Dysfunctional insurance market strikes again (older used cars in the firing line)

Daaryl

Special Circumstances wrote: »

They already can discriminate based on employment sector or lack of.
If they were to use this valid datapoint and just ask people to submit documentary proof of having worked as X for a decent amount of time in their life then they could weed out the majority of the fraudsters. In my imagination at least.

Unfortunately this is probably outside what they can legitimately ask for up front, assuming proper official documentation would be needed (tax returns or whatever) rather than random headed paper letter.
Are there no legitimate hoops for responsible car enthusiasts to jump through?

The 3 refusal letters can get you insured on anything weather the insurance companies like it or not i thought?

Nermal

Special Circumstances wrote: »

I'm suggesting that in any industry where a loss is seen as a real loss, and not something that can be recouped ASAP from a captive market, that pay and/or headcount suffers.

Obviously, insurers do this type of thing all the time to a lesser extent ("no GTIs, no high performance french family saloons, no aftermarket radios") but do you think they have taken too much of a jump in one go this time, or will Paddy just suck it up as usual?

I recall a few layoffs big enough to make the news in 2014/2015. Then again, I do remember at least one hiring announcement also. Pay is pretty tight at the lower levels and I'd say that will continue to be the case, it is pretty cuthroat and this will make it worse.

Maybe this restriction will annoy enough people to force some sort of regulatory change. If not I think 'Paddy will suck it up' for the next few years, yes.

Old diesel

Special Circumstances wrote: »

I'm suggesting that in any industry where a loss is seen as a real loss, and not something that can be recouped ASAP from a captive market, that pay and/or headcount suffers.

Obviously, insurers do this type of thing all the time to a lesser extent ("no GTIs, no high performance french family saloons, no aftermarket radios") but do you think they have taken too much of a jump in one go this time, or will Paddy just suck it up as usual?

Its too much of a jump in one go - but you can't change the minds of people who are irrational enough to change the risk of a car that was perfectly acceptable to ensure on 24th of December one year - but that exact car is uninsurable - with SAME owner/claims history on the 2nd of January because in the meantime it went from 14 years old to 15.

Need to develop a policy that suits CAREFUL owners and enthusiasts of older cars.

Hence why I mentioned the Uk example.

Btw found one of those Ford mags from 2011 - company advertising insurance - Brentacre - have a client Jeff Seddon who according to the add has a 700 bhp twin engine Golf.

Adrian Flux and 2 other insurers/brokers advertising in the same mag.

Btw - this link shows how a UK company looks at modified cars a tad more positively then youd think https://www.adrianflux.co.uk/modified/ ie they recognise the whole car enthusiast who loves their car thing - and realise that can positively impact on risk.

Nermal

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Are there no legitimate hoops for responsible car enthusiasts to jump through?

Something like that will come along, after all there is profitable premium there for the taking if you can target it. This was a pretty indiscriminate defensive measure that was rushed in quickly.

Old diesel

Special Circumstances wrote: »

They already can discriminate based on employment sector or lack of.
If they were to use this valid datapoint and just ask people to submit documentary proof of having worked as X for a decent amount of time in their life then they could weed out the majority of the fraudsters. In my imagination at least.

Unfortunately this is probably outside what they can legitimately ask for up front, assuming proper official documentation would be needed (tax returns or whatever) rather than random headed paper letter.
Are there no legitimate hoops for responsible car enthusiasts to jump through?

Sadly been a care enthusiast isn't really on the radar of "proper legitimate hobbies". Irish car culture is based around A to B cars driven by people with zero interest in cars as anything other then a way of getting around .

Wish there was a way of identifying all the different owner profiles and different car scenarios in the over 15 years of age car fleet.

Special Circumstances

Nermal wrote: »

Maybe this restriction will annoy enough people to force some sort of regulatory change. If not I think 'Paddy will suck it up' for the next few years, yes.

My reading of the the situation too. It's just rearranging the deckchairs as is, the ship is only going one direction unless the root cause is addressed.

Sadly, a lot of well minded potential classic cars will be consigned removed from the roads or worse before the goal posts move again and affect more people.

mikedoherty99

Old diesel wrote: »

Was this quote since the announcement????

