Dysfunctional insurance market strikes again (older used cars in the firing line)

twinsen

To Elland Back wrote: »

If you have a current insurer, you have to do the leg work yourself to find a better quote or use a broker

See couple posts above, I am doing this right now, but they are all refuse to give me a quote

To Elland Back

twinsen wrote: »

See couple posts above, I am doing this right now, but they are all refuse to give me a quote

Are there any other circumstances that may be preventing insurers from quoting? (occupation, named driver, modifications etc)

anonanymore

twinsen wrote: »

Clearly someone must have done a deal with car dealers or something, since for a test I did a quote for 2013 1.6d vw golf and the quote for me was 330.

Maybe the government looking for more VAT.

FortySeven

Here's a funny one. Got my renewal on my classic car policy through. €397 for the year fully comp. I pointed out that I knew a guy driving a much more valuable car with a bigger engine that lived in Dublin who was paying €100 less than me, how is this when they don't recognise no claims?

'Oh, thay must have a lesser policy with another company'

'No, they are insured with yourselves'

Hmm, can you hold?'

'Sure'

'It seems we have a better policy for you, it's the exact same policy but now it is €250 flat rate'

Genius, especially since I know of no such man in Dublin. Tis a hell of a reduction to be sure!

twinsen

To Elland Back wrote: »

Are there any other circumstances that may be preventing insurers from quoting? (occupation, named driver, modifications etc)

Greed would be my guess.

Valetta

twinsen wrote: »

Greed would be my guess.

Don't think you could class an insurance company turning down business as greed.

Got my renewal yesterday.
Last year. €420
Renewal. €450

It's not all bad.

Zurich is the insurer .

To Elland Back

twinsen wrote: »

Greed would be my guess.

Yeah, dirty greedy insurers refusing to take any money off you

In other news, good article here

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/insurers-demand-reforms-to-stem-premium-rises-31527078.html

Liam McPoyle

FortySeven wrote: »

Here's a funny one. Got my renewal on my classic car policy through. €397 for the year fully comp. I pointed out that I knew a guy driving a much more valuable car with a bigger engine that lived in Dublin who was paying €100 less than me, how is this when they don't recognise no claims?

'Oh, thay must have a lesser policy with another company'

'No, they are insured with yourselves'

Hmm, can you hold?'

'Sure'

'It seems we have a better policy for you, it's the exact same policy but now it is €250 flat rate'

Genius, especially since I know of no such man in Dublin. Tis a hell of a reduction to be sure!

So an insurer happily writes off nearly 40% of their premium just because you said you know someone that has a cheaper price?

Ok.

Call me skeptical but unless you actually prove it then its just another anecdote to fit a tired narrative.

Chris_Heilong

Business Cat wrote: »

So an insurer happily writes off nearly 40% of their premium just because you said you know someone that has a cheaper price?

Ok.

Call me skeptical but unless you actually prove it then its just another anecdote to fit a tired narrative.

LoL, thats rich....Insurace companies dont have to prove anything so neither should he.

Here is one for you, prove most of the payouts that insurance companies pay are to fraudulent claims, This seems to be what all the pro insurance peeps keep on coming back to as a reason for high premiums, seems a bit childish putting the blame on something they have no proof of.

To Elland Back

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Here is one for you, prove most of the payouts that insurance companies pay are to fraudulent claims, This seems to be what all the pro insurance peeps keep on coming back to as a reason for high premiums, seems a bit childish putting the blame on something they have no proof of.

If you could prove any claim is fraudulent, it wouldn't be a successful claim

Special Circumstances

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

LoL, thats rich....Insurace companies dont have to prove anything so neither should he.

Here is one for you, prove most of the payouts that insurance companies pay are to fraudulent claims, This seems to be what all the pro insurance peeps keep on coming back to as a reason for high premiums, seems a bit childish putting the blame on something they have no proof of.

