The arrest and death of Sandra Bland.

InTheTrees

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

What's disturbing about this is that the cop knew he was being filmed and still behaved how he did. I'd imagine not so long ago a prick like that would have dragged her out by the hair, put his knee on her back, cuffed her, thrown her into the car and then made up some story about her assaulting him.

Remember Police in the USA are local. Every town has their own. Its not like Ireland were its one Big Organization. I bet that cop never took the dash cam video seriously. He probably thought he could erase it later.

This was in Texas.

In a county that used to have public lynchings of black people right up to the 1950's..

Its fcuking chilling is what it is. She was terrified. Of course she didnt want to get out of the car.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sandra-bland-waller-county-texas_55ae7aa6e4b0a9b948529e30?

InTheTrees

Here in Washington State, you are allowed to ask for additional officers to be present before you or your vehicle are searched. Of course this is a fairly liberal northern state. While she was in texas, which is one step off being a banana republic.

LostinKildare

The radio news program Texas Standard did an interview with the director of the Texas Civil Rights Project about this case. It clarifies that pretty much everything the state trooper did was wrong--and broadly, that while it is his job to de-escalate the situation, he actually escalated it by his actions-- and that Bland was within her rights to act as she did.

A few quotes:

The trooper asks, “You mind putting out your cigarette please?” And Ms. Bland says, “Well, I’m in my car – why do I have to put out my cigarette?” Does she have to put out her cigarette?
“No, she doesn’t have to put out her cigarette. And you wonder why the officer is even bothering with that. This is part of his escalation of the whole event that unfolded, unfortunately.”
The next part: “Step out of the car.” Ms. Bland says, “You do not have the right.” He interrupts – “I do have the right, step out of the car or I will remove you.” Does he have the right, first, to order her to step out of the car, and second, to actually physically remove her from the car?
“He does not have the right to say get out of the car. He has to express some reason. ‘I need to search your car,’ or, whatever; he needs to give a reason. He can’t just say ‘get out of the car’ for a traffic offense.”
. . .
The trooper says, “I am giving you a lawful order.” Now, is the is the lawful order to extinguish the cigarette, or to get out of the car, or neither?
“You can’t tell why. Certainly, telling her to put out the cig was not a lawful order. Just saying ‘Get out of the car,’ in and of itself, without an explanation, is not lawful. And you see him say that throughout the video without ever saying why [or] what’s going on here. It’s clear to me that he’s trying to assert authority that he probably does not have under the law, and he’s escalating the situation because he is upset.
. . .
“I’m gonna yank you out of here,” is what the trooper says. Can he physically “yank” her out of her vehicle?
“He can’t do that either, unless she’s posing a threat to his welfare and safety. What he should have done was just wait for backup, if he couldn’t de-escalate it himself. But you don’t just pull somebody out of the car, and point that taser in her face. What if it had gone off? She’d have permanent brain damage.”
She says, “Dont touch me, I’m not under arrest.” Trooper says, “You are under arrest. She says, “Under arrest for what?” He then turns to his shoulder mounted radio, and asks for another unit. Does he have an obligation as a law enforcement officer to tell her why she is under arrest?
“Yes. He needs to – it’s not clear to her what’s going on. He needs to tell her, ‘You’re under arrest because …,’ but you can’t really tell her that. Because you can’t tell from the video that there’s any reason to have her under arrest.
. . .
When he says “get out of the car, or I will light you up,” he is apparently referring to the use of a taser. Is that a legitimate threat? Is that something that’s okay for officers to do in that situation?
“No – here’s the situation where he is clearly violating her constitutional rights. This is excessive force on the part of the officer – to take that taser and point it in her face and say, ‘I’m going to harm you.’ Taser is the last recourse to a gun. And if he can’t get her out, he can’t de-escalate it, he’s got to wait for another officer to come and talk through this.”

http://www.texasstandard.org/

seenitall

alchemist33 wrote: »

As bad as this story is (at the very best, a woman who was no risk to society died after being arrested for a very minor traffic offence), the people fuelling the rumour about the mugshot being taken when she was dead need to cop on. This is making a bad situation potentially much worse.

Stupidity of it. Anyone with any kind of cop on can see that is a photo of a very pissed off, very alive person. I don't imagine many corpses can quite pull off the "if looks could kill" expression that she is giving the camera.

The whole story is utterly chilling, though. RIP.

BattleCorp

The cop was a dick. I'm not disputing that but has anybody found out for sure if the cop could legally ask the woman to put out the cigarette?

