Sanctity of Life (Abortion Megathread)

Delirium

MOD NOTE

Lets try to keep to the topic, i.e. Sanctity of Life/ abortion.

If people wish to ineffability of God, feel to start a new thread.

Thanks for your attention.

Absolam

frag420 wrote: »

So is this defence only afforded to God? Can say a Isis use it as they are against those that do not follow their belief system? Could say Iddy Amin or Robert Mugabe use this defence when they do not step in to stop their own country folk being slaughtered, letting them starve, killing them for believing in something different?

I don't think it's a defence; it's a feature of the deity. Like wheels on a car or a roof on a house. Whilst I reckon most people find the actions of ISIS incomprehensible to some degree, they're probably not beyond our ability to comprehend? Ditto your other examples.

frag420 wrote: »

Why should got get a her very own get out of jail free card or as it should be know, the fingers in my ears and if I cant hear you then it didnt happen defence?

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say, but if you're asking why does God get to avoid responsibility for his actions I think you're not quite getting the concept; God may very well be entirely responsible for everything ever, but we can't comprehend his reasoning, because of ineffability.

frag420 wrote: »

As for it sux to be human? Not really, I love being human. I get to have sex, lots of it (outside of any kind of meaningful relations too:eek:), I get to have holidays, eat good food, drink beer, have a great job, live in a great city etc etc etc

Me too. But wouldn't it be even better to be ineffable?

frag420 wrote: »

However I would say it sux to believe that you made by someone who does not really give a damn about you once he is finished making you............which is kinda similar to how the church views fetus & children. We will protect you as a fetus but once you grasp your first breath of air you are on your own even if born into poverty, born with half a head, no limbs etc!!

I dunno. Maybe it feels good to know there's an ineffable plan

Absolam

Delirium wrote: »

MOD NOTE

Lets try to keep to the topic, i.e. Sanctity of Life/ abortion.

If people wish to ineffability of God, feel to start a new thread.

Thanks for your attention.

Oops, sorry! I shall mention ineffability no more (on this thread), promise!
Unless it somehow relates to the sanctity of life... which it might?

cd07

guys guys guys. I had a beautiful true Catholic mass going wife who believed in God and the whole 9 yards immensely. and this is a wee bit off topic but anyway. .. she was killed tragically some time ago alone with our child. so explain to me where her God or the God of my child "who didn't know of any" was that day? now I don't want to hear of any 'it was gods plan crap' where was their right to life , left in a so called gods hands??????

cd07

didn't think so.........

Absolam

I'm sorry for your loss cd07. I think this may not be the right forum for you to post your question in though, if you don't want to hear that people think it was God's plan. A&A might be more suited, or better yet the Bereavement forum?

cd07

I respect your thoughts and I'm sorry. bereavement forums don't seem to help as of the tragic nature of the situation nor do counselling or medical care. unless you have lived through and experienced true trauma and devastation nobody can say otherwise. I'm a realistic person and I see the world as it actually happens around me and tbh it ain't all as rosy as the majority of people in our safe little country think. one minute everything is great. ..and the next you're totally devoid of life as in nothing absolutely nothing no comfort in anything. so tell me where does one go? the church didn't work for my beloved family so I'm just gonna trust in me and trudge through life in a world of pain and see if a God finds me........not counting on it.

Kiwi in IE

cd07 wrote: »

guys guys guys. I had a beautiful true Catholic mass going wife who believed in God and the whole 9 yards immensely. and this is a wee bit off topic but anyway. .. she was killed tragically some time ago alone with our child. so explain to me where her God or the God of my child "who didn't know of any" was that day? now I don't want to hear of any 'it was gods plan crap' where was their right to life , left in a so called gods hands??????

I can't answer your question cd07, I will leave it to the Christians to try and explain that one, but I am terribly sorry for the loss of your wife and child.

robdonn

cd07 wrote: »

guys guys guys. I had a beautiful true Catholic mass going wife who believed in God and the whole 9 yards immensely. and this is a wee bit off topic but anyway. .. she was killed tragically some time ago alone with our child. so explain to me where her God or the God of my child "who didn't know of any" was that day? now I don't want to hear of any 'it was gods plan crap' where was their right to life , left in a so called gods hands??????

cd07, the Catholic/Christian/Theistic answer of "God has a plan" is extremely unsatisfactory, but to be honest, so can the atheistic answer of "bad stuff just happens". It's at times like this that I think having theistic beliefs could be beneficial because at least you would have someone you can be angry at, but alas reality is never that good to us.

You might want to check out Grief Beyond Belief, they're a peer-to-peer grief support group that don't try to fluff things up with magic.

ABC101

@ cd07,

Very sorry for your loss, an immense loss as well.

I think you are asking the right question too. Because very strange things happen in life.... just one example; some people would make great parents, yet are childless.... and other people have children but drag the children up, treat them rough and on occasions abuse the child. Life is so bizarre at times it is very hard to make any sense of it.

