


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    #596
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    hinault wrote: »
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/aug/5/new-hampshire-defunds-planned-parenthood-facilitie/

    It's a start.

    Fantastic news. :)


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    #597
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    lazygal wrote: »
    How many times have you used the maternity services in Ireland?

    When I was born, safe and sound in a religious run hospital. No dirty wards like in Rhona's hospital.


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    #598
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Two Sheds wrote: »
    Did you miss the rest of that quote -
    https://www.nuj.org.uk/news/dm2014-the-future-of-journalism/

    The NUJ are so biased they're refusing to report on any negative stories for the abortion industry?

    George Orwell how are you.


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    #599
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Rebellion wrote: »
    absolutely horrifying but is anyone surprised?

    Not surprised at all, but the great thing is that the American Liberal establishment has been rocked to its core, seeing their flagship entity's mask slip sliding away.


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    #600
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Jayop wrote: »
    The problem is, and has been explained already in the last few pages with citations, quotes and references, that high profile medical professionals in the country still say that doctors are afraid of making calls that could save woman's lives in-case they lose their jobs and face up to 14 years in prison.

    If a doctor doesn't do her job, as clearly outlined in the MC Guidelines to make a political statement about the liberalising of the intentional killing of unborn babies, they should be relieved of their duties immediately.


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    #601
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    If a doctor doesn't do her job, as clearly outlined in the MC Guidelines to make a political statement about the liberalising of the intentional killing of unborn babies, they should be relieved of their duties immediately.

    So are you insinuating that I'm somehow suggesting that teh doctors in Galway let this happen to make a political statement to force the liberalisation of abortion?

    If not then I have no idea what that post means.

    If so then you have pulled that from your backside.


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