I did a quick google and found the information below. I'm not standing over it's legality but I got the answer on www.expertlaw.com. Someone asked back in 2010 if a cop can legally ask them to put out a cigarette.

When you are detained, they have limited control over your actions. The could, in fact, have ordered you to EXIT the car.

The officer is not legally required to subject himself to the carcinogens of cigarette smoke, nor is he or she required to allow you the possibility of using the cigarette as a weapon or distraction device. If directed to put it out or put it down, you can either acquiesce, or you can push the issue and risk arrest. It is your call.

In short, yes, they can order you to put out a cigarette and if you refuse, you may go to jail. They can also order you to take your hands out of your pockets, put them IN a pocket, they can order you in or out of a car, they can have you stand or sit down, etc. There are many things that the officer can have you do when you are detained - within reason, of course.

InTheTrees

I hope there's a chain of high profile lawyers waiting to represent her family in the massive Civil law suit that will follow this. That town is going to pay dearly.

InTheTrees

BattleCorp wrote: »

The cop was a dick. I'm not disputing that but has anybody found out for sure if the cop could legally ask the woman to put out the cigarette?

I did a quick google and found the information below. I'm not standing over it's legality but I got the answer on www.expertlaw.com. Someone asked back in 2010 if a cop can legally ask them to put out a cigarette.

I think the "within reason, of course." are the important words in your quote.

SHe was never given any reasons for what the cop was doing.

Hagar7

deco nate wrote: »

But this is about a woman that died under police custody, then the police release the video that has been edited by someone and then when found out the police chief resigns.
Audio left intact /parts of the video were reused, did you watch the video?

Watched the full 52 minutes version on YT.
Also viewed the mayor and various other clips.

BattleCorp

I found the transcript very informative.

The cop was a dick and she wasn't much better.

The edited police video has me intrigued.

InTheTrees

BattleCorp wrote: »

The cop was a dick and she wasn't much better.

What do you think she did wrong?

InTheTrees

Wompa1 wrote: »

My number 1 pet peeve about driving in America. NOBODY uses their indicators...he wasn't pulling her over for that. Hell, in the video he does a U-turn right after she pulls out at a junction.

He was harassing her. He claimed she changed lanes without indicating..which to me would legitimize what she said to him. She changed lanes because he was on her ass. Still...she AND everybody should use their indicators but I've driven in over 20 states here and people do not use them and I don't see people getting pulled over for it. So that's BS

I know. Amazing.

In a country where only about 1 in a thousand people use their turn signals he stops her for not using them when changing lanes.

Not even going around a corner, or at an intersection but changing lanes.

Up here in Wa, police cars dont use turn signals, busses dont use turn signals. And this was in texas ffs.

:eek:

Stinicker

The cop treated her well and was very courteous until she shown him attitude and he reacted like police officers do. If she kept her mouth shut none of that would have happened. I myself got pulled over for speeding in New York almost 10 years ago and the police officer couldn't have been a nicer guy, I was wrong and admitted it. Had that woman shown respect she would have got it back.

Hagar7

orubiru wrote: »

I think the fact that she died in police custody puts the police in the wrong to some degree. Regardless of any conversation on race or police brutality, this kind of thing should never happen. If it does happen then there should be a full and transparent investigation.

Something that stands out for me where that she seems to have been in jail for several days before she killed herself? I thought her alleged crime would not be serious enough that they would have to hold her in jail for several days?

Another striking thing is that fact that she refuses to step out of the car when asked. I really feel like if I lived in a culture that frequently reports stories of people just like me being beaten up or killed by police in questionable circumstances that I would just cooperate. Refusing to get out of the car is just giving them an excuse to do whatever they are gonna do.

Here in Ireland we seem to be overly exposed to a lot of these kinds of stories from the USA. We don't really ever find out about incidents where people die in suspicious circumstances involving police in countries like Estonia or Angola or Singapore (just listing random countries) unless it involves an Irish citizen.

While it is clear that someone who is arrested and taken in to custody by the police should never end up dead, is a single incident like this in the USA really worthy of worldwide media attention?

Really good post and some very valid points you make.
My uncle in Orlando and I were discussing this last night,he says he keeps his hands in full view,i.e. on the steering wheel at all times,unless asked for his road licence.
All conversations are monitored by a microphone to each officer which in turn is recorded back to police headquarters.
Too late now obviously,but If I was the officer in question then I'd contact head office asking for advice,even if I was doing the job for a good number of years.

Ash.J.Williams

InTheTrees wrote: »

What do you think she did wrong?

If i, an irish man found myself dealing with an american cop and he says...put out the cigarette and get out of the car, why would i question him? I have no idea what this is about as i'm only catching up but to me Sandra was in the wrong at the beginning. In fact she was being a dick.