Renewed yesterday
480 including windscreen cover breakdown, and full
bonus protection which I don't normally buy

99 car so not all policies are being hiked
on 15 year old cars

Old diesel

Special Circumstances wrote: »

My reading of the the situation too. It's just rearranging the deckchairs as is, the ship is only going one direction unless the root cause is addressed.

Sadly, a lot of well minded potential classic cars will be consigned removed from the roads or worse before the goal posts move again and affect more people.

Stuff like E39 5 series will be prime candidates for an earlier then hoped trip to the scrapyard

Old diesel

mikedoherty99 wrote: »

Renewed yesterday
480 including windscreen cover breakdown, and full
bonus protection which I don't normally buy

99 car so not all policiesa are being hiked
on 15 year old cars

Sound - good to know.

Bongalongherb

Crazy stuff indeed. I have received calls from the last two days from 5 online insurance companies I done, and I never wanted a call-back. They sounded ecstatic at first and asked me was I happy with the quotes I received online. Well you can imagine how they felt when I told them how I felt about this rip-off quote.

I politely told them... are you having a laugh. I just said not a chance in this world would I pay that, goodbye and have a nice day. The way they were talking to me was if they were giving me an amazing quote. 13 days left to get quotes again, so I will trudge on accordingly.

zeffabelli

mikedoherty99 wrote: »

Renewed yesterday
480 including windscreen cover breakdown, and full
bonus protection which I don't normally buy

99 car so not all policies are being hiked
on 15 year old cars

I have a 97 car. Last year was €350, same company gave me a quote of 570 for this year.

Rang around, best I got was 422 from a different company.

Always amazed me it makes no difference whether you got your license in the post office or actually learned to drive.

beauf

mikedoherty99 wrote: »

Renewed yesterday
480 including windscreen cover breakdown, and full
bonus protection which I don't normally buy

99 car so not all policies are being hiked
on 15 year old cars

They said existing customers renewals would not be hiked. It's only for new customers. Mine was a good bit dearer but had to do the usual del boy haggling and it ended only slightly up from last year.

evosteo

rang around for a few quotes today,

i let my policy lapse last july as i got personal use of a company vehicle so my cars been parked up the last year.

also said id get some quotes on my partners car as her policy's up next month

(my car 2000 1.6l )+ (her car 1998 1.3l)
30+ years
9 years full licence
9 years ncb
0 claims

got 4 quotes so far ranging from €1300 fully comp on the 1.3l to the cheapest €597 TPFT on the 1.6l

my last policy cost me €330 with rsa 2 years ago fully comp with ncb protection

i cant get over some of the quotes. outrageous, and i feel im not going to get much better. such a rip off country :mad::mad::mad::mad:

Bongalongherb

How close we're getting to the economic euthanasia of the less well-off. What else is coming down the line.

Nate--IRL--

Nermal wrote: »

Something like that will come along, after all there is profitable premium there for the taking if you can target it. This was a pretty indiscriminate defensive measure that was rushed in quickly.

I feel there is a bit of truth to this. I can't imagine the 15+ market is small. It does feel like a knee jerk reaction, to balance whatever equation for this quarter year etc, that a company must meet.

Financial business persons, tend not to view past their next bonus. I feel that somebody is trying to make up for a previous fúck up.

EDIT:- I'm not trying to justify this gouging though...just how it might arise.

Nate

Sam Kade

evosteo wrote: »

rang around for a few quotes today,

i let my policy lapse last july as i got personal use of a company vehicle so my cars been parked up the last year.

also said id get some quotes on my partners car as her policy's up next month

(my car 2000 1.6l )+ (her car 1998 1.3l)
30+ years
9 years full licence
9 years ncb
0 claims

got 4 quotes so far ranging from €1300 fully comp on the 1.3l to the cheapest €597 TPFT on the 1.6l

my last policy cost me €330 with rsa 2 years ago fully comp with ncb protection

i cant get over some of the quotes. outrageous, and i feel im not going to get much better. such a rip off country :mad::mad::mad::mad:

Why would you comprehensively insure a 98 car

CJhaughey

Sam Kade wrote: »

Why would you comprehensively insure a 98 car

Often its not much more than TPFT and usually windscreen cover is included.

jimgoose

CJhaughey wrote: »

Often its not much more than TPFT and usually windscreen cover is included.

Not to mention the driving-other-cars extension.

aidanodr

So, these insurance companies will not insure any new clients with cars 15 years or older HOWEVER they will keep insuring existing customers with cars 15 years or older.

