Sanctity of Life (Abortion Megathread)

J C

Delirium wrote: »

Given the content of your posts, it's clear that you're arguing against abortion.

... and its clear that you are in favour ... so do you have a pro-abortion agenda?
Like you are accusing me of having a pro-life agenda.

Delirium

J C wrote: »

So we have one study that supposedly shows positive results from abortion ... and even then it just tests whether they felt that they didn't regret the abortion. One would have to say, what else would one expect them to say only no ?
What good would regret do anyway?
The study also suffers from the bias of congruence ... i.e. it asked the same group of women the same question starting immediately after the abortion, when they would obviously say they didn't regret it ... and then subsequently they would feel the need to be congruent with their initial position by continuing to claim they didn't regret it.
Indeed the 95 % figure is so high as to be unbelievable ... there is nothing I know of (even pleasant things) that 95% of people would say they didn't regret !!!

The hard figures on the wellbeing of women after abortion tell a less happy story:-
Quote:-
"Over the eight year period studied, women who aborted had a 154 percent higher risk of death from suicide, an 82 percent higher risk of death from accidents, and a 44 percent higher risk of death from natural causes such as cardiovascular disease.
This is the second large record based study to implicate abortion in higher maternal death rates. In 1997 a government funded study of maternal deaths in Finland sent a tremor of worry through family planning agencies when it revealed that in the first year following an abortion, aborting women were 252 percent more likely to die compared to women who delivered and 76 percent more likely to die compared to women who had not been pregnant.
Many of the extra deaths were due to suicide.
The new study confirms the trend found in Finland using a large sample of American women. In addition, where the Finland study was limited to a one year follow-up, the new study reveals higher mortality rates persist over at least eight years."
http://www.theunchoice.com/pdf/articles/deathstudysmj.pdf
... and this study was conducted in 2002 ... almost 30 years after the introduction of abortion in America.

Check your sources before you cite them

Yet neither the Koop investigation nor the APA review ended the debate. Antiabortion researchers have persisted in trying to prove abortion's harmful mental health effects. Most prominent among them are David Reardon, director of the antiabortion, Illinois-based Elliot Institute, and Priscilla Coleman, family studies professor at Bowling Green State University. Reardon and Coleman believe that abortion harms women, but their own studies and the others upon which they rely to make that assertion are so flawed methodologically that they cannot be said to establish a causal relationship. The studies do not address the fundamental question of whether women who have had abortions experience more adverse reactions than do otherwise similar women who have carried their unwanted pregnancies to term. Again, as described in Abortion in Women's Lives, "none adequately control for factors that might explain both the unintended pregnancy and the mental health problem, such as social or demographic characteristics, preexisting mental or physical health conditions, childhood exposure to physical or sexual abuse, and other risk-taking behaviors.…Because of these confounding factors, even if mental health problems are more common among women who have had an abortion, abortion may not have been the real cause."


By contrast, the Royal Colleges of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and of General Practitioners in the United Kingdom sponsored a major study that did address that fundamental question. The study followed more than 13,000 women in England and Wales over an 11-year period ending in the early 1990s. Importantly, it considered two groups: women facing an unintended pregnancy who had an abortion and women facing an unintended pregnancy who gave birth. The study's authors concluded that those women who had an abortion following an unintended pregnancy were not at any higher risk of subsequent mental health problems than were women whose unintended pregnancy was carried to term.

Source

The Randy Riverbeast

J C wrote: »

So we have one study that supposedly shows positive results from abortion ... and even then it just tests whether they felt that they didn't regret the abortion. One would have to say, what else would one expect them to say only no ?
What good would regret do anyway?
The study also suffers from the bias of congruence ... i.e. it asked the same group of women the same question starting immediately after the abortion, when they would obviously say they didn't regret it ... and then subsequently they would feel the need to be congruent with their initial position by continuing to claim they didn't regret it.
Indeed the 95 % figure is so high as to be unbelievable ... there is nothing I know of (even pleasant things) that 95% of people would say they didn't regret !!!