I do believe in God.... but he does seem a very very tough God..... There is a lot going wrong down here on planet Earth and yet God seems willing to stand by and let it all happen. Sometimes I get annoyed / angry as to why God allows the world become such a mess. In a split second God could banish evil, sort out climate change, unemployment, war, famine etc etc

Perhaps it is to do with God respected humanities decision of free choice. If God was to reveal himself.... humanities freedom of choice would be annulled.

WRT your own unfortunate situation....the only thing I can think of .... is that God stood by up in Heaven..... and he looked down upon the crucifixion of his own Son Jesus.

Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane had a rough night... he was having cold feet about the whole idea of getting crucified. When dying on the Cross.... Jesus calls out "My God my God why hast thou forsaken me".

Suffering seems to be a integral part of humanity.... and also a integral part of Christianity. The martyers all died painful unjust deaths, St Peter was crucified upside down etc. St Sebastian shot with arrows, and another saint (St Lawrence of Rome) was barbecued alive. There are a whole rake of them who suffered very rough unjust deaths.

The only words of consolation I can offer to you is that.... your wife and child are most probably in Heaven.... and they are far far happier there than ever possible here on Earth.

Your wife and child are free of all the crap down here, no worries about cooking, finances, working for cranky employers, worrying about what time it is or the traffic. They are now free of all that hassle.

I don't wish to tell you what to do... but if I may suggest... having a read of some of Mr Colm Keanes books. He has written over 20 books, very easy to read, some titles are 'Going Home', 'The Distant Shore', Padre Pio The Irish Connection.

Available in any good book shop... about 14 euro each etc. Get yourself down the bookshop, pick up one of the books and have a browse through it. Its all about death experiences, people going to the other side etc... .mentions some interesting observations too, like the light we live in as 7 different colours... but on the other side the quality of light is much better... more than 20 different colours etc

looksee

ABC101 - if you had actually read cd07's post you would realise that your post was less than helpful.

Someone said to me, shortly after my 14 month old baby died, many years ago 'now you have a little angel in heaven'. She had no idea whether this would be helpful to me at all, it helped her feel good about herself by making a suitably sanctimonious comment. It just made me angry as well as sad.

Yes, this is the Christianity forum and cd07 might have expected that response, but sometimes a little bit of cop on goes a long way.

looksee

duplicate

ABC101

looksee wrote: »

ABC101 - if you had actually read cd07's post you would realise that your post was less than helpful.

Someone said to me, shortly after my 14 month old baby died, many years ago 'now you have a little angel in heaven'. She had no idea whether this would be helpful to me at all, it helped her feel good about herself by making a suitably sanctimonious comment. It just made me angry as well as sad.

Yes, this is the Christianity forum and cd07 might have expected that response, but sometimes a little bit of cop on goes a long way.

If I have offended cd07 I think he is capable of posting for himself, or do you post for him too?

Did you find my entire post unhelpful? Or was it just certain parts of it?

As you correctly mention, this is a Christianity forum....but I am coming to the conclusion that Christian posters are being subject to a certain form of censorship as to what they are allowed to post about Christianity in a Christianity forum.

I have mentioned this to you before, where you have complained about my posts where I quoted Edmund Burke.

It is also clear that you have personal issues with Christianity, which Raises questions about your suitability as a moderator for a Christianity forum.

I cannot see you acting in a fair objective impartial manner as a moderator given your personal issues with belief / faith understanding.

So what are Christian believers allowed to mention / post in a Christianity forum?

Kev W

ABC101 wrote: »

If I have offended cd07 I think he is capable of posting for himself, or do you post for him too?

Did you find my entire post unhelpful? Or was it just certain parts of it?

As you correctly mention, this is a Christianity forum....but I am coming to the conclusion that Christian posters are being subject to a certain form of censorship as to what they are allowed to post about Christianity in a Christianity forum.

I have mentioned this to you before, where you have complained about my posts where I quoted Edmund Burke.

It is also clear that you have personal issues with Christianity, which Raises questions about your suitability as a moderator for a Christianity forum.

I cannot see you acting in a fair objective impartial manner as a moderator given your personal issues with belief / faith understanding.

So what are Christian believers allowed to mention / post in a Christianity forum?

Receiving a response you don't like is not "censorship". Grow up.

Shrap

ABC101 wrote: »

It is also clear that you have personal issues with Christianity, which Raises questions about your suitability as a moderator for a Christianity forum.

I cannot see you acting in a fair objective impartial manner as a moderator given your personal issues with belief / faith understanding.

So what are Christian believers allowed to mention / post in a Christianity forum?

Looksee is not a moderator of the Christianity forum.

Delirium

MOD NOTE

As Shrap correctly pointed out, looksee is not a moderator of the Christianity forum.

