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Sanctity of Life (Abortion Megathread)

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    #2342
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    People from western countries, including Ireland, go abroad on "holidays" to do all sorts of things to Children they cannot legally do in their own country. It's nothing new.


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    #2343
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,500 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    People from western countries, including Ireland, go abroad on "holidays" to do all sorts of things to Children they cannot legally do in their own country. It's nothing new.

    And they have been tried and indeed convicted for that, on their return. Do you think that is the right thing to do or not?

    http://m.wtae.com/news/jury-picks-begin-in-pennsylvania-priests-sex-tourism-case/35154872


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    #2344
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    volchitsa wrote: »
    And they have been tried and indeed imprisoned for that, on their return. Do you think that is the right thing to do or not?

    They have, when has that happened in Ireland ?


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    #2345
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,500 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    They have, when ?

    You said western countries, now you're moving the goalposts! There are lots of cases, I gave a link to the most recent one I found, about a priest travelling to Honduras to abuse boys.

    Anyway the question is whether they should be allowed to travel to hurt children, not whether they do. Are you arguing for allowing these abusers to act with impunity?


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    #2346
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    I asked about Ireland . . . when ?


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    #2347
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,500 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    I asked about Ireland . . . when ?

    Like I said, moving the goalposts! You actually said "western countries, including Ireland". I'm not going looking for examples in Ireland, because that wasn't the question you asked and because we've proven that western countries don't have to put up with this sort of behaviour from their citizens if they don't want to.

    Do you think Ireland should allow its citizens to travel abroad to hurt children, when other countries choose to sanction their citizens for the same thing?

    Simple question really. It's a bit worrying that you seem unable to reply.


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    #2348
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    Any examples in Ireland then ?


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    #2349
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,500 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    Any examples in Ireland then ?

    Since that wasn't your original assertion, I'm going to take it that you support western citizens traveling abroad to harm children, and end the conversation with you right there.


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    #2350
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    No examples in Ireland then ?


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    #2351
    frag420
    Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭frag420


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    No examples in Ireland then ?

    Just answer the question.....how difficult can it be.....unless you're wrong?


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    #2352
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    frag420 wrote: »
    Just answer the question.....how difficult can it be.....unless you're wrong?

    Wrong about what ?


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    #2353
    frag420
    Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭frag420


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    Wrong about what ?

    Can you not just answer the question....


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    #2354
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    I don't understand what you are talking about, why is this discussion now about me instead of the subject ?

    Has anyone any examples of Irish people being prosecuted in Ireland, for things they have done to children abroad in another jurisdiction ?


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    #2355
    frag420
    Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭frag420


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    I don't understand what you are talking about, why is this discussion now about me instead of the subject ? Wrong about what ?

    Ok forget it, as you were!


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    #2356
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,500 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    I don't understand what you are talking about, why is this discussion now about me instead of the subject ?
    Because you appear to be defending the rights of rich westerners to travel abroad to abuse poor children. You may not find that shocking, but it really is.
    Has anyone any examples of Irish people being prosecuted in Ireland, for things they have done to children abroad in another jurisdiction ?

    If there aren't any, seeing as you said it happened and was nothing new, does that make it acceptable to you?

    If there are some, do you think it's an infringement on those poor men's human rights to prosecute them?


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    #2357
    Nick Park
    Registered Users Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    Overheal wrote: »
    So you've never familiarized yourself with international trade agreements?

    Trade?

    Ah, sorry, I was thinking more of abortion in general rather than Planned Parenthood's trade in the resultant body parts.


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    #2358
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Because you appear to be defending the rights of rich westerners to travel abroad to abuse poor children. You may not find that shocking, but it really is.

    Either point out exactly where I have said that, or apolgise and get back to the actual subject, instead of making up accusations about other posters.

    volchitsa wrote: »
    If there aren't any, seeing as you said it happened and was nothing new, does that make it acceptable to you?

    If there are some, do you think it's an infringement on those poor men's human rights to prosecute them?

    I'm asking are there any examples, does anyone here have any, and is interested in the actual subject, rather than making up personal accusations about other posters ?


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    #2359
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    volchitsa wrote: »
    If there are some, do you think it's an infringement on those poor men's human rights to prosecute them?

    Or women's...

    Oh, and for those interested, Sexual Offences (Jurisdiction) Act, 1996.

    Can't find any records of people being prosecuted under it, but it may be that it just never made it into the media or I just simply can't find it. Most mentions of it are about the Mission to Prey program on RTE.


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    #2360
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,500 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    Either point out exactly where I have said that, or apolgise and get back to the actual subject, instead of making up accusations about other posters.
    I didn't say you said it, I just pointed out that you are unable to say that you would condemn it, and since your argument appears to be based on such abuse being commonplace, as you said yourself, your implied support or at least acceptance of it is the only possible conclusion of your refusal to condemn it.

    I'm asking are there any examples, does anyone here have any, and is interested in the actual subject, rather than making up personal accusations about other posters ?
    That wasn't your original point, you said "western countries". Why are you so desperately trying to change the question?


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    #2361
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    volchitsa wrote: »
    I didn't say you said it, I just pointed out that you are unable to say that you would condemn it, and since your argument appears to be based on such abuse being commonplace, as you said yourself, your implied support or at least acceptance of it is the only possible conclusion of your refusal to condemn it.

    Where did I imply it, point out exactly where I did, or apologise and get back to the subject, rather than making constant accusations about posters instead of discussing the topic
    volchitsa wrote: »
    That wasn't your original point, you said "western countries". Why are you so desperately trying to change the question?

