Sanctity of Life (Abortion Megathread)

Delirium

La Fenetre wrote: »

How did you come up with only respecting a human life that has 90% viability ? What happens when you get sick and your life drops to 89% viability ?

Should we bump you off to save some taxpayers money ?

How did you decide that a human life should only be respected at 26.0 weeks but not 25 weeks ?

This child is shown at 25 weeks, and was given on a 30% chance of viability and lives well today. Ok to abort her ?

It's a pity you don't absorb what I post before suggesting I'm okay with things I already said I'm uncomfortable with.

I chose 26 weeks as the final stage where I would have problems with an abortion due to it being >90% viability. I also stated that the weeks before would also be problematic for me as it closer to viable than conception. Did I say I was okay/comfortable with 25 week abortions? No.

On what grounds ? Again how did you decide a human life should only be respected at 13 weeks and not 12 weeks ?

Actually, I didn't say that. I said that the majority of abortions are at 13 weeks or before. That means it's double the length of time before the foetus is at a stage that I have difficulty with the idea of performing an abortion.

So you mistakenly presumed I see a difference between 12 and 13 week abortions, I don't.

But its ok to terminate another human life ?

Actually, I said in principle I support the choice of any woman to have an abortion, which would include my mother.

So why do you advocate for someone's abortion instead of their adoption ?

Because they have an unwanted pregnancy. Adoption doesn't stop a woman carrying on with a pregnancy.

Would you also advocate for their abortion ?

No, as that would be stupid. You can't "abort" any 20 year old, regardless of mental or physical status.

But taking another human life is better option ?

Didn't say that. A person can't exist without a brain, so performing an abortion at that stage is no different than disconnecting a brain-dead patient from a life-support machine.

No, define "personhood" for us, when it begins, and how you came up with when it does.

I don't know when it begins. I can only say that it can't exist without a brain since that is how we experience reality.

The Randy Riverbeast

La Fenetre wrote: »

Exactly what illness or injury is abortion the only cure for ?

Where did I say that abortion was the only cure for an illness or injury? I never said the word cure at all.

La Fenetre wrote: »

and why is it ok to take someone else's, life to cure someone else ?

I don't know. Why don't you tell me seeing as you are the person who brought up if it was moral or not?

J C

eviltwin wrote: »

Dial down the crazy there JC, I am not advocating eugenics or supporting the idea of pushing abortion or adoption on anyone but good try

Dial down the personal unfounded insult please.
You said 'There are a lot of people out there who shouldn't have kids, who are not fit to take care of an animal let alone a child.' ... I'll bet you weren't thinking about the so called 'upper classes' in society when you were saying this ... the logic of your position is that abortion should be preferentially made available to such people ... because you are justifying abortion as a solution for them.

J C

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

But pregnancy can lead to illness or injury. Abortion would prevent these.

For a group who claims to consider the woman and child equal there is a lot of glossing over the health of the mother.

Abortion too can cause injury, illness and death to the women involved ... and it is nearly always fatal for the child involved.
There is a lot of glossing over the physical and mental hurt caused to women by abortion.

aaakev

J C wrote: »

I have nothing but absolute compassion for any woman who has had an abortion.
However, a decision to kill is always other people's business ... and the reason why abortion isn't an easy decision is precisely because it kills much more than merely a 'cluster of cells' as aborion advocates sometimes term it.

you certainly dont sound like you have compassion and please stop refering to it as killing because no one is being killed

I have no wish to make anybody feel any worse than they are already feeling ... far from it, I want to assure any woman who has had an abortion, that Jesus loves her and will forgive her, if she asks Him to do so.
I also have to ask myself why women who have abortions feel terrible about is, as you say ... and surely minimising the number of women who have had abortions will also minimise the number of women feeling terrible about having done so ... when they could have the life-affirming experience of bringing their child to term.

jesus? What has jesus got to do with anything? Its an emotional thing being pregnant and just because they feel bad does not mean it was the wrong decision

I have no wish to make anybody feel worse than they already do ... but I do have to point out that a much easier decision would be to bring the baby to term ... and this will also not affect them afterwards, like abortion does, with many women, as you say.

well now no one can say that for a fact not you or anyone.

