The arrest and death of Sandra Bland.

Little CuChulainn

BattleCorp wrote: »

I beg to differ. And I have no agenda, I'm just passing comment. I have no skin in this game.

My belief is that this is a case where neither party helped themselves. They both escalated it. He had an attitude and so did she.

It's kind of like the Zimmerman incident. If Trayyvon Martin had kept running away, he would still be alive today.

If Sandra Bland had complied with the police officer's request, she would still be alive today.

Cops will always meet people with bad attitudes. Most cops will base their decision to prosecute a traffic offence on the attitude of the driver. But you cannot arrest someone simply for a being an asshole and I cannot see how this arrest could be deemed legal unless there is some law in that State which allows for a cop to direct someone to put out a cigarette.

As to her death, very few people accept that their friends or relatives have taken their own lives and even less can predict it. There's nothing substantial to suggest she didn't take her own life.

dickwod1

RedemptionZ wrote: »

I'm confused about the big deal here, she killed herself in jail which is obviously a very sad story and shouldn't have been allowed to happen but nobody seems to care about that.

Where does she was arrested, maybe wrongly, actually result in her dying? I doubt they made her kill herself. Or are people implying they killed her?

The woman was in jail for 3 days, She had just got her phone call to post bail and was then found dead hanging by a plastic bag in her cell less than 1 hour after the phone call to get out, Thats why this is so suspicious.

You have to bear in mind the reason this started was not using an indicator while changing lanes, She had just got a new job and was not a murderer/criminal/sex offender etc. who might have thought it better to commit suicide than face the consequences.

LostinKildare

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Again, I dont see what the big issue is with being asked to put out the cigarette.
...
From the transcript above it seems a perfectly reasonable request given properly. Surely the guy should be able to work without havign smoke in his face?

No, not reasonable, and not properly given, because he had no business with her at that point, no lawful reason to be detaining her and making that or any other request. In post 106 above I explain that per a recent US Supreme Court ruling, a police officer cannot keep a person for a traffic violation after serving them the ticket unless (1) he suspects you've committed another crime or (2) there are "safety concerns."

He shouldn't have been bothering her at all after serving the ticket. It's pretty clear he had some problem with her, whether it was because she was black, because she was a woman, because she had a Northern license plate on her car (which yes is a thing in the South, and especially notorious in Texas), or because when he asked her if she was ok -- what did he ask for, if he couldn't handle an honest answer? -- she expressed her irritation rather than cowering under his alpha-male puffed-up authority. Who knows? Maybe he was just having a crap day and blew a fuse.

In any case, you gave her the ticket, let her go -- that's the law. If he got smoke in his eyes, well why didn't he just leave, as he was required to do? He had done his job, he was illegally detaining her at that point (per the SC) to try to force her into submitting to his will, somehow, over a very very small thing. And even that was outside his authority.

BlaasForRafa

Hagar7 wrote: »

Watched the full 52 minutes version on YT.
Also viewed the mayor and various other clips.

Did the cop read her Miranda rights at any stage of his so-called arrest?

Eugene Norman

I'll pop into these threads to point out, once again, that very few people here live in the U.S.

dickwod1

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I'll pop into these threads to point out, once again, that very few people here live in the U.S.

Thanks for the info

Billy86

LostinKildare wrote: »

...or because when he asked her if she was ok -- what did he ask for, if he couldn't handle an honest answer? -- she expressed her irritation rather than cowering under his alpha-male puffed-up authority. Who knows? Maybe he was just having a crap day and blew a fuse...

And not only that, but she did so in a pretty formal/professional manner. It's not like she screamed at him or used expletives or anything; she just firmly stated that she was not OK without being disrespectful to the officer.

karma_

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Why are you going on about black people? I dont see anywhere in my post that mentions doing anything differently if you're black. Would you do things differently based on the race of the cop you're talking to? Did he ask her to put out thecigarette specifically because she black?

