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Sanctity of Life (Abortion Megathread)

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    #2072
    frag420
    Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭frag420


    cattolico wrote: »
    Correct, respect for live is fundamental to Christianity.

    It's that part that puts the mental in fundamental!!

    Have you not heard of the crusades? What about anti abortionists killing doctors in abortion clinics in the U.S.? Why are you not stopping women traveling for abortions to the UK if respect for life is fundamental to Christianity?

    How about respecting women being fundamental to Christianity? That would be a great start!!


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    #2073
    cattolico
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭cattolico


    Killing a person is wrong, no matter what reasons you invent.


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    #2074
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    cattolico wrote: »
    Killing a person is wrong, no matter what reasons you invent.

    And a foetus is not a person just because you believe them to be.


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    #2075
    cattolico
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭cattolico


    robdonn wrote: »
    And a foetus is not a person just because you believe them to be.

    It is a person because of empirical facts. Its you that removes humanity from something that is the most human.


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    #2076
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,779 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    cattolico wrote: »
    It is a person because of empirical facts. Its you that removes humanity from something that is the most human.

    What empirical facts define a foetus as a person?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #2077
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    cattolico wrote: »
    It is a person because of empirical facts. Its you that removes humanity from something that is the most human.

    The most human? It is an unformed human.


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    #2078
    cattolico
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭cattolico


    robdonn wrote: »
    The most human? It is an unformed human.

    Pro-abortion will always de-humanise the unborn child to justify killing it.

    Its how other movements in history justified removing human rights for people.


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    #2079
    Kev W
    Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    cattolico wrote: »
    Pro-abortion will always de-humanise the unborn child to justify killing it.

    Its how other movements in history justified removing human rights for people.

    What empirical facts define a fetus as a person?


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    #2080
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    cattolico wrote: »
    Pro-abortion will always de-humanise the unborn child to justify killing it.

    Its how other movements in history justified removing human rights for people.

    What empirical facts define a foetus as a person?


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    #2081
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    cattolico wrote: »
    Pro-abortion will always de-humanise the unborn child to justify killing it.

    Its how other movements in history justified removing human rights for people.

    Article One of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights begins: "All human beings are born free and equal..."

    Not "All human beings are free and equal from the moment of conception."


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    #2082
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Sorry guys, can we get back to all those christians that thought they were christians but apparently aren't christians because they support abortion in certain circumstances? Has anyone told them they aren't christians?

    MrP


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    #2083
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Sorry guys, can we get back to all those christians that thought they were christians but apparently aren't christians because they support abortion in certain circumstances? Has anyone told them they aren't christians?

    MrP

    I was going to follow up on that more, but cattolico was asked a question and I didn't want to give him something to use to avoid answering.


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    #2084
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,799 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    cattolico wrote: »
    It is a person because of empirical facts.


    What empirical facts define a fetus as a person?


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    #2085
    frag420
    Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭frag420


    Empirical - based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.

    I think that last part really suits his argument, like who needs logic when making a point.

    But going on the first part.........experience? Have you ever given birth to anything Cattalico? What is your experience with childbirth apart from your own birth? Having said that some of the things you have said are so birdbrained I am starting to think you were hatched but I am open to correction?:P

    Oh and please don't let that last cheeky dig (it was a joke) get in the way of answering any of the other questions posed to you as that seems to be your modus operandi when it comes to answering questions here!


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    #2086
    Nick Park
    Registered Users Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    Article One of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights begins: "All human beings are born free and equal..."

    Not "All human beings are free and equal from the moment of conception."

    Yes, all human beings are born free and equal. It does not logically follow that such equality and freedom can not apply prior to birth.

    Both the UN Commissioner for Human Rights and the European Parliament have acknowledged that unborn children have human rights by recognising sex-selective abortion as a human rights issue that is part of discrimination and violence against women and girls.

    Also, according to the website of the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, the Convention on the Rights of the Child, as adopted by the UN General Assembly, states "the child, by reason of his physical and mental immaturity, needs special safeguards and care, including appropriate legal protection, before as well as after birth".


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    #2087
    cattolico
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭cattolico


    Nick Park wrote: »
    Yes, all human beings are born free and equal. It does not logically follow that such equality and freedom can not apply prior to birth.

    Both the UN Commissioner for Human Rights and the European Parliament have acknowledged that unborn children have human rights by recognising sex-selective abortion as a human rights issue that is part of discrimination and violence against women and girls.

    Also, according to the website of the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, the Convention on the Rights of the Child, as adopted by the UN General Assembly, states "the child, by reason of his physical and mental immaturity, needs special safeguards and care, including appropriate legal protection, before as well as after birth".