Therefore this decision by these insurance companies can have nothing to do with the stated reason of older cars higher risk of accident. If this was a risk based decision they would not insure existing customers 15 year old cars or least of all would considerably raise the cost of doing so.

The crazy implication - if you are an allianz/aviva insured driver of a 15 year old car you are at no/less risk than a driver not insured by them which we know is impossible.

If their data states that older cars are more dangerous and at higher risk, if it is a risk decision based on this data then existing clients should be "tared with the same brush" - if only for their own safety.

Leads me to think there are other unstated reasons for this decision

evosteo

Sam Kade wrote: »

Why would you comprehensively insure a 98 car

There was very little difference in some cases between full comp and tpft. Also you get ncb protection, windscreen cover and the option to drive other cars with cover

Browney7

aidanodr wrote: »

So, these insurance companies will not insure any new clients with cars 15 years or older HOWEVER they will keep insuring existing customers with cars 15 years or older.

Therefore this decision by these insurance companies can have nothing to do with the stated reason of older cars higher risk of accident. If this was a risk based decision they would not insure existing customers 15 year old cars or least of all would considerably raise the cost of doing so.

The crazy implication - if you are an allianz/aviva insured driver of a 15 year old car you are at no/less risk than a driver not insured by them which we know is impossible.

If their data states that older cars are more dangerous and at higher risk, if it is a risk decision based on this data then existing clients should be "tared with the same brush" - if only for their own safety.

Leads me to think there are other unstated reasons for this decision

This is more to do with customer behaviour and the "fraud" they've mentioned. If you have insurance already with them you are highly unlikely to be a fraudster (unless you're playing a long game). Also they have to offer a renewal.

If you are a new customer to them there's a higher chance you are a fraudster. These clients are still likely to be a legit customer shopping around mind you.

Nate--IRL--

Surely the No-Claims Data would be an indicator also?

Nate

Browney7

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

Surely the No-Claims Data would be an indicator also?

Nate

It sure would. They just don't seem to want to know about it.

I'd probably liken the whole thing to a high end shop banning customers entering that are wearing hoodies regardless of who they are because people wearing hoodies are more likely to rob them. It could be johnny sexton or Bernard brogan after training or any decent member of society trying to come in but the shop sticks to the policy.

It looks to me like Aviva or Allianz tried to get first mover advantage. Everyone else saw this (insurance companies would contact brokers in advance warning them and word would get back to other companies via relationship managers etc) and pulled the plug until they sort out what they want to do.

I don't agree with what was done by the way.

Chris_Heilong

“You can’t be left without insurance even if your car is 15-years-old,” says Ombudsman

http://www.sundayworld.com/news/you-can-t-be-left-without-insurance-even-if-your-car-is-15-years-old

We should make this a political issue with the next election in 2016.

Special Circumstances

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

We should make this a political issue with the next election in 2016.

The useless sh1tes that call around to the door will take one look at the driveway and dismiss us as deviants/lunatics for not having a <5yr old derv A-B box.
Somebody with a 70hp focus/golf has some chance I suppose.

PokeHerKing

Quoted 830e fully comp for 01 525i that I'm hopefully buying this weekend. I've 4 years no claims.

UnknownSpecies

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Quoted 830e fully comp for 01 525i that I'm hopefully buying this weekend. I've 4 years no claims.

Depending on your age, that's a great quote. I'm paying more on a 320ci with the same no claims.

Trojan

I've put some quotes I got this year and last year into a publicly editable spreadsheet here: http://bit.ly/insquote15.

Feel free to edit in quotes you've gotten, if we get a bunch in there it could show which the best providers are.

visual

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Quoted 830e fully comp for 01 525i that I'm hopefully buying this weekend. I've 4 years no claims.

Great car and the engine is strong
watch out for worn suspension otherwise a great car.

jimmycrackcorm

I think it's very suspicious that two companies have decided to follow the same line on this at the same time. It smacks of collusion.

FishOnABike

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

I feel there is a bit of truth to this. I can't imagine the 15+ market is small. It does feel like a knee jerk reaction, to balance whatever equation for this quarter year etc, that a company must meet.

Financial business persons, tend not to view past their next bonus. I feel that somebody is trying to make up for a previous fúck up.