I'd consider it common courtesy for people not to blow smoke in my face regardless of either of our race or job. Any time I've been stopped the first thing I do is lower the radio all the way and drop the window right down. I'm probably not legally required to but its common courtesy.

It was hardly an unreasonable request and he said "(would) you mind" and "please". What more do people want? (we're taking that part of the exchange in isolation btw before someone starts going off in another direction)

She was not blowing smoke in his face.

I think it's wonderful the effort you are putting in toward the defence of a man we know was fired for prior racism and who unnecessarily and illegally placed a Black woman in a situation that resulted in her tragic loss of life.

All that cop had to do was just not be a racist and authoritarian dick. You keep defending him though, good job.

cnocbui

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I'll pop into these threads to point out, once again, that very few people here live in the U.S.

My life is now complete ... now you can just pop back out.

cnocbui

BattleCorp wrote: »

I beg to differ. And I have no agenda, I'm just passing comment. I have no skin in this game.

My belief is that this is a case where neither party helped themselves. They both escalated it. He had an attitude and so did she.

It's kind of like the Zimmerman incident. If Trayyvon Martin had kept running away, he would still be alive today.

If Sandra Bland had complied with the police officer's request, she would still be alive today.

If Sandra Bland had been white, she would still be alive today.

darkpagandeath

Why is this a race issue ? Are they trying to paint this as a murder in custody, Looks awfully like negligence. Will have to wait for the outcome. Why don't we get videos of Black cops on power trips ?

darkpagandeath

cnocbui wrote: »

If Sandra Bland had been white, she would still be alive today.

Why does your skin tone affect your mental state ?

LostinKildare

Billy86 wrote: »

And not only that, but she did so in a pretty formal/professional manner. It's not like she screamed at him or used expletives or anything; she just firmly stated that she was not OK without being disrespectful to the officer.

Yes. She was quite controlled given the situation. Apparently he had sped up and come up very close behind her, she thought he was trying to get past her so she moved over into the slow lane to let him by (as you would for police, ambulances, fire engines), then he stops her for not indicating that lane change. Cmon, it is BS. I'd be annoyed too.

I'd say he was tailing her for the out-of-state plate -- one of the first things out of his mouth is "How long have you been in Texas?"

karma_

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why does your skin tone affect your mental state ?

You missed the point entirely.

Guy:Incognito

InTheTrees wrote: »

How about police that respect the rights of citizens?

You really think what was said was unreasonable? How exactly should he have asked her?

darkpagandeath

karma_ wrote: »

You missed the point entirely.

No I did not, One is assuming its a racist cop. And not that he could have done the exact same thing to a white person.

Robsweezie

It's sad that in 2015 there is a need for a hashtag such as #blacklivesmatter

karma_

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

You really think what was said was unreasonable? How exactly should he have asked her?

He could have sung her a sonnet while pirouetting around sprinkling petals in all directions... she still had the right to refuse.

Guy:Incognito

InTheTrees wrote: »

Its not.

Law enforcement cant go demanding citizens do anything other than obey the law.

Thats a pretty basic right. I dont quite get why people dont understand that. In a civilized society law enforcement has to actually follow the law.

I suppose you'd have to have some understanding of the US Constitution to understand. Or Magna Carta.

You're going on about demands and being civilised. The cop said "(would ) you kind putting out the cigarette please". What the **** is demanding and uncivilised about that?

Again. I'd consider it basic common courtesy to do it before even being asked.

But answer single sentences from my posts all you like though.....

karma_

darkpagandeath wrote: »

No I did not, One is assuming its a racist cop. And not that he could have done the exact same thing to a white person.

No need to assume, he was fired from his last 'Police' job for being a racist. Thanks for playing.

Guy:Incognito

karma_ wrote: »

He could have sung her a sonnet while pirouetting around sprinkling petals in all directions... she still had the right to refuse.

So it was a perfectly reasonable request then,yeah? Glad we cleared up that. That's what the conversation was about. Nothing else.