LostinKildare

There's another interesting piece on the legalities here:
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/07/22/3683281/supreme-court-say-sandra-blands-arrest/

The gist of it is that the Supreme Court ruled in April that police cannot extend the length of a traffic stop, even for just a few minutes, absent (1) a safety-related concern or (2) a reasonable suspicion that the driver has committed an additional crime. From the SC ruling:

“the tolerable duration of police inquiries in the traffic-stop context is determined by the seizure’s ‘mission’ — to address the traffic violation that warranted the stop, and attend to related safety concerns.” A police stop “may ‘last no longer than is necessary to effectuate th[at] purpose.’ Authority for the seizure thus ends when tasks tied to the traffic infraction are — or reasonably should have been — completed.”

He had already written the ticket and presented it to her, so the "tasks tied to the traffic infraction" were completed, and he should have sent her on her way. But instead he extended the stop by asking her if she was all right, and when she expressed her annoyance he got miffed and asked her to put out the cigarette.

If he tries to argue in court that he was justified in extending the stop because the cigarette posed a "safety concern" he will have a hard time of it. She didn't threaten him with it. Even if he could establish that, it is worth noting that he never actually gives her a direct order to extinguish it -- “you mind putting out your cigarette, please, if you don’t mind?” can reasonably be heard as a request that may be refused. And second, he never even mentions the cigarette (or indeed his drawing of the taser) in his incident report.

Wompa1

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

If i, an irish man found myself dealing with an american cop and he says...put out the cigarette and get out of the car, why would i question him? I have no idea what this is about as i'm only catching up but to me Sandra was in the wrong at the beginning. In fact she was being a dick.

Yeah but you're not black...

Also, Americans aren't entitled the same way many of us consider the Irish to be..they don't have very generous social programs but they are entitled in other ways. They are led to believe that they live in this just system and they have freedom. This lady knew her rights. She didn't even have to roll down her window, if she didn't want to. She could smoke her fag in her own car.

There's a side here that says, she should have just been polite and everything would have been ago. I question people who's reaction to an extreme abuse of power like this as well, she should have been nice....why does she have to be nice. She was being harassed...it's clear that she was being harassed.

ohnonotgmail

Hagar7 wrote: »

Really good post and some very valid points you make.
My uncle in Orlando and I were discussing this last night,he says he keeps his hands in full view,i.e. on the steering wheel at all times,unless asked for his road licence.
All conversations are monitored by a microphone to each officer which in turn is recorded back to police headquarters.
Too late now obviously,but If I was the officer in question then I'd contact head office asking for advice,even if I was doing the job for a good number of years.

the officer was only in the job for a year. and it shows.

seamus

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

If i, an irish man found myself dealing with an american cop and he says...put out the cigarette and get out of the car, why would i question him? I have no idea what this is about as i'm only catching up but to me Sandra was in the wrong at the beginning. In fact she was being a dick.

As an Irish man in a foreign country dealing with foreign cops, of course you would. That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

In Ireland if a Garda told you to put out a cigarette and got mouthy with you about it, you'd be incredulous, and you 'd question him. Because you're at home and you're more comfortable at home.

Responding to an asshole by belligerence is not being a dick.

InTheTrees

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

If i, an irish man found myself dealing with an american cop and he says...put out the cigarette and get out of the car, why would i question him? I have no idea what this is about as i'm only catching up but to me Sandra was in the wrong at the beginning. In fact she was being a dick.

She a 22 year old minority woman in a place known for its racist authorities, in a country where news of african americans being shot by police is almost weekly.

And shes faced with a cop clearly acting outside his authority and making unreasonable demands.

She tries to tell him she wants to call her lawyer. She tries to ask for backup.

And look what happened?
Would you blame another 22 year old black woman for being terrified if it happened to them again tomorrow?

cnocbui

crockholm wrote: »

A lit cigarette could be seen as a potential hazard or a weapon.This may seem ott,but the potential to hurt someone with a stubbie is there.On other cop shows like "Speeders",when the person pulled over is smoking the responding officer asks them to extinguish the ciggie,which they tend to do.

You can poke someone's eye out with a finger. Should the police hand a pair of secateurs through the window and ask motorists to 'please remove your fingers and thumbs and step out of the car'?

kylith

Stinicker wrote: »

The cop treated her well and was very courteous until she shown him attitude and he reacted like police officers do. If she kept her mouth shut none of that would have happened. I myself got pulled over for speeding in New York almost 10 years ago and the police officer couldn't have been a nicer guy, I was wrong and admitted it. Had that woman shown respect she would have got it back.

