Guinness Pro12 2015/2016 Season thread

thomond2006

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think it's very hard to predict. There was 80,000 people in Twickenham for the premiership final this year. That seems a very high figure, I think a lot of those people make their minds up quite early. They do a lot of advertising for that from early on which helps I think. I think we could certainly get 40k to a Pro 12 final.

IIRC don't the Premiership sell a lot of cheap early bird tickets months in advance?

It was never going to be in Ireland again this year but I thought they would have gone with Wales, maybe Liberty Stadium.

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

IIRC don't the Premiership sell a lot of cheap early bird tickets months in advance?

Yeah, I remember getting an email or two along those lines. No reason the Pro 12 shouldn't do the same.

thomond2006

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah, I remember getting an email or two along those lines. No reason the Pro 12 shouldn't do the same.

10,000 tickets @ £10?

phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

IIRC don't the Premiership sell a lot of cheap early bird tickets months in advance?

It was never going to be in Ireland again this year but I thought they would have gone with Wales, maybe Liberty Stadium.

The biggest support base for the league is in Ireland and perhaps in hindsight not having it in Euro land was a mistake.

Hiraeth

thomond2006 wrote: »

It was never going to be in Ireland again this year but I thought they would have gone with Wales, maybe Liberty Stadium.

Unlikely that it would be the Liberty as the Ospreys rightly chose not to bid for a second successive final.

And I doubt the other Welsh regions put a bid in either as their home grounds don't fulfil the league's criteria for a final venue.

total former

phog wrote: »

The biggest support base for the league is in Ireland and perhaps in hindsight not having it in Euro land was a mistake.

Not much they can do if the stadia in Euro land don't bid for it.

phog

total former wrote: »

Not much they can do if the stadia in Euro land don't bid for it.

Is that a fact?

Either way, it could easily be held in Euro land. The Pro12 take ownership of of the final as always but select a venue without requiring a bid.

total former

phog wrote: »

Is that a fact?

Either way, it could easily be held in Euro land. The Pro12 take ownership of of the final as always but select a venue without requiring a bid.

So they ask who wants it, reject the actual bids and impose it on someone who doesn't want it?

It would be a different angle on the tendering process, I'll give you that.

phog

total former wrote: »

So they ask who wants it, reject the actual bids and impose it on someone who doesn't want it?

It would be a different angle on the tendering process, I'll give you that.

No. They decide where they want to host it.

phog

I see on Twitter that the Edinburgh marathon is on the same weekend the Pro12 final. That could push up the cost of accommodation.

CatFromHue

There were 17K runners in the full and half marathon from last year so it's going to make accommodation for any travelling fans hard to get, let alone any price increases. Anyone doing the marathon will book accommodation months in advance too.

Unless there some how hoping to get people from the marathon to go to the final this is really looking like record low for the final. Pretty much if Glasgow don't make it this could have maybe only 5K at it :O

phog

An option for Irish fans might be to fly into Glasgow, stay in Glasgow and day trip to Edinburgh.

vienne86

phog wrote: »

An option for Irish fans might be to fly into Glasgow, stay in Glasgow and day trip to Edinburgh.

Yep, but if I were to go to that match I would want my overnight to be in Edinburgh - great city.

phog

phog wrote: »

An option for Irish fans might be to fly into Glasgow, stay in Glasgow and day trip to Edinburgh.

And/Or Newcastle. Train from Newcastle to Edinburgh isn't expensive

thomond2006

Ashley Beck probably gone for the season, ruptured ACL: http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_77792,00.html

Great player but IIRC he missed a lot of last season as well?

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ashley Beck probably gone for the season, ruptured ACL: http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_77792,00.html

Great player but IIRC he missed a lot of last season as well?

Yup, was only available from Nov-> February last season.

Pretty disastrous set of events, I think he's an absolutely excellent 12, very much a different mold from the inside centres that Wales have been producing as he's far more interested in linking up and playing clever than breaking down doors.

iamjenko

total former wrote: »

So they ask who wants it, reject the actual bids and impose it on someone who doesn't want it?

It would be a different angle on the tendering process, I'll give you that.

That'd be par for the course round these parts!

sydneybound

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think you're massiely underestimating the price of UK rail, amazingly you can fly from Dublin to Edinburgh with Aer Lingus for less than a train from Bath to London if you book early enough!