The hard figures on the wellbeing of women after abortion tell a less happy story:-
Quote:-
"Over the eight year period studied, women who aborted had a 154 percent higher risk of death from suicide, an 82 percent higher risk of death from accidents, and a 44 percent higher risk of death from natural causes such as cardiovascular disease.
This is the second large record based study to implicate abortion in higher maternal death rates. In 1997 a government funded study of maternal deaths in Finland sent a tremor of worry through family planning agencies when it revealed that in the first year following an abortion, aborting women were 252 percent more likely to die compared to women who delivered and 76 percent more likely to die compared to women who had not been pregnant.
Many of the extra deaths were due to suicide.
The new study confirms the trend found in Finland using a large sample of American women. In addition, where the Finland study was limited to a one year follow-up, the new study reveals higher mortality rates persist over at least eight years."
http://www.theunchoice.com/pdf/articles/deathstudysmj.pdf
... and this study was conducted in 2002 ... almost 30 years after the introduction of abortion in America.

That paper was done by the Elliot Institute. A pro life organization. Try using google scholar, theres a risk it might link to somewhere on the internet that isnt a pro life website but helps reduce the conflict of interests.

lazygal

J C wrote: »

None.
They have gone through enough already ... and in many cases they only went through with the abortion because of unsupportive partners and family.

So abortion for those with no regrets whatsoever and-or who didn't find it a difficult process is fine. Good to know.

eviltwin

There is a biological process that follows the end of a pregnancy as hormones readjust. It's completely normal to feel a bit sad or down after an abortion just as it is after a birth. Neither is a sign of regret. Not talking about it shouldn't be read into either. It's a personal thing that some people don't feel comfortable sharing and it can be met with a lot of negativity so why would you leave yourself open to that.

Delirium

J C wrote: »

... and its clear that you are in favour ... so do you have a pro-abortion agenda?
Like you are accusing me of having a pro-life agenda.

No, I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice. I'd think it's glaringly clear by now that I'm arguing in favour of the pro-choice position, so you could say I have an agenda to that effect.

Kiwi in IE

J C wrote: »

None.
They have gone through enough already ... and in many cases they only went through with the abortion because of unsupportive partners and family.

Of course! Women don't know their own minds and therefore can't be trusted to make decisions for themselves.

In one of your recent posts you suggested that women who have had an abortion have an 80 something % increased chance of having an accident than women who have not? Really? That's a good idea for a new placard to stand about with outside abortion clinics "Abortion increases risk of accidents"!

lazygal

eviltwin wrote: »

There is a biological process that follows the end of a pregnancy as hormones readjust. It's completely normal to feel a bit sad or down after an abortion just as it is after a birth. Neither is a sign of regret. Not talking about it shouldn't be read into either. It's a personal thing that some people don't feel comfortable sharing and it can be met with a lot of negativity so why would you leave yourself open to that.

Quite honestly I had moments of regret after having both my children. Thankfully I was self aware enough to realise what was happening and worked my way through it. That doesn't mean regret equals I shouldn't have had children though. Any more than it means regrets over abortion means you made the wrong decision.

J C

Delirium wrote: »

Check your sources before you cite them
[/B]

There is nothing wrong with my sources ... the figures don't lie.
There are higher mortality rates amongst women who have had abortions in comparison with women who have given birth or who haven't been pregnant.

Delirium wrote: »

Source

This was the conclusion of this study:-
"Although it is true that some women who have had an abortion suffer severe mental health problems later in life, the current body of research has not been able to rule out a plethora of preexisting conditions or familial or other contextual factors that could affect or explain those problems. "

In other words the study admits that some women who have had an abortion suffer severe mental health problems in later life ... but then it says that they don't know what caused it. The fact that these women say it was their abortion that caused it might be important.

Delirium

J C wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with my sources ... the figures don't lie.
There are higher mortality rates amongst women who have had abortions in comparison with women who have given birth or who haven't been pregnant.

This was the conclusion of this study:-
"Although it is true that some women who have had an abortion suffer severe mental health problems later in life, the current body of research has not been able to rule out a plethora of preexisting conditions or familial or other contextual factors that could affect or explain those problems. "

In other words the study admits that some women who have had an abortion suffer severe mental health problems in later life ... but then it says that they don't know what caused it. The fact that these women say it was their abortion that caused it might be important.

I'm not entirely sure why you're repeating something I just posted that highlights the flaws with what you posted, or why you choose a flawed report over one by the Royal Colleges of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and of General Practitioners in the United Kingdom.