So you want something that hurts many women and kills their children ... I don't see any logic or compassion in such a position.

what i want is that everyone can have the option to make their own choices regarding their own bodies and that your opinion not affect that decision. Like i said, if you dont like it dont do it

Delirium

J C wrote: »

Abortion too can cause injury, illness and death to the women involved ... and it is nearly always fatal for the child involved.
There is a lot of glossing over the physical and mental hurt caused to women by abortion.

More than 95 percent of women surveyed in a new U.S. study said they didn't regret having an abortion and felt that the procedure was the right decision for them.


Researchers at the University of California San Francisco School of Medicine followed more than 600 women who underwent the procedure from 30 medical facilities over a three year period and regularly assessed how they felt about they choice they made.


The women, aged 25 on average and from different racial and social backgrounds, were asked a series of questions including what had prompted them to terminate the pregnancy, what emotions the decision provoked and if they still thought it was the right thing to do.

Source


All choices carry the potential for regret, does that mean we should remove the possibilty of making choices from people?


And regarding medical safety of having abortions...

Researchers found that women were about 14 times more likely to die during or after giving birth to a live baby than to die from complications of an abortion.


Experts say the findings, though not unexpected, contradict some state laws that suggest abortions are high-risk procedures.


The message is that getting an abortion and giving birth are both safe, said Dr. Anne Davis, who studies obstetrics and gynecology at the Columbia University Medical Center in New York, and wasn't involved in the new study.


"We wouldn't tell people, 'Don't have a baby because it's safer to have an abortion' -- that's ridiculous," she told Reuters Health. "We're trying to help women who are having all reproductive experiences know what to expect."

Source

The Randy Riverbeast

J C wrote: »

Abortion too can cause injury, illness and death to the women involved ... and it is nearly always fatal for the child involved.
There is a lot of glossing over the physical and mental hurt caused to women by abortion.

A study in the US showed that 95%+ of women had no regrets and negative feelings towards it were more likely to be caused by other factors such as stigma around it.

But on the other hand you have a video about 1 person, which to believe :rolleyes:

J C

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Perhaps she would feel more violated by spending nine months being forced to grow a foetus implanted in her body by her assailant, than she would by having an abortion. Hence why she should have a choice.

Perhaps ... perhaps not ...

This was how abortion deeply affected two women :-

lazybones32

@therandyriverbeast: Can you reference this 'study' or even tell us what magazine/webpage you got this stat from?

J C

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

A study in the US showed that 95%+ of women had no regrets and negative feelings towards it were more likely to be caused by other factors such as stigma around it.

But on the other hand you have a video about 1 person, which to believe :rolleyes:

What is the study you refer to?

Its more like 95% have regrets over abortion, like this young woman who calls her abortion the worst mistake she ever made in her life:-

eviltwin

J C wrote: »

Dial down the personal unfounded insult please.
You said 'There are a lot of people out there who shouldn't have kids, who are not fit to take care of an animal let alone a child.' ... I'll bet you weren't thinking about the so called 'upper classes' in society when you were saying this ... the logic of your position is that abortion should be preferentially made available to such people ... because you are justifying abortion as a solution for them.

I actually wasn't thinking along class lines at all JC. I was thinking more of people with profound psychological issues where they can't cope with the responsibility of pregnancy or parenting. For the record I'm working class myself, live on a council estate, I was a teen parent so I know class has nothing to do with how capable one is at raising a child. I also don't advocate for forcing or pressuring certain people to have abortions or believe in putting it forward as the logical choice, my point is that most people are well able to decide for themselves what is best for them.

Delirium

J C wrote: »

What is the study you refer to?

Its more like 95% have regrets over abortion, like this young woman:-

As posted just a few posts ago

Now, can you provide any alternate studies that support your claim?

robdonn

Delirium wrote: »

As posted just a few posts ago

And the actual study is here.

The Randy Riverbeast

lazybones32 wrote: »

@therandyriverbeast: Can you reference this 'study' or even tell us what magazine/webpage you got this stat from?

Delirium linked to the ones I was thinking of. I don't do "studies" and try to avoid magazines or websites that can't link to published peer reviewed journals.

Delirium wrote: »

Source


All choices carry the potential for regret, does that mean we should remove the possibilty of making choices from people?


And regarding medical safety of having abortions...



Source

The Randy Riverbeast

J C wrote: »

What is the study you refer to?

Its more like 95% have regrets over abortion, like this young woman who calls her abortion the worst mistake she ever made in her life:-

Might as well stop wasting your time with the videos. You are really just showing you are driven by your ideology rather than basing your view on facts. Try looking for something a bit more substantial.