Is that how you deal with people in your everyday life btw? Standing there smoking in their face and if they ask you not to you just say "no, you can't legally make me stop"? Or would it be common courtesy to not do it?

osarusan

karma_ wrote: »

No need to assume, he was fired from his last 'Police' job for being a racist.

He wasn't. That was the sheriff of the country/area.

darkpagandeath

karma_ wrote: »

No need to assume, he was fired from his last 'Police' job for being a racist. Thanks for playing.

Link ?

karma_

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So it was a perfectly reasonable request then,yeah? Glad we cleared up that. That's what the conversation was about. Nothing else.

In the context, no. It was quite the opposite, he was abusing his power. He is precisely the type of filth who has no right to pull on a uniform.

karma_

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Link ?

See post #113

darkpagandeath

karma_ wrote: »

In the context, no. It was quite the opposite, he was abusing his power. He is precisely the type of filth who has no right to pull on a uniform.

Link to him being fired please. And also is there any information on him having done something like this before ?

osarusan

karma_ wrote: »

See post #113

That's about the sheriff of the county, not the officer involved.

karma_

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Is that how you deal with people in your everyday life btw? Standing there smoking in their face and if they ask you not to you just say "no, you can't legally make me stop"? Or would it be common courtesy to not do it?

What I would do is quite irrelevant but yes in this particular context I would explained that there was no chance in hell of me extinguishing my cigarette and proceed to tell him how much they cost in this day and age.

cnocbui

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why does your skin tone affect your mental state ?

No, but there is overwhelming evidence that it affects the mental state of a certain proportion of police officers in the USA.

Had she been white, she wouldn't have been threatened with being physically dragged out of her car, 'lit up' with a tazer, had her head smashed into the ground, been arrested and then put in jail because she didn't comply with an unlawful request that she put out a cigarette.

karma_

osarusan wrote: »

That's about the sheriff of the county, not the officer involved.

I'll stand corrected on that then so.

darkpagandeath

cnocbui wrote: »

No, but there is overwhelming evidence that it affects the mental state of a certain proportion of police officers in the USA.

Had she been white, she wouldn't have been threatened with being physically dragged out of her car, 'lit up' with a tazer, had her head smashed into the ground, been arrested and then put in jail because she didn't comply with an unlawful request that she put out a cigarette.

How does one know that ?

karma_

darkpagandeath wrote: »

How does one know that ?

In your estimation what prompted this cop to abuse his power?

darkpagandeath

karma_ wrote: »

In your estimation what prompted this cop to abuse his power?

No idea, I have no information on a history of him being a Racist or any previous encounters. So could be anything, But lets just jump to Racism first.

karma_

darkpagandeath wrote: »

No idea, I have no information on a history of him being a Racist or any previous encounters. So could be anything, But lets just jump to Racism first.

At least you concede he abused his power and essentially that what this debate is about. And it's a fair bet it was based on race, perhaps one could argue it was gender based or maybe the guy just is an utter dick all the time...

darkpagandeath

karma_ wrote: »

At least you concede he abused his power and essentially that what this debate is about. And it's a fair bet it was based on race, perhaps one could argue it was gender based or maybe the guy just is an utter dick all the time...

Exactly he could have easily done this to a white person. So to me 80% of what is being reported is irrelevant and vested interests jumping on skin tone. Until information of previous encounters that were violent or Racist views. I will reserve judgement on this.

cnocbui

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

You really think what was said was unreasonable? How exactly should he have asked her?

What was said was not only unreasonable, it was illegal. He shouldn't have asked her in any way, which is in part why he has been put on administrative leave for violating arrest procedure.

Do you need to comply with a police demand to put out your cigarette?

There is no law that would require you to put out your cigarette.

...

Do you need to comply with a police demand to get out of your car?