Quite funny reading this...... I booked a return ticket last night from London to Bath for the Leinster game in November for £10 each way, £20 return on the great western website. Ticket will be slightly under £30 so travel and ticket for under £50 is great going.

sydneybound

awec wrote: »

If they even hit 20k I'll be shocked.

It will get much more than 20k. It will be over 30k and with a bit of luck 40k. They've got 9 months to advertise the hell out of the event, that's a long time to sell tickets.

Tickets are £20, that's next to nothing to attend a sporting final of any variety. I bet the Pro12 are hoping for a Glasgow V Ulster final.

Whoever gets there they'll have a bigger crowd than last years 17k. I see this as a massive move forward for the league something we all have to get behind.

Podge_irl

sydneybound wrote: »

It will get much more than 20k. It will be over 30k and with a bit of luck 40k. They've got 9 months to advertise the hell out of the event, that's a long time to sell tickets.

Tickets are £20, that's next to nothing to attend a sporting final of any variety. I bet the Pro12 are hoping for a Glasgow V Ulster final.

Whoever gets there they'll have a bigger crowd than last years 17k. I see this as a massive move forward for the league something we all have to get behind.

If the Pro12 are hoping to make up the numbers once the finalists are known they are in for some serious disappointment. The whole point of this is to try and create an event which is agnostic to the finalists - we're nowhere close but I like the idea and hope they develop it. They can't be hoping for the finalists to fill the venue though, short of a Glasgow-Edinburgh final you won't get much travelling support I would think. There just isn't time to organise it.

awec

How many people are realistically going to buy tickets, flights and accommodation before their team is there? A few thousand at best?

There is no way it will be over 30k. People flying over as a neutral to a European final is one thing, flying to the Pro 12 final is something else entirely.

awec

awec wrote: »

How many people are realistically going to buy tickets, flights and accommodation before their team is there? A few thousand at best?

There is no way it will be over 30k. People flying over as a neutral to a European final is one thing, flying to the Pro 12 final is something else entirely.

Well I'm tempted to do that marathon now if that's any consolation.

vienne86

awec wrote: »

How many people are realistically going to buy tickets, flights and accommodation before their team is there? A few thousand at best?

There is no way it will be over 30k. People flying over as a neutral to a European final is one thing, flying to the Pro 12 final is something else entirely.

You are quite right. I'm beginning to think that this 'chosen venue' idea for the final is really stupid.

thomond2006

vienne86 wrote: »

You are quite right. I'm beginning to think that this 'chosen venue' idea for the final is really stupid.

In the long run it won't be. It's going to take time for it to grow on people. The mistake is seemingly no early bird tickets being sold.

phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

In the long run it won't be. It's going to take time for it to grow on people. The mistake is seemingly no early bird tickets being sold.

How many fans would actually buy cheap early bird tickets now? If your team gets to the final then ideally you want to be with your supporters not spread out in the cheap seats.

The tickets will be probably be the cheapest part of attending the final.

total former

I think it's a great idea, in general. Murrayfield is not the best choice, however, I think 20-30k is a realistic target but that won't even be 50% capacity so it will take away from the occasion.

jacothelad

phog wrote: »

How many fans would actually buy cheap early bird tickets now? If your team gets to the final then ideally you want to be with your supporters not spread out in the cheap seats.

The tickets will be probably be the cheapest part of attending the final.

On the last 3 or 4 years history, only half the teams in the league have a serious chance of reaching the final. I would imagine that once the shake out at the end of the season becomes clearer that fans will only then look seriously at going. Edinburgh is a good city for an expensive weekend and as the Edinburgh marathon is on at the same time accommodation will be difficult to obtain. Fortunately for me if it's Ulster, I have 'access' to a flat there.
Given the apparent disenchantment with the Pro12 from our Welsh comrades, I doubt if a final between O's and Blues or Scarlets would generate any interest unless it was in Cardiff. They whine ceaselessly about the - real - difficulties in following their teams to other venues.

thomond2006

phog wrote: »

How many fans would actually buy cheap early bird tickets now? If your team gets to the final then ideally you want to be with your supporters not spread out in the cheap seats.

The tickets will be probably be the cheapest part of attending the final.

The Aviva Premiership sells a lot of early bird seats for its final.

I did say long run in the previous post for a reason. I don't think this year will draw a big crowd but this is the right way to go. Deciding the final venue a week before the final means you will never draw a big crowd and you're forced to hold it at a smaller ground.

jacothelad

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Aviva Premiership sells a lot of early bird seats for its final.