Still want to claim you've no agenda?

J C

lazygal wrote: »

Quite honestly I had moments of regret after having both my children. Thankfully I was self aware enough to realise what was happening and worked my way through it. That doesn't mean regret equals I shouldn't have had children though. Any more than it means regrets over abortion means you made the wrong decision.

Fair point ... but here's the thing ... the study cited says that 95% of women didn't regret their abortion ... which is a ridiculoulsy high figure given that many women even regret having their children, when going through post-natal depression.

J C

lazygal wrote: »

So abortion for those with no regrets whatsoever and-or who didn't find it a difficult process is fine. Good to know.

I didn't say it was fine ... I was just answering the question I was asked, about whether there should be legal consequences for women who underwent abortions (and I said no).

The Randy Riverbeast

J C wrote: »

Fair point ... but here's the thing ... the study cited says that 95% of women didn't regret their abortion ... which is a ridiculoulsy high figure given that many women even regret having their children, when going through post-natal dpression.

You feel it is ridiculously high when there's a study but felt confident enough to say its more like 95% of women regret it? Wasn't your claim ridiculously high? All you had for a source was a few youtube videos.

J C wrote: »

What is the study you refer to?

Its more like 95% have regrets over abortion, like this young woman who calls her abortion the worst mistake she ever made in her life:-

J C

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

You feel it is ridiculously high when there's a study but felt confident enough to say its more like 95% of women regret it? Wasn't your claim ridiculously high? All you had for a source was a few youtube videos.

I agree that both 95% figures are ridiculously high ... mine was a throwaway remark ... in response to a supposed study result !!!!

robdonn

J C wrote: »

Fair point ... but here's the thing ... the study cited says that 95% of women didn't regret their abortion ... which is a ridiculoulsy high figure given that many women even regret having their children, when going through post-natal dpression.

And, as with post-natal depression, the feelings subsided over time with most women. Hence the study keeping track of the women over the course of 3 years. It's the long term effects that were being studied.

robdonn

J C wrote: »

I agree that both 95% figures are ridiculously high ... mine was a throwaway remark ... in response to a supposed study result !!!!

Not a supposed study result, an actual study result.

In crude data, approximately 95% of women completing each follow-up interview reported that having the abortion was the right decision for them.

The Randy Riverbeast

J C wrote: »

I agree that both 95% figures are ridiculously high ... mine was a throwaway remark ... in response to a supposed study result !!!!

Can hardly refer to it as a "supposed study" when you link to something a pro life group put together and published itself. The author is an electrical engineer (or at least graduated from the department of electrical engineering in a real college) with a PhD from a unaccredited online college. A college which was shut down by the state!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reardon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Western_University_%28Hawaii%29

PopePalpatine

ERMAHGERD, it's Obammer's war on Christians! :eek:

J C

robdonn wrote: »

Not a supposed study result, an actual study result.

... OK so 95% of women who had abortions supposedly had no regrets about the deaths of their unborn children.
Something rings seriously 'untrue' about this ???

I'd have regrets about having to put down my dog or not staying below the speed limit, if I was caught.
I can't imagine I wouldn't have regrets about having my child killed, irrespective of its gestation age ... and irrespective of the circumstances I found myself in ... perhaps even more so, if my circumstances were less than ideal.
But then I'm a man ... and maybe women think differently and don't have regrets about anything they do? I seriously doubt this, though.

The Randy Riverbeast

J C wrote: »

... OK so 95% of women who had abortions supposedly had no regrets about the deaths of their unborn children.
Something rings seriously 'untrue' about this ???

I'd have regrets about having to put down my dog or not staying below the speed limit, if I was caught.
I can't imagine I wouldn't have regrets about having my child killed, irrespective of its gestation age ... and irrespective of the circumstances I found myself in ... perhaps even more so, if my circumstances were less than ideal.
But then I'm a man ... and maybe women think differently and don't have regrets about anything?

Maybe you would just be part of the 5%

Not everyone thinks the same way, it is possible to be in a minority.

robdonn

J C wrote: »

... OK so 95% of women who had abortions supposedly had no regrets about the deaths of their unborn children.
Something rings seriously 'untrue' about this ???