EDIT:- I'm not trying to justify this gouging though...just how it might arise.

Nate

Figures quoted in today's media suggest the 15+ market is around 250,000 vehicles.

FishOnABike

beauf wrote: »

They said existing customers renewals would not be hiked. It's only for new customers. Mine was a good bit dearer but had to do the usual del boy haggling and it ended only slightly up from last year.

This sort of quote the customer what we think we can get away with is what gives the general public the perception of the insurance industry being chancers and dodgy dealers.

If your original quotation was accurately based on risk and margins there would not be any scope to reduce it from 'a good bit dearer' to 'slightly up from last year'. The fact that it can be reduced indicates that the original quotation was nothing short of underhanded conartistry.

CJhaughey

FishOnABike wrote: »

Figures quoted in today's media suggest the 15+ market is around 250,000 vehicles.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone from the SIMI had had a word in a couple of ears and promised that things could be made better if certain policies were implemented.

Old diesel

CJhaughey wrote: »

I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone from the SIMI had had a word in a couple of ears and promised that things could be made better if certain policies were implemented.

It would certainly be in their interest if lots of people were needing to upgrade cars due to this - not just this year but EVERY YEAR unless this gets sorted.

Standby for "lobbying" for scrappage schemes to "help" those with cars of 15 years or older - to "facilitate them" in buying a new 161 Dacia Sandero.

jimgoose

Old diesel wrote: »

It would certainly be in their interest if lots of people were needing to upgrade cars due to this - not just this year but EVERY YEAR unless this gets sorted.

Standby for "lobbying" for scrappage schemes to "help" those with cars of 15 years or older - to "facilitate them" in buying a new 161 Dacia Sandero.

From my cold, dead hand. To reject that part of the Buddha that attends to the fettling of sixteen-year-old Jaaags is to miss the Buddha entirely.

Chris_Heilong

Just on the age of car thing.

Filmer Paradise

Been reading this thread with some interest.

Jeez. What'll they think of next?:mad: Looks like you can use your NCT disc to wipe your arse if you drive a '00 or older car!

I drive a '01 hatch. 1.4 & low milage, handy little yoke to tip around in. (We use the wife's car as the main family vehicle).

Insured it yesterday for 320E. I'd hoped to get another few years out of it...

Now it seems that next year I'll be faced with a huge bill for insurance & worse still, the car would be worth zip cos nobody else could insure it either.

I'd have no choice but to scrap a perfectly good car that's got a current NCT & deemed roadworthy by the authorities.

Words fail TBH.:mad::mad::mad:

Filmer Paradise

20/30 years ago, a 10 year old car was a wreck.

Rust was the main problem, along with poor quality control with manufacturers.

Since the late '80s the rust problem started to become a non-issue with cars.

In the last 10/15 years the prospect of running and maintaining a 15/20 year old car became a viable prospect.

In my last post I said I have a 14 year old car. Nothing wrong with it. Goes grand, NCT and all...

Loads of people like me run cars like this. We pay our bills, do things the right way. All legit. All grand....However......

The powers that be see the common Paddy getting a break on something, getting some value on something for a change..

Now that won't do. No Sir.

Invent some sort of rule to gouge more money out 'Paddy'. Expect him to bend over & take it up the arse, as usual.:rolleyes:

We signed up to the NCT years ago on the promise that we would get cheaper insurance premiums.

Well the there's a joke for a start! And the joke is on the Irish motorist, whose been bent over a table & been ridden for all he's worth.

Enough is enough!

Like it or not, this country is still in recession for a lot of people.

Anybody who tries to justify this kind of carry on is as bad as the people that ran this country into the ground in the first place.:mad:

carzony

I just hope people come together and fight this nonsense. Irish Water would be the most recent example of this and believe me that won't last long.....

250,000 customers is something no industry can afford to lose.. I don't think this 'rule' will last long?

Filmer Paradise

carzony wrote: »

I just hope people come together and fight this nonsense. Irish Water would be the most recent example of this and believe me that won't last long.....

250,000 customers is something no industry can afford to lose.. I don't think this 'rule' will last long?

And there's the joke right there.

'Industry'. Yeah right. No such thing as car making, let alone car assembley in this country for donkey's years.

A load of car salesmen dictating what we should drive to fill their own pockets.

And Paddy has to pay for it all.