I did say long run in the previous post for a reason. I don't think this year will draw a big crowd but this is the right way to go. Deciding the final venue a week before the final means you will never draw a big crowd and you're forced to hold it at a smaller ground.

Of course getting to Twickenham is easy for any English fan. Get a train. No need to get a plane or boat and no need to change currency and no need to listen to the high pitched whine of the Welsh about why they aren't in the Premiership where they would take the league by storm finishing 1,2,3,and 4 every season.......:pac::pac::pac::pac:

There's also the benefit of having 13m people in the 'Greater London Area' that feeds the premiership final crowd. The enormous numbers make it far easier. You'd get an 'event' even if it was Newcastle vs Worcester in the final.

The ratio of 'randomers' to 'finalists' fans' is far far higher that one can expect at a Pro12 final.

jacothelad

Deleted User wrote: »

There's also the benefit of having 13m people in the 'Greater London Area' that feeds the premiership final crowd. The enormous numbers make it far easier. You'd get an 'event' even if it was Newcastle vs Worcester in the final.

The ratio of 'randomers' to 'finalists' fans' is far far higher that one can expect at a Pro12 final.

Yes, you aren't going to get many neutral 'walk ups' for a Pro12 final, particularly if there is no Scottish team in it in Embra etc.

Hiraeth

jacothelad wrote: »

They whine ceaselessly about the - real - difficulties in following their teams to other venues.

Is there any significant cross-border away support in the Pro-12? I don't think so. Let's knock on the head the myth that some supporters travel and others don't. I guess less than a hundred, and more like fifty, Irish provincial supporters would travel to league matches in Wales. Credit to those that do travel but it is hardly sustainable.

And wasn't there just two bids for this year's final? Maybe it's not such an attractive event to host that some seem to think it is.

jacothelad

Hiraeth wrote: »

Is there any significant cross-border away support in the Pro-12? I don't think so. Let's knock on the head the myth that some supporters travel and others don't. I guess less than a hundred, and more like fifty, Irish provincial supporters would travel to league matches in Wales. Credit to those that do travel but it is hardly sustainable.

And wasn't there just two bids for this year's final? Maybe it's not such an attractive event to host that some seem to think it is.

I agree completely but we don't make such a song and dance about it. The Pro12 is what it is. As we know, many Welsh fans think for some reason, that their teams would suddenly become better by playing in the English League. Maybe they would. They also claim that they would go and watch - say - Ospreys or Scarlets v. Leicester et al. citing historical reasons and huge crowds of 2 or 3 thousand that used to turn up at the Gnoll to see Bath. In fact more Welsh fans turn up to watch them play Irish teams than English Teams in the Souper Duper Set Up for English Teams To Win It CUp.

There are many things wrong with the Pro12 set up, including expensive, time consuming cross border travel, Friday Games and the fact that the majority of Welsh fans don't want it. It is in their hands to do something about it. Either help make it work or help shut it down. Welsh rugby doesn't owe anyone anything. One thing is certain though and that is the fact that when the Celtic League was originally set up, the existing historic Welsh teams were not strong enough. The talent was too diluted. There is no going back to those days. It's a pity that Cardiff, Swansea, Scarlets, Neath and Newport weren't simply given the job with players shuffled around to strengthen them.

vienne86

thomond2006 wrote: »

In the long run it won't be. It's going to take time for it to grow on people. The mistake is seemingly no early bird tickets being sold.

They cetainly would need to provide some sort of incentive.

Hiraeth

jacothelad wrote: »

I agree completely but we don't make such a song and dance about it. The Pro12 is what it is. As we know, many Welsh fans think for some reason, that their teams would suddenly become better by playing in the English League. Maybe they would. They also claim that they would go and watch - say - Ospreys or Scarlets v. Leicester et al. citing historical reasons and huge crowds of 2 or 3 thousand that used to turn up at the Gnoll to see Bath. In fact more Welsh fans turn up to watch them play Irish teams than English Teams in the Souper Duper Set Up for English Teams To Win It CUp.

There are many things wrong with the Pro12 set up, including expensive, time consuming cross border travel, Friday Games and the fact that the majority of Welsh fans don't want it. It is in their hands to do something about it. Either help make it work or help shut it down. Welsh rugby doesn't owe anyone anything. One thing is certain though and that is the fact that when the Celtic League was originally set up, the existing historic Welsh teams were not strong enough. The talent was too diluted. There is no going back to those days. It's a pity that Cardiff, Swansea, Scarlets, Neath and Newport weren't simply given the job with players shuffled around to strengthen them.