And disagreement is not censorship.

Back on topic please everybody.

Overheal

Here's a recap. Only Florida and Ohio found anything untoward, but neither them nor any other state found any alleged sale of fetal tissue:

http://www.npr.org/2016/01/28/464594826/in-wake-of-videos-planned-parenthood-investigations-find-no-fetal-tissue-sales

Florida

In July 2015, Florida Republican Gov. Rick Scott ordered a state investigation to see whether Planned Parenthood was "selling body parts," Politico Florida reported at the time. On Aug. 5, the agency investigating the clinics released its findings, saying that none of the state's Planned Parenthood sites had been selling tissue or body parts. However, the investigation did find that one clinic out of Florida's 16 wasn't correctly keeping its records of fetal remains. In addition, three were found to have been performing second-trimester abortions while only being licensed to perform abortions in the first trimester, according to Politico. Planned Parenthood disputed this, arguing that the state had changed the rules on how it measured the first trimester, as Reuters reported. Though it briefly looked like the state and Planned Parenthood agreed on the issue, Politico reported, the organization was fined in September 2015.

Georgia

Republican Gov. Nathan Deal on July 16, 2015, asked the state's Departments of Community Health and Public Health to investigate whether Planned Parenthood was engaging in the "horrific practice" that the CMP's videos claimed to depict. On Aug. 13, the Department of Public Health reported that all five of the clinics had "proper procedures in place for burial or internment of [fetal] remains," as NPR member station WABE reported.

Indiana

In July 2015, Republican Gov. Mike Pence asked the state Department of Health to investigate the state's Planned Parenthood clinics, to see whether they were engaging in any sale of fetal tissue, local TV station WTHR reported. Weeks later, the department said it had "concluded there was no evidence of this type of activity" at three Planned Parenthood facilities in the state, as the Indianapolis Star reported.

Kansas

On July 21, 2015, Republican Gov. Sam Brownback asked his state's Board of Healing Arts "to address the issue of sale of tissue and organs from the unborn" at Planned Parenthood facilities, the Topeka Capital-Journal reported. This month, the board said it had "determined no further action would be taken at this time," per the Associated Press.

Massachusetts

On July 17, 2015, Republican state Rep. James Lyons sent a letter to Democratic state Attorney General Maura Healey, asking her to launch an investigation into whether Planned Parenthood was participating in fetal tissue sales like those the CMP video purported to show, as the Boston Herald reported. On July 29, Healey responded in a statement that the state's Planned Parenthood sites were "fully compliant with state and federal laws regarding the disposition of fetal tissue" and were not participating in any fetal tissue donation, though it is legal in that state, as the Boston Globe reported.

Michigan

On July 16, 2015, Republican state Sen. Phil Pavlov asked the state to investigate "to determine whether or not any Michigan-based facilities have participated in the horrifying sale of babies' body parts," MLive reported. In October, the two departments handling the investigations issued a statement, saying that "there is no evidence to date that illegal practices are occurring," MLive reported.

Missouri

On July 21, 2015, Democratic Attorney General Chris Koster started an investigation, saying that "the questions raised by [CMP's] videos require careful review," local TV station KMBC reported. In September, a release from Koster's office said the investigation turned up no "irregularities involving the transmission, examination, or disposal of the fetal organs and tissue" from abortions at the state's one clinic that performed surgical abortions, as the New York Times reported.

Nevada

In September 2015, Nevada Republican Attorney General Adam Laxalt sent a letter to Nevada Planned Parenthood facilities. Mentioning the videos, the letter asked the sites about their abortion procedures and also asked if they donate fetal tissue, as the AP reported. In December 2015, his office closed the investigation, saying that the facilities weren't performing surgical abortions and that there also wasn't evidence of tissue donation, according to the AP.

Ohio

In mid-July 2015, Ohio Republican Attorney General Mike DeWine announced that he was launching an investigation into whether any Planned Parenthood clinics in the state were selling fetal parts, according to Cleveland.com. In December, the state released the investigation, revealing that there was no evidence of any such sales. However, investigators did find that fetal remains were disposed of via incinerators or landfills, which, while not illegal, DeWine claimed "violate[d] Ohio administrative code," as Cleveland.com reported. (An Ohio Planned Parenthood official disputed his claim.)

Pennsylvania

In July, two Republican state legislators asked the state attorney general to investigate whether Planned Parenthood in Pennsylvania was selling fetal tissue, Philly.com reported. In August, state Health Secretary Karen Murphy responded in a letter that there was no evidence that any Pennsylvania facilities were buying, selling or donating fetal tissue, as The Hill reports.

South Dakota

In July 2015, Republican state Attorney General Marty Jackley instructed the state Health Department to investigate whether fetal tissue sales were occurring at Planned Parenthood, the AP reported. On Aug. 11, 2015, Jackley told the Associated Press that "there are no reports, complaints or inspection records that would demonstrate any evidence (of) illegal activity in South Dakota at this time."