Not unless it’s related to the violation. If a police officer smells alcohol on your breath, he or she can ask you to get out of the car. If you’ve been pulled over for a turn signal violation, there’s no reason to ask you to get out of the car unless there’s something additional in that interaction that rises to the level of probable cause, such as an officer seeing a baggie of pot in the car, or something else that gives rise to a crime.

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/07/23/breaking-down-the-legal-issues-in-sandra-blands-arrest/

And since you seem so peachy keen on people complying with reasonable requests by other people, what is you position on:

“You’re about to break my wrist. Can you stop?”

darkpagandeath

cnocbui wrote: »

What was said was not only unreasonable, it was illegal. He shouldn't have asked her in any way, which is in part why he has been put on administrative leave for violating arrest procedure.


http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/07/23/breaking-down-the-legal-issues-in-sandra-blands-arrest/

And since you seem so peachy keen on people complying with reasonable requests by other people, what is you position on:

“You’re about to break my wrist. Can you stop?”

How did her skin tone affect any of this ?

cnocbui

darkpagandeath wrote: »

How did her skin tone affect any of this ?

Nice try.

darkpagandeath

cnocbui wrote: »

Nice try.

Answer the Question. How does ones skin tone in that situation change anything. We have no information of this guy being Racist or any previous form for abuse of power. All I See is pitchforks as the guy is white and she was black. He could have easily done this to a white woman.

InTheTrees

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So it was a perfectly reasonable request then,yeah? Glad we cleared up that. That's what the conversation was about. Nothing else.

Is that how you deal with people in your everyday life btw? Standing there smoking in their face and if they ask you not to you just say "no, you can't legally make me stop"? Or would it be common courtesy to not do it?

No. Of course it wasn't.

In a civilised society police cant go ordering citizens to do what they want.

The question is why do you think they can?

??

kingchess

Its a request to stop smoking and not an order,she was quite correct to refuse,as a citizen she has rights that should not be infringed ,.by the way there are plenty of vids on youtube such as copblock which shows how cops react when challenged,

InTheTrees

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Answer the Question. How does ones skin tone in that situation change anything. We have no information of this guy being Racist or any previous form for abuse of power. All I See is pitchforks as the guy is white and she was black. He could have easily done this to a white woman.

It doesn't have any bearing.

You need to move on from the race fixation.

Her constitutional rights were clearly violated, she ended up in jail for three days over a traffic stop and was then found dead.

If race isn't a factor would all this be fine with you? You seem to be implying it would be which is odd.

??

osarusan

InTheTrees wrote: »

It doesn't have any bearing.

You need to move on from the race fixation.

Her constitutional rights were clearly violated, she ended up in jail for three days over a traffic stop and was then found dead.

If race isn't a factor would all this be fine with you? You seem to be implying it would be which is odd.

??

They're responding to a post implying race had a lot to do with it.

darkpagandeath

InTheTrees wrote: »

It doesn't have any bearing.

You need to move on from the race fixation.

Her constitutional rights were clearly violated, she ended up in jail for three days over a traffic stop and was then found dead.

If race isn't a factor would all this be fine with you? You seem to be implying it would be which is odd.

??

I'm not the one fixated has one even read the linked article ?

And on the second point http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-U-SdesvtB70/U9VKzU3cB9I/AAAAAAAAU_8/WSDH0OpNriU/s1600/Triple+facePalm.jpg

InTheTrees

darkpagandeath wrote: »

No idea, I have no information on a history of him being a Racist or any previous encounters. So could be anything, But lets just jump to Racism first.

Huh?

Why shouldn't we mention racism? Its a very relevant and current issue.

Its not like we havent also considered he may have been an asshole to everyone regardless of race.

These events are happening practically weekly? Every different variation. Shot by cops whole running away, shot by cops while holding their wallets, shot by cops while standing peacefully outside their houses.
Then theres the south Carolina gunman. Shooting up a church full of black people.

Why wouldn't we talk about racism when this happens in a texas county where they were lynching black people up to the 1950's.

darkpagandeath

InTheTrees wrote: »

Huh?