I'm pleased you agree completely with me although I can't offer the same in response to your comments. A 'song and dance' about it? You seem to be getting quite animated in ventilating your view - 'Souper Duper Set Up for English Teams To Win It CUp' anyone?

I'll try to pick out some of your comments.

huge crowds of 2 or 3 thousand that used to turn up at the Gnoll to see Bath

That's not my recollection. I attended many Bath games at the Gnoll including the barren Neath period of the 1970s and there were certainly more than that there. However I don't know why you raise such historical, albeit erroneous, references to crowds from more than 25 years ago.

The talent was too diluted. There is no going back to those days. It's a pity that Cardiff, Swansea, Scarlets, Neath and Newport weren't simply given the job with players shuffled around to strengthen them.

I'm not sure where you are going with this. The talent was too diluted but there should be five teams playing in Wales cf. the four current regions? Are you saying is is too diluted or should be more diluted? Of course after the regions were established Welsh teams won the league in three of the next four seasons. I wouldn't necessarily draw any conclusions from that other than it probably reflects on how poor the league was, in relation to other competitions, at that time and the lack of interest from some participants.

As we know, many Welsh fans think for some reason, that their teams would suddenly become better by playing in the English League.

From speaking on behalf of Irish supporters you now vocalise on behalf of Welsh supporters too! I can only speak for myself that your comment is tosh. The reason for exploring other playing options is related to revenue. It's nice to get supporters through the gate but that pales in comparison with TV money. Too much focus is put on attendance at matches and too little on TV revenue and certainly the national Welsh media is much to blame for this. As recently reported all Irish provinces make a loss and therefore it would be in their interest to investigate such options too. Indeed Michael Dawson's recent comments acknowledging the extra revenue generation from EPCR competitions is noteworthy and welcome.

phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Aviva Premiership sells a lot of early bird seats for its final.

I did say long run in the previous post for a reason. I don't think this year will draw a big crowd but this is the right way to go. Deciding the final venue a week before the final means you will never draw a big crowd and you're forced to hold it at a smaller ground.

I think both leagues are vastly different products and the more established league still has to offer early bird tickets to grab the attention of the fans.

The premiership is one country, one currency, one language and a huge rugby population available to it almost on it's doorstep. For their fans that are interested in attending the final it's the same trip every year or the same trip as an International.

The Pro12 is almost the complete opposite.

thomond2006

phog wrote: »

I think both leagues are vastly different products and the more established league still has to offer early bird tickets to grab the attention of the fans.

The premiership is one country, one currency, one language and a huge rugby population available to it almost on it's doorstep. For their fans that are interested in attending the final it's the same trip every year or the same trip as an International.

The Pro12 is almost the complete opposite.

What would you do? Go back to the previous system (seeded venue)?

phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

What would you do? Go back to the previous system (seeded venue)?

Tbh, I've mixed views on it. The league itself hasn't really captured the imagination of the fans, in Ireland and possibly across all the clubs we're generally picky about the matches we'll actually go to see.

The seeded venue at least rewarded the better teams though only allowing a week to sell the tickets.

By opting for a neutral venue you run the chance of the home team not being in the final and if we ever have an Italian venue there's a huge probability that neither Treviso nor Zebre will be involved in the final.

Podge_irl

phog wrote: »

The league itself hasn't really captured the imagination of the fans, in Ireland and possibly across all the clubs we're generally picky about the matches we'll actually go to see.

I'm still convinced a large part of that is based on an attitude that can be overcome.

phog

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'm still convinced a large part of that is based on an attitude that can be overcome.

I do too but I also think I'm not understating the level of support the league gets.

Podge_irl

phog wrote: »

I do too but I also think I'm not understating the level of support the league gets.

No you're not. But this is an attempt to make it better and I applaud that. Might go tits up of course, but making the final an "event" is one step towards people taking it seriously.

CatFromHue

tbh I do wonder how many people would go to the Aviva Prem final if they had to fly/ferry to get there or stay overnight.

phog

Podge_irl wrote: »

No you're not. But this is an attempt to make it better and I applaud that. Might go tits up of course, but making the final an "event" is one step towards people taking it seriously.