Kiwi in IE

Look I found a video on YouTube that says many doctors regret their career choice. Maybe we should make studying medicine illegal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34fVNOYV_vg

eviltwin

I don't regret my abortion. It was the right thing to do then and eight years later I know without doubt it was the right choice. And I don't feel an iota of guilt either but I don't think people with an obvious agenda like to heat that do they :rolleyes:

Kiwi in IE

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't regret my abortion. It was the right thing to do then and eight years later I know without doubt it was the right choice. And I don't feel an iota of guilt either but I don't think people with an obvious agenda like to heat that do they :rolleyes:

Nor do my close friend or close family member who had abortions back home regret them. But random people who have posted on YouTube with a 'pro life' agenda apparently do, and that holds more weight it seems.

J C

Delirium wrote: »

As posted just a few posts ago

Now, can you provide any alternate studies that support your claim?

As against your study that says nearly no woman regretted their abortion ... here are references to 9 studies that clearly demonstrate that the do suffer seriously in many cases:-
Quote:-
Studies within the first few weeks after the abortion have found that between 40 and 60 percent of women questioned report negative reactions. Within 8 weeks after their abortions, 55% expressed guilt, 44% complained of nervous disorders, 36% had experienced sleep disturbances, 31% had regrets about their decision, and 11% had been prescribed psychotropic medicine by their family doctor.

http://www.colorado.edu/studentgroups/studentsforlife/cost.html

Interestingly, these studies have found that "The best available data indicates that on average there is a five to ten year period of denial during which a woman who was traumatized by her abortion will repress her feelings.23,24 During this time, the woman may go to great lengths to avoid people, situations, or events which she associates with her abortion and she may even become vocally defensive of abortion in order to convince others, and herself, that she made the right choice and is satisfied with the outcome. In reality, these women who are subsequently identified as having been severely traumatized, have failed to reach a true state of "closure" with regard to their experiences."
This may explain the 95% figure of 'no regret' over the first 3 years in the other study ... where the women involved 'put on a brave face' whilst in denial of what had happened.

eviltwin

J C wrote: »

Interestingly, these studies have found that "The best available data indicates that on average there is a five to ten year period of denial during which a woman who was traumatized by her abortion will repress her feelings.23,24 During this time, the woman may go to great lengths to avoid people, situations, or events which she associates with her abortion and she may even become vocally defensive of abortion in order to convince others, and herself, that she made the right choice and is satisfied with the outcome. In reality, these women who are subsequently identified as having been severely traumatized, have failed to reach a true state of "closure" with regard to their experiences."
This may explain the 95% figure of 'no regret' over the first 3 years in the other study ... where the women involved 'put on a brave face' whilst in denial of what had happened.

So even when we say we have no regrets we do.......right

J C

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't regret my abortion. It was the right thing to do then and eight years later I know without doubt it was the right choice. And I don't feel an iota of guilt either but I don't think people with an obvious agenda like to heat that do they :rolleyes:

I accept that this was your experience of abortion ... but other woman haven't had your experience.

BTW, I have no particular agenda as I am not involved in either the pro-life or pro-abortion lobbies.

Delirium

J C wrote: »

As against your study that says nearly no woman regretted their abortion ... here are references to 9 studies that clearly demonstrate that the do suffer seriously in many cases:-
Quote:-
Studies within the first few weeks after the abortion have found that between 40 and 60 percent of women questioned report negative reactions. Within 8 weeks after their abortions, 55% expressed guilt, 44% complained of nervous disorders, 36% had experienced sleep disturbances, 31% had regrets about their decision, and 11% had been prescribed psychotropic medicine by their family doctor.

http://www.colorado.edu/studentgroups/studentsforlife/cost.html

Interestingly, these studies have found that "The best available data indicates that on average there is a five to ten year period of denial during which a woman who was traumatized by her abortion will repress her feelings.23,24 During this time, the woman may go to great lengths to avoid people, situations, or events which she associates with her abortion and she may even become vocally defensive of abortion in order to convince others, and herself, that she made the right choice and is satisfied with the outcome. In reality, these women who are subsequently identified as having been severely traumatized, have failed to reach a true state of "closure" with regard to their experiences."
This may explain the 95% figure of 'no regret' over the first 3 years in the other study ... where the women involved 'put on a brave face' whilst in denial of what had happened.