I'd have regrets about having to put down my dog or not staying below the speed limit, if I was caught.
I can't imagine I wouldn't have regrets about having my child killed, irrespective of its gestation age ... and irrespective of the circumstances I found myself in ... perhaps even more so, if my circumstances were less than ideal.
But then I'm a man ... and maybe women think differently and don't have regrets about anything ?

Argument from incredulity.

Try again.

J C

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

Maybe you would just be part of the 5%

Not everyone thinks the same way, it is possible to be in a minority.

Its possible ... but I'd like to think I was living in a society where more than 5% of the population would regret having their children killed.

Maybe it's wishful thinking ... but I still think that its a lot more than 5% actually.

J C

robdonn wrote: »

Argument from incredulity.

Try again.

... so do you believe that only 5% of the population would regret having their child killed?
... or are women having abortions (and their partners/family) significantly different to all other people in this regard?

robdonn

J C wrote: »

Its possible ... but I'd like to think I was living in a society where more than 5% of the population would regret having their children killed.

Maybe it's wishful thinking ... but I still think that its a lot more than 5% actually.

It's easy when you think about it. Not everyone shares your definition of a child. Not everyone believes that life begins when you claim it does. Not everyone views the 'life' of a 5/10/20 week old foetus as equal to that of the pregnant woman.

The Randy Riverbeast

J C wrote: »

Its possible ... but I'd like to think I was living in a society where more than 5% of the population would regret having their children killed.

Maybe it's wishful thinking ... but I still think that its a lot more than 5% actually.

You're assuming that they see it as having their children killed.

There is always a margin of error but peer review would find something to suggest that there was a large fault in the study to provide a margin of error large enough to make it so most women regret having an abortion.

J C

robdonn wrote: »

It's easy when you think about it. Not everyone shares your definition of a child. Not everyone believes that life begins when you claim it does. Not everyone views the 'life' of a 5/10/20 week old foetus as equal to that of the pregnant woman.

That may explain it allright.
So lets look at some plain English on the issues you raise:-
A child is the progeny of oneself and another person ... and it is your child from the moment of its fertilisation.
Human life begins at fertilisation.
... and if a 5/10/20 week old unborn child doesn't have the same right to life as its mother (or father) why should a newborn have such rights?

robdonn

J C wrote: »

That may explain it allright.

A child is the progeny of oneself and another person ... and it is your child from the moment of its fertilisation.
Human life begins at fertilisation.
... and if a 5/10/20 week old unborn child doesn't have the same right to life as its mother (or father) why should a newborn have such rights?

You keep saying that life begins at fertilisation as if it is fact, but it is not a fact. It's a viewpoint, an opinion, one that has a lot of support but is still not a fact.

Overheal

J C wrote: »

Abortion too can cause injury, illness and death to the women involved ... and it is nearly always fatal for the child involved.
There is a lot of glossing over the physical and mental hurt caused to women by abortion.

Even ignoring the stats offered to refute this red herring, it only exhibits why abortion is best performed in a licensed and well regulated facility, not an illegal, underground operation.

J C wrote:

There is nothing wrong with my sources ... the figures don't lie.

Yeah? Did you hear that theres no link between sugar and obesity either? It's true! Coca-cola sponsored the study!

https://www.rt.com/uk/318126-coca-cola-obesity-sugar/

J C wrote: »

Fair point ... but here's the thing ... the study cited says that 95% of women didn't regret their abortion ... which is a ridiculoulsy high figure given that many women even regret having their children, when going through post-natal depression.

I may need to blow your mind for a second: could the reason that some women regret having their children in post-natal depression, be because they felt that abortion would have been the right choice for them? Maybe they wouldn't have anything to regret, had they been given the choice in the matter.

Delirium

J C wrote: »

... so do you believe that only 5% of the population would regret having their child killed?
... or are women having abortions (and their partners/family) significantly different to all other people in this regard?

The study was about women who had abortions.

Its quite likely that women who would regret having an abortion, chose not to have one.

That means that the 95% makes perfect sense as the percentage who didn't regret it.

eviltwin

I'd like to know what those studies mean by regret. I think it's possible many of those women wish they had been in a position to keep their baby and regret the circumstances that led them to choose to have an abortion. I don't think they necessarily spend their days asking themselves why they did it or beating themselves up for having the abortion.