Washington

In late July 2015, 34 Republican lawmakers wrote a letter asking Democratic Attorney General Bob Ferguson to investigate whether the state's Planned Parenthood clinics were selling fetal parts, the Seattle Times reported. In November, Ferguson reported that the state had found no evidence that the state's affiliates were selling fetal tissue. Washington is home to one of only two clinics (the other being in California) that Planned Parenthood says currently donate any fetal tissue to researchers.

In addition, eight states (California, Colorado, Delaware, Idaho, Iowa, Minnesota, New Hampshire, and Virginia) decided not to pursue investigations into the videos' allegations.

Investigations Still Ongoing

Not that the investigations are over — Arizona and Louisiana, for example, still have investigations in progress, according to Planned Parenthood. And in Texas, Abbott likewise said after this week's indictment that a state investigation into Planned Parenthood will continue.

"The Health and Human Service Commission's inspector general and the attorney general's office have an ongoing investigation into Planned Parenthood's actions," Abbott said. "Nothing about today's announcement in Harris County impacts the state's ongoing investigation."

In addition, the Ohio Senate this week voted to block government funding to Planned Parenthood. CMP's videos factored heavily into the debate over that bill, which will go to Republican Gov. John Kasich, who is firmly anti-abortion and is expected to sign it.

The Randy Riverbeast

Had a look at a pro life websites assuming that they would have something on these investigations. Im not normally one of those people who question why a news (or "news" in this case) aren't running a story because I understand that these types of things are a specialist area but when a website about abortion is leaving these out it raises an eyebrow, in fact the top of the page still has mention of the videos.

They even mentioned the videos in an article yesterday.

frag420

Good to see Christian Pro Life Groups maintaining their Christian morals...........oh wait a sec....they are up to the same thing they are always up to!!

You stay classy Christians!!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/how-abortion-opponents-secretly-bought-a-virginia-abortion-clinic/2016/02/04/08a3b1c4-c4f5-11e5-8965-0607e0e265ce_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_dvorak-1130am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

Overheal

that's just sleazy. I thought only the devil pulled those kind of deceptions?

Absolam

frag420 wrote: »

Good to see Christian Pro Life Groups maintaining their Christian morals...........oh wait a sec....they are up to the same thing they are always up to!!

You stay classy Christians!!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/how-abortion-opponents-secretly-bought-a-virginia-abortion-clinic/2016/02/04/08a3b1c4-c4f5-11e5-8965-0607e0e265ce_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_dvorak-1130am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

Whereas the classiness of the pro choice camp remains unadulterated :-)
NARAL recently ripped into the Doritos Superbowl ad for 'humanising foetuses'. Check out the replies to their tweet if you're interested in a bit of silliness from both sides...

Delirium

always knew this debate was going to be lost by the side lacking a funnybone :P

robdonn

Absolam wrote: »

Whereas the classiness of the pro choice camp remains unadulterated :-)

Do you have examples of a pro-choice group proudly deceiving women about medical services that they are entitled to?

Absolam

robdonn wrote: »

Do you have examples of a pro-choice group proudly deceiving women about medical services that they are entitled to?

I don't. Is that the new measure of classiness we have to conform to now? I think I missed the memo.

robdonn

Absolam wrote: »

I don't. Is that the new measure of classiness we have to conform to now? I think I missed the memo.

I must have misspelt your email, sorry about that. :P

By no means am I implying that the pro-choice side is squeaky clean, but I have not heard of pro-choice groups using such deceitful tactics to get their way. I could be wrong, of course, and would be more than happy to hear arguments to the contrary.

cattolico

Absolam wrote: »

Whereas the classiness of the pro choice camp remains unadulterated :-)
NARAL recently ripped into the Doritos Superbowl ad for 'humanising foetuses'. Check out the replies to their tweet if you're interested in a bit of silliness from both sides...

Yes, its astonishing people take exception to the humanity and REALITY of the unborn.

(Doritos has a big increase in sales BTW!)

Absolam

cattolico wrote: »

Yes, its astonishing people take exception to the humanity and REALITY of the unborn.
(Doritos has a big increase in sales BTW!)

That might be because the controversy ended up engaging people across a spectrum of opinions, I wouldn't be thinking it's an endorsement for the pro life movement in fairness

PopePalpatine

Over the course of 17 months, five women who were admitted to Mercy Health Partners Hospital in Muskegon, Michigan due to miscarriages, nearly died as doctors weren't allowed to induce a birth until either the foetal heartbeat stopped or the woman developed sepsis.

hinault

robdonn wrote: »

I must have misspelt your email

The word is misspelled.

robdonn

hinault wrote: »

The word is misspelled.

What word is misspelt?