I suppose it's kind of a chicken and egg situation. Improve the league to improve the support or improve the final to draw support to the league.

I think the final being announced early isn't catching the imagination of the fans. Perhaps it will in time but using a large stadium like Edinburgh in year two of the experiment is a brave move or perhaps foolish even.

jacothelad

Hiraeth wrote: »

I'm pleased you agree completely with me although I can't offer the same in response to your comments. A 'song and dance' about it? You seem to be getting quite animated in ventilating your view - 'Souper Duper Set Up for English Teams To Win It CUp' anyone?

I'll try to pick out some of your comments.


That's not my recollection. I attended many Bath games at the Gnoll including the barren Neath period of the 1970s and there were certainly more than that there. However I don't know why you raise such historical, albeit erroneous, references to crowds from more than 25 years ago.


I'm not sure where you are going with this. The talent was too diluted but there should be five teams playing in Wales cf. the four current regions? Are you saying is is too diluted or should be more diluted? Of course after the regions were established Welsh teams won the league in three of the next four seasons. I wouldn't necessarily draw any conclusions from that other than it probably reflects on how poor the league was, in relation to other competitions, at that time and the lack of interest from some participants.


From speaking on behalf of Irish supporters you now vocalise on behalf of Welsh supporters too! I can only speak for myself that your comment is tosh. The reason for exploring other playing options is related to revenue. It's nice to get supporters through the gate but that pales in comparison with TV money. Too much focus is put on attendance at matches and too little on TV revenue and certainly the national Welsh media is much to blame for this. As recently reported all Irish provinces make a loss and therefore it would be in their interest to investigate such options too. Indeed Michael Dawson's recent comments acknowledging the extra revenue generation from EPCR competitions is noteworthy and welcome.

I should have prefaced my remarks by saying that many of the Welsh fans I 'quoted' spew out their nonsense on sites like Gwlad. I too used to attend the Gnoll in my student days. Great fun and big crowds but the reality is that it wasn't 10,000 as some claim with 20/20 rose coloured hindsight.
As for the 5 teams, I was referencing the fact that there were 5 teams originally set up and of course one was summarily binned ' for the greater good' apparently. I wasn't suggesting anything other than if the actual teams had been given the job then perhaps a lot of residual loyalty would have remained. Go on Gwlad or Rugby Rebels and see what I mean. As for speaking on behalf of Welsh supporters, I only speak for myself and do so as one who lived and played in Wales for a number of years and have more than a passing fondness and interest in rugby there.

CatFromHue

Bit of a better showing from Zebre tonight.

They only lost 13-0 but there was no score after the 29th min and they missed two penalty kicks.

Wang King

Sky are putting a player-mic on McCloskey today for Ulsters game, not sure if its such a great idea myself

thomond2006

Wang King wrote: »

Sky are putting a player-mic on McCloskey today for Ulsters game, not sure if its such a great idea myself

It's been done in the NFL for years.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBlWuQhuNb2VjKgn2kCrnwQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLwXX9vPH1E

Let's see how's it done but it would be very interesting to hear how pro players communicate while on the field. Are they trying to give a rugby insight or a personal insight (which is what NFL Sound FX does)?

errlloyd

I loved it when they mic'd up lealifamo (or however you spell it) in super rugby.

Wang King

thomond2006 wrote: »

It's been done in the NFL for years.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBlWuQhuNb2VjKgn2kCrnwQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLwXX9vPH1E

Let's see how's it done but it would be very interesting to hear how pro players communicate while on the field. Are they trying to give a rugby insight or a personal insight (which is what NFL Sound FX does)?

I suppose you will hear how a crunching tackle from pro athletes sounds, but maybe the calls from players during a game isn't what coaches want.....imagine what the likes of Axel would say if in game calls were broadcast live to Ireland and the UK....think this is totally voluntary, can't see many coaches jumping on board too quickly imo

b.gud

Wang King wrote: »

I suppose you will hear how a crunching tackle from pro athletes sounds, but maybe the calls from players during a game isn't what coaches want.....imagine what the likes of Axel would say if in game calls were broadcast live to Ireland and the UK....think this is totally voluntary, can't see many coaches jumping on board too quickly imo

I'd imagine that similar to the Fox rugby ones these won't actually be heard live. It'll probably surface in a week or so as a highly edited video that gives us a small insight into the kind of chat that happens without giving anything secret away