    I said including Ireland, and I'm interested in Ireland. If you're not, then I suggest you try making it about the subject, instead of other posters.


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    #2362
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Hate to jump in here people, but this is getting a bit useless.

    La Fenetre - You said that (and I'm paraphrasing, obviously) that people from western nations, including Ireland, engage in sex tourism. Whether your intention was to be specific about cases in Ireland, the language you used was not.

    ----

    The point is that, whether someone has ever been charged in Ireland with the law or not, the law does exist and people can be prosecuted in Ireland for actions performed abroad.

    Where this particular example falls down though is that, under subsection 1 of section 2 of the Act, the offence must be against the law in the other country as well. So the victim would have to be under the age of 17 AND under the age of consent in the country the offence occurred in.


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    #2363
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    robdonn wrote: »

    The point is that, whether someone has ever been charged in Ireland with the law or not, the law does exist and people can be prosecuted in Ireland for actions performed abroad.

    Where this particular example falls down though is that, under subsection 1 of section 2 of the Act, the offence must be against the law in the other country as well. So the victim would have to be under the age of 17 AND under the age of consent in the country the offence occurred in.

    I'm not aware of anyone ever being convicted in Ireland for committing an offense against Irish law, in another jurisdiction, where that act is not actually an offense in the foreign jurisdiction. That is why I asked.

    Is anyone aware of any examples ?


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    #2364
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,500 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    robdonn wrote: »
    Hate to jump in here people, but this is getting a bit useless.

    La Fenetre - You said that (and I'm paraphrasing, obviously) that people from western nations, including Ireland, engage in sex tourism. Whether your intention was to be specific about cases in Ireland, the language you used was not.

    ----

    The point is that, whether someone has ever been charged in Ireland with the law or not, the law does exist and people can be prosecuted in Ireland for actions performed abroad.

    Where this particular example falls down though is that, under subsection 1 of section 2 of the Act, the offence must be against the law in the other country as well. So the victim would have to be under the age of 17 AND under the age of consent in the country the offence occurred in.

    Yes I agree. However that isn't the only point in this argument, because the question was originally whether Ireland could or should punish such crimes, even when they are not illegal in the country where they occur.

    And the answer is that Ireland can, because we have such a law for assisted suicide abroad. And because other western countries have prosecuted their citizens for child sex abuse committed abroad, regardless of whether or not it was legal in that country.

    So La Fenetre's argument that these things just can't be done is basically rubbish. It can be done, so insisting that it can't or shouldn't begins to look like an attempt at condoning it. It can, and it should be done.


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    #2365
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    volchitsa wrote: »

    So La Fenetre's argument that these things just can't be done is basically rubbish.

    Where exactly did I make that argument ?
    Again, please point out exactly where I said that.


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    #2366
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,500 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    Where exactly did I make that argument ?
    Again, please point out exactly where I said that.

    What did you mean by this then
    La Fenetre wrote: »
    People from western countries, including Ireland, go abroad on "holidays" to do all sorts of things to Children they cannot legally do in their own country. It's nothing new.


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    #2367
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    volchitsa wrote: »
    What did you mean by this then

    Exactly what it says. Now either point out where I said the things you claimed, or apologise, and get back to the subject instead of attacking posters.


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    #2368
    robdonn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    I'm not aware of anyone ever being convicted in Ireland for committing an offense against Irish law, in another jurisdiction, where that act is not actually an offense in the foreign jurisdiction. That is why I asked.

    Is anyone aware of any examples ?

    I don't know of any actual convictions, but these laws do exist.

    For example, the Passport Act 2008 (Section 20 - Subsection 1[f]) makes it illegal to desecrate an Irish passport, no matter where in the world it happens.

    There is a thread on Boards about this topic here.
    234 wrote: »
    Look at extra-territoriality in criminal law. Some offences are crimes in Ireland no matter where they are committed. Two examples off the top of my head are piracy (the classic example) and unauthorised detonation of nuclear weapon.


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    #2369
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,794 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    I'm asking are there any examples, does anyone here have any, and is interested in the actual subject, rather than making up personal accusations about other posters ?

    If you're interested in the actual subject, and are trying to establish that an Irish Sex Tourist might not be convicted in Ireland, I suggest you do the research on that to prove your case. The Legal Discussion forum could probably help you out with that in a jiffy.


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    #2370
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    Overheal wrote: »
    If you're interested in the actual subject, and are trying to establish that an Irish Sex Tourist might not be convicted in Ireland, I suggest you do the research on that to prove your case. The Legal Discussion forum could probably help you out with that in a jiffy.

    I didn't think the question was that complex.
    I'm interested if anyone committing an offense abroad has ever been convicted in Ireland for committing an offense against Irish law, in another jurisdiction, where that act is not actually an offense in the foreign jurisdiction ? It doesn't have to be having sex with children abroad or "sex tourism" as you call it. It can be anything that infringes on another human life, including the termination of that life.

    Can it be safely assumed that if someone does something abroad that is legal in a foreign country, that it should be morally acceptable and legal here ? I'm not sure that follows to be true.


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    #2371
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Kev W wrote: »
    You seem to be under the impression that something doesn't "count" as illegal until someone is convicted of it. That's simply not how law works and it's frankly shocking to encounter an adult who thinks it is.
    Don't get too shocked... the difference between what you think seems to be and what actually is is fairly substantial.
    My point was that if no one is ever convicted of committing the crime (or, as in the case of abetting suicide, only one prosecution is ever even brought in over twenty years of the legislation existing) , what point is there in it being a crime? If there's no reasonable chance of legislation being practicable, there is no point in having it.


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