I think that he was courteous until she questioned him. Faced with anything other than blind 'Yessir, rightawaysir' he couldn't handle it. Had he offered a legitimate reason for wanting her to extinguish the cigarette, such as the smoke getting in his eyes or asthma, she may have been much more co-operative. As it was as soon as she questioned him he became belligerent: get out of the car, I'm going to taze you, you're under arrest.

cnocbui

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the officer was only in the job for a year. and it shows.

Lol! He wasn't exactly a newbie.

Texas sheriff involved in the death of Sandra Bland fired from previous post for racism

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/07/16/1402770/-Texas-Sheriff-involved-in-the-death-of-Sandra-Bland-fired-from-previous-post-for-racism

Hagar7

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

Interview with ex Baltimore cop Michael A Wood on his real experiences. Some truly shocking revelations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5nPyf-0UMc

Sadly,that's been happening for years and years,good story though,cheers.

InTheTrees

Wompa1 wrote: »

I question people who's reaction to an extreme abuse of power like this as well, she should have been nice....why does she have to be nice. She was being harassed...it's clear that she was being harassed.

Exactly.

When faced with an obviously rogue cop, how do you know it isnt going to get considerably worse when you get out of the car?

ohnonotgmail

cnocbui wrote: »

Lol! He wasn't exactly a newbie.



http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/07/16/1402770/-Texas-Sheriff-involved-in-the-death-of-Sandra-Bland-fired-from-previous-post-for-racism

you need to read the article you linked to. the article refers to Waller County Sheriff Glenn Smith. The officer who arrested Sandra Bland was Brian Encinia and was only in a job a year from reports i have read.

BattleCorp

InTheTrees wrote: »

What do you think she did wrong?

Not doing what she was told. The cop was a dick and was way over the top but she didn't help herself.



And here is some of her attitude towards the cop. It's a section taken from the transcript of the incident.

Encinia:

Knock it off!


Bland: Nah that would make you feel better about yourself. That would make you feel real good wouldn't it? Pussy ass. ****ing pussy. For a failure to signal you’re doing all of this. In little ass Praire View, Texas. My God they must have ...

and a few seconds later

Encinia:

I said stay over here. Stay over here.


Bland: Ooh I swear on my life, y'all are some pussies. A pussy-ass cop, for a ****ing signal you’re gonna take me to jail.

People are saying that he had an attitude and was racist. Possibly true.

Bland was a civil rights activist and a member of Black Lives Matter which is pretty much an anti-police organisation.

Racism on both parts and stupidity on both parts.

InTheTrees

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you need to read the article you linked to. the article refers to Waller County Sheriff Glenn Smith. The officer who arrested Sandra Bland was Brian Encinia and was only in a job a year from reports i have read.

True, but thats the police chief of the town involved.

He was police chief of another Texas town and was fired for racism. But they hired him in Waller County, because presumably the racism didnt bother them.

This is the climate in the town where this woman was pulled over. And she would have known it too.

hatrickpatrick

osarusan wrote: »

Ah, not this sh!t again, please.

In fairness it's a valid point. The establishment in America is happy to stoke the fires of those turning this into a race debate, in order to distract from the primary issue which is not race, but a police force which is full of power tripping, out of control thugs, a lack of accountability, a total impunity for wrongdoing, and an overly-weaponised policing culture.

It's easier to sweep those issues under the carpet if the media continues to talk only about the racism angle - not about the fact that cops should be charged with assault if they commit assault, and that allowing ordinary police forces to use tanks as part of riot control is batsh!t f*cking insane.

InTheTrees

BattleCorp wrote: »

Not doing what she was told.

Bland was a civil rights activist and a member of Black Lives Matter which is pretty much an anti-police organisation.

Totally lost me on this.

So you think its best to just cave in to police abuse? Give in to bullies?

She was a civil rights activist so she knew her constitutional rights.

ohnonotgmail

InTheTrees wrote: »

True, but thats the police chief of the town involved.

He was police chief of another Texas town and was fired for racism. But they hired him in Waller County, because presumably the racism didnt bother them.

This is the climate in the town where this woman was pulled over. And she would have known it too.

which is absolutely, completely, irrelevant to my post. I said

the officer was only in the job for a year. and it shows.

now as this sheriff has not previously been mentioned on the thread, to my knowledge, it was pretty damn clear i was referring to the officer who made the traffic stop. and when i say "it shows" i am referring to the completely cack-handed manner in which he behaved. so tell me again why the sheriff you linked to is anyway relevant to my post?