    Well put. Also the Irish Constitution protects the rights of the unborn.


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    #2088
    cattolico
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭cattolico


    Sorry. boards does not allow me post the link..

    Baby born without a brain amazes doctors by celebrating his second birthday - and says 'mummy' for the first time

    2nd child this month in the news that was 'incompatible with life'..


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    #2089
    frag420
    Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭frag420


    Welcome back Cattolico, care to answer the questions asked of you over the last 24 hrs or do you just come back in here to pat your fellow anti choice folks on the back when they post a link?

    At least have the courtesy to answer the questions asked of you!!


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    #2090
    Kev W
    Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    cattolico wrote: »
    Sorry. boards does not allow me post the link..

    Baby born without a brain amazes doctors by celebrating his second birthday - and says 'mummy' for the first time

    2nd child this month in the news that was 'incompatible with life'..

    What has this to do with abortion rights?

    The woman in question didn't know she was pregnant until she gave birth, abortion was never under consideration.


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    #2091
    cattolico
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭cattolico


    Kev W wrote: »
    What has this to do with abortion rights?

    Because incompatible with life is one of the reasons being used to change the 8th amendment.


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    #2092
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,779 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    cattolico wrote: »
    Because incompatible with life is one of the reasons being used to change the 8th amendment.

    From wikipedia
    Holoprosencephaly (HPE, once known as arhinencephaly) is a cephalic disorder in which the prosencephalon (the forebrain of the embryo) fails to develop into two hemispheres. Normally, the forebrain is formed and the face begins to develop in the fifth and sixth weeks of human pregnancy. The condition also occurs in other species.


    The condition can be mild or severe. According to the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS), "in most cases of holoprosencephaly, the malformations are so severe that babies die before birth."[1]


    When the embryo's forebrain does not divide to form bilateral cerebral hemispheres (the left and right halves of the brain), it causes defects in the development of the face and in brain structure and function.
    In less severe cases, babies are born with normal or near-normal brain development and facial deformities that may affect the eyes, nose, and upper lip.


    So what's your point about the story?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #2093
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,799 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    cattolico wrote: »
    Well put. Also the Irish Constitution protects the rights of the unborn.
    cattolico wrote: »
    Sorry. boards does not allow me post the link..
    Baby born without a brain amazes doctors by celebrating his second birthday - and says 'mummy' for the first time
    2nd child this month in the news that was 'incompatible with life'..
    cattolico wrote: »
    Because incompatible with life is one of the reasons being used to change the 8th amendment.
    cattolico wrote: »
    It is a person because of empirical facts. Its you that removes humanity from something that is the most human.

    What empirical facts define a fetus as a person?


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    #2094
    cattolico
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭cattolico


    Overheal wrote: »
    What empirical facts define a fetus as a person?

    Foetus an unborn child especially after attaining the basic structural plan of a human being.


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    #2095
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    cattolico wrote: »
    Foetus an unborn child especially after attaining the basic structural plan of a human being.

    Does the morning after pill kill a human being?


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    #2096
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    cattolico wrote: »
    Foetus an unborn child especially after attaining the basic structural plan of a human being.

    Especially? Why is it less of a person before that?


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    #2097
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    cattolico wrote: »
    Sorry. boards does not allow me post the link..

    Baby born without a brain amazes doctors by celebrating his second birthday - and says 'mummy' for the first time

    2nd child this month in the news that was 'incompatible with life'..

    He must have some form of a brain. A person without a brain wouldnt speak, never mind live.

    Although it would explain a lot about people on the internet.

    Then we have the people who become brain dead after an accident, I guess turning off their machines is wrong too.


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    #2098
    cattolico
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭cattolico


    The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »
    He must have some form of a brain. A person without a brain wouldnt speak, never mind live.

    Although it would explain a lot about people on the internet.

    Then we have the people who become brain dead after an accident, I guess turning off their machines is wrong too.

    Personally I think we should as much as possible let nature takes its course and respect the dignity of the person.


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    #2099
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    cattolico wrote: »
    Personally I think we should as much as possible let nature takes its course and respect the dignity of the person.

    If you have cancer will you let nature take its course?


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    #2100
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    cattolico wrote: »
    Personally I think we should as much as possible let nature takes its course and respect the dignity of the person.

    Any medical intervention to keep the child you mentioned alive was wrong then?

    Or do we only let nature take its course when it suits you?


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    #2101
    cattolico
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭cattolico


    lazygal wrote: »
    If you have cancer will you let nature take its course?

    If you have the means to save a person then you should use them. Its the exact same if a pregnant mother is dying because the pregnancy is killing her, you terminate to avoid death. There was no intention to kill the child, but you also can't allow the mother die.


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