Firstly, the page you linked to is a pro-life student group page.

Secondly, the studies that are referenced are amost 40 years old and most of them only carried out 10 years after abortion was made legal in those countries. That means that the women who had an abortion all would have grown up in a society where abortion was viewed as a criminal offense/ immoral.

The study I reference was carried out only 3 years ago, almost 50 years after abortion was made legal. This would mean there was a societal shift with regards to the stigma women would have to endure previously for having an abortion.

J C

eviltwin wrote: »

So even when we say we have no regrets we do.......right

Humans can have different reactions to high intensity life-changing events.

Kiwi in IE

J C wrote: »

I accept that this was your experience of abortion ... but other woman haven't had your experience.

BTW, I have no particular agenda as I am not involved in either the pro-life or pro-abortion lobbies.

Of course not all woman have had the same experience. Women who have had breast reductions or hysterectomies haven't all had the same experience either. Some will think that it's the best thing they ever did, while others may have had a negative experience and feel regretful. If I can drag up a few YouTube videos outlining the personal anecdotes of women who have regretted such procedures, is that a solid argument for them being made illegal for all women?

Delirium

J C wrote: »

I accept that this was your experience of abortion ... but other woman haven't had your experience.

BTW, I have no particular agenda as I am not involved in either the pro-life or pro-abortion lobbies.

Given the content of your posts, it's clear that you're arguing against abortion.

The Randy Riverbeast

Well at least it is based on actual studies. Checking the papers which cite some of those mentioned on the pro life page I found a review from 2008. I spend my days trying to figure out if older health papers are still relevant so I'm used to it.

A clear trend emerges from this systematic review: the highest quality studies had findings that were mostly neutral, suggesting few, if any, differences between women who had abortions and their respective comparison groups in terms of mental health sequelae. Conversely, studies with the most flawed methodology found negative mental health sequelae of abortion.

http://www.contraceptionjournal.org/article/S0010-7824%2808%2900369-7/abstract?cc=y=

lazygal

J C wrote: »

Humans can have different reactions to high intensity life-changing events.

What legal consequences should girls and women who've had abortions face?

J C

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Nor do my close friend or close family member who had abortions back home regret them. But random people who have posted on YouTube with a 'pro life' agenda apparently do, and that holds more weight it seems.

So we have one study that supposedly shows positive results from abortion ... and even then it just tests whether they felt that they didn't regret the abortion. One would have to say, what else would one expect them to say only no ?
What good would regret do anyway?
The study also suffers from the bias of congruence ... i.e. it asked the same group of women the same question starting immediately after the abortion, when they would obviously say they didn't regret it ... and then subsequently they would feel the need to be congruent with their initial position by continuing to claim they didn't regret it.
Indeed the 95 % figure is so high as to be unbelievable ... there is nothing I know of (even pleasant things) that 95% of people would say they didn't regret !!!

The hard figures on the wellbeing of women after abortion tell a less happy story:-
Quote:-
"Over the eight year period studied, women who aborted had a 154 percent higher risk of death from suicide, an 82 percent higher risk of death from accidents, and a 44 percent higher risk of death from natural causes such as cardiovascular disease.
This is the second large record based study to implicate abortion in higher maternal death rates. In 1997 a government funded study of maternal deaths in Finland sent a tremor of worry through family planning agencies when it revealed that in the first year following an abortion, aborting women were 252 percent more likely to die compared to women who delivered and 76 percent more likely to die compared to women who had not been pregnant.
Many of the extra deaths were due to suicide.
The new study confirms the trend found in Finland using a large sample of American women. In addition, where the Finland study was limited to a one year follow-up, the new study reveals higher mortality rates persist over at least eight years."
http://www.theunchoice.com/pdf/articles/deathstudysmj.pdf
... and this study was conducted in 2002 ... almost 30 years after the introduction of abortion in America.

J C

lazygal wrote: »

What legal consequences should girls and women who've had abortions face?

None.
They have gone through enough already ... and in many cases they only went through with the abortion because of unsupportive partners and family.

The Randy Riverbeast

And from 2009 we have
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/amp/64/9/863/

Most adult women who terminate a pregnancy do not experience mental health problems.

Obviously there are going to be varied reactions and any women who have a negative reaction should be receiving treatment, not being encouraged for pro life campaigning. Their regret isnt going to undo the abortion.