The usual.

zeffabelli

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I think it's very suspicious that two companies have decided to follow the same line on this at the same time. It smacks of collusion.

fBD also refused me a quote. Aviva didn't refuse but it was extortionate.

I like older cars because they are metal, not fibreglass, and have minimal electronics.... Much cheaper to fix if something does go wrong.

JJJJNR

IMO this a case of people being forced to purchase new cars to stimulate growth, are things really that bad in the fleet of Irish cars, I dont think so, so we now have to be nannied into buying a new car, similar to taxi drivers. This is a step to far in "middle squeeze economics". So what about students that dont have ways to get to college apart from driving a 95 corolla, I think a boycott of these insurers is the only way forward with this.

dr.fuzzenstein

But how do you boycott insurers?
They have said quite clearly "kindly fcuk off if you're driving an older car".
So now what? Drive without insurance? Not an option. They hold all the cards, they decide the deal and we get fcuked up the arse.
Unless some new, miraculous insurance company comes to Ireland and decides to give out cheap insurance to older cars.
Not going to happen. This suits the insurance companies, they just want accountants driving corollas, the government gets more money from higher premiums and more tax take, car dealers will sell more cars at a higher price, everyone wins, except people driving cars and trying to make a living, but they get fcuked all the time anyway and nobody cares for them.
Can anyone name a party that has promised to take on and reform the fcuked up legal sector that likes to award tens of thousands of euros for scratches and owies? Maybe if this state wide theft, subsided by the legal sector was stamped out, we'd have a chance.
Because the insurance companies know that judges knowingly award stupid money to people who are very obviously scamming the system, they have given up, they just throw money at the problem.

Supergurrier

Wtb reg-o type system like in aus/us

zeffabelli

Are there any non Irish insurance companies within the EU that will insure Irish cars?

To Elland Back

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

But how do you boycott insurers?
They have said quite clearly "kindly fcuk off if you're driving an older car".
So now what? Drive without insurance? Not an option. They hold all the cards, they decide the deal and we get fcuked up the arse.
Unless some new, miraculous insurance company comes to Ireland and decides to give out cheap insurance to older cars.
Not going to happen. This suits the insurance companies, they just want accountants driving corollas, the government gets more money from higher premiums and more tax take, car dealers will sell more cars at a higher price, everyone wins, except people driving cars and trying to make a living, but they get fcuked all the time anyway and nobody cares for them.
Can anyone name a party that has promised to take on and reform the fcuked up legal sector that likes to award tens of thousands of euros for scratches and owies? Maybe if this state wide theft, subsided by the legal sector was stamped out, we'd have a chance.
Because the insurance companies know that judges knowingly award stupid money to people who are very obviously scamming the system, they have given up, they just throw money at the problem.

This post sums up the thread IMO

Riverireland

zeffabelli wrote: »

fBD also refused me a quote. Aviva didn't refuse but it was extortionate.

I like older cars because they are metal, not fibreglass, and have minimal electronics.... Much cheaper to fix if something does go wrong.

OH rang Blue Insurance and they are only insuring cars under 10 years old, said that is all they're allowed to do....... By whom or why I wonder.

jamesbondings

Herself has a 15 year old daihatsu coure.. (look it up, smaller than a corsa.) not even her own insurer would cover her. Those who quoted her were coming in at between 800 and 1300....for a 28 year old lady with 8 years no claims bonus. Nothing wrong with the car ever and the average premium over the last few years was 280. She ended up getting covered by 25plus (aig) for 380 ish......and now she is looking to change the car. The car she loves. It has ran constantly with no complaints bar your normal maintenance issues. It was her first car and it has taken her to the UK and back filled with her stuff. Really hope next year she gets quoted something reasonable so she can keep it. Otherwise it will have to go.

Liam McPoyle

Slightly off topic but I was reading another forum and came across a post I had made in my old account about 2.5 years ago.

Link.

Exactly what I predicted would happen, did happen.

Just goes to show that contrary to what some people in here think, people that work in the insurance industry actually know how the insurance industry works.

Who knew!

kuro2k

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

But how do you boycott insurers?
They have said quite clearly "kindly fcuk off if you're driving an older car".
So now what? Drive without insurance? Not an option.

You boycott the insurers in question by refusing to purchase any other insurance product from them such as home, travel and health, simply really