Why shouldn't we mention racism? Its a very relevant and current issue.

Its not like we havent also considered he may have been an asshole to everyone regardless of race.

These events are happening practically weekly? Every different variation. Shot by cops whole running away, shot by cops while holding their wallets, shot by cops while standing peacefully outside their houses.
Then theres the south Carolina gunman. Shooting up a church full of black people.

Why wouldn't we talk about racism when this happens in a texas county where they were lynching black people up to the 1950's.

Because no one has a shred of proof it was motivated by Race It's not rocket science. Care to link to information stating this was a Racist attack. And I Don't want a special interest groups opinion. Facts.

crockholm

crockholm wrote: »

Once,when I was living over there I had an "interaction" with a cop,I made sure to answer his questions clearly and concisely,and finished the sentence with "sir",even when he asked stupid questions,even when he mocked my Irish surname,I never once gave the fukker any sassmouth.After 10-12 minutes,I was on my way.

That's the way I was in my own interaction with US police (I was drinking on the street and being loud and drunk).

The police were stern, and intimidating, but I just played along with the game of 'yes sir, no sir, 3 bags full sir' and was warned and sent on my way. I had heard that police over there were not to be messed with, so I just showed respect and gave them no reason to arrest me.

Anytime I see these videos of black Americans being arrested by police, they always seem to be resistant and stroppy and lead to the situation escalating.

If they tell you to put out the cigarette PUT OUT THE CIGARETTE
If they tell you to get out off the car GET OUT OF THE DAMN CAR!

Don't ask "why", don't resist because it's a no-win game with the US police. They should surely have learned this lesson by now.

InTheTrees

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Because no one has a shred of proof it was motivated by Race It's not rocket science. Care to link to information stating this was a Racist attack. And I Don't want a special interest groups opinion. Facts.

Your completely missing the point.

There's more than one issue at play here.

Only one of them is the issue of police brilitality against black people.

And racism isn't a crime.

We can still talk about it though if that's alright with you.

The county she was arrested in had the highest number of public lynchings of black people in the state of Texas.

The police chief, who has since resigned was hired there after being fired for racism at his last police job.

darkpagandeath

InTheTrees wrote: »

Your completely missing the point.

There's more than one issue at play here.

Only one of them is the issue of police brilitality against black people.

And racism isn't a crime.

We can still talk about it though if that's alright with you.

The county she was arrested in had the highest number of public lynchings of black people in the state of Texas.

The police chief, who has since resigned was hired there after being fired for racism at his last police job.

And ? What has that got to do with anything ?

There is plenty of brutality going around it's not just all on black people, Yet that's all that seems to get reported.

Wompa1

Deleted User wrote: »

That's the way I was in my own interaction with US police (I was drinking on the street and being loud and drunk).

The police were stern, and intimidating, but I just played along with the game of 'yes sir, no sir, 3 bags full sir' and was warned and sent on my way. I had heard that police over there were not to be messed with, so I just showed respect and gave them no reason to arrest me.

Anytime I see these videos of black Americans being arrested by police, they always seem to be resistant and stroppy and lead to the situation escalating.

If they tell you to put out the cigarette PUT OUT THE CIGARETTE
If they tell you to get out off the car GET OUT OF THE DAMN CAR!

Don't ask "why", don't resist because it's a no-win game with the US police. They should surely have learned this lesson by now.

May be a little different for black people. Chris Rock went through a few months of posting on Instagram each time he got pulled over. I think this lady was clearly getting harassed. I'd bet many do. During Ferguson a retired New York Cop started getting fired up on the radio trying to defend the police and he said the cops are overworked.

He made the point (not realizing how bad it made them sound and how it actually confirms what the black community have claimed) that they would have to meet quotas and were told to meet these quotas by questioning black people for any reason possible. Clearly harassment...

How could anyone remain calm after the umpteenth time of being pulled over.