Only true believers may bask in the glory of holy light, and they shall understand all as long as they accept without questioning or conscious thought or even the lightest attempt at analysis.

For you may hold the box which contains all of the divine information but you may not look inside! Accept this in blissful ignorance and ye shall be saved!

Go in peace to turn out your pockets my child!

jimgoose

Business Cat wrote: »

So an insurer happily writes off nearly 40% of their premium just because you said you know someone that has a cheaper price?

Ok.

Call me skeptical but unless you actually prove it then its just another anecdote to fit a tired narrative.

40% is a little over the top, but this happens all the time. Ever played Texas Hold 'em? It seems nearly every young Ultan and Aoife manning the telephones at insurance companies has!

Liam McPoyle

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

LoL, thats rich....Insurace companies dont have to prove anything so neither should he.

Here is one for you, prove most of the payouts that insurance companies pay are to fraudulent claims, This seems to be what all the pro insurance peeps keep on coming back to as a reason for high premiums, seems a bit childish putting the blame on something they have no proof of.

Well information has been supplied by myself and others to back up what we have been saying about the spiraling costs of claims and other factors that have effected the insurance industry so I would have thought it only fair that if someone is making statements that some proof of truth could be requested?

Sure when I was on a date with Jessica Alba at the weekend my phone rang, it was only Scarlet Johansen, wondering why Id stood her up.

Boy, was my face red.

See what I mean.

pred racer

Business Cat wrote: »

Well information has been supplied by myself and others to back up what we have been saying about the spiraling costs of claims and other factors that have effected the insurance industry so I would have thought it only fair that if someone is making statements that some proof of truth could be requested?

Sure when I was on a date with Jessica Alba at the weekend my phone rang, it was only Scarlet Johansen, wondering why Id stood her up.

Boy, was my face red.

See what I mean.

The problem is you can quote the spiralling cost of knickers as a reason insurance has gone up if you want, there is no transparency to the customer.
So from what I hear insurance has gone up by 20-30%, my renewal this year went up 100%. Why? No idea......
I'm 45, I have eleventy million years full licence and no claims. I drive a diesel family saloon.
Last year €450 with RSA through the AA, renewal €779
This year €430 With RSA through BOI (actual quote was €390 including a €100 discount for bing a Boi customer, but I added on a couple of extras)
So as usual the insurance company (or the AA, but I doubt this as they want their commission and have no risk in the deal) just pulled a figure out of it's arse and sent it to me! It's like this every year.
Until there is some data published about the risk categories various cars fall into, the categories various ages and living areas fall into there can be no true comparison between companies and quotes.
In the real world, I am the same insurance risk to every company, but in their world I'm not, I'm anywhere from a €390 risk to a €1200 risk and that is bollox.
Until I can ring any company and get a comparable quote which truly reflects my risk status then as far a I and many others are concerned, they are just making it up.

Sorry Business Cat, that's not directed at you, your point just highlights mine.

Chris_Heilong

pred racer wrote: »

The problem is you can quote the spiralling cost of knickers as a reason insurance has gone up if you want, there is no transparency to the customer.
So from what I hear insurance has gone up by 20-30%, my renewal this year went up 100%. Why? No idea......
I'm 45, I have eleventy million years full licence and no claims. I drive a diesel family saloon.
Last year €450 with RSA through the AA, renewal €779
This year €430 With RSA through BOI (actual quote was €390 including a €100 discount for bing a Boi customer, but I added on a couple of extras)
So as usual the insurance company (or the AA, but I doubt this as they want their commission and have no risk in the deal) just pulled a figure out of it's arse and sent it to me! It's like this every year.
Until there is some data published about the risk categories various cars fall into, the categories various ages and living areas fall into there can be no true comparison between companies and quotes.
In the real world, I am the same insurance risk to every company, but in their world I'm not, I'm anywhere from a €390 risk to a €1200 risk and that is bollox.
Until I can ring any company and get a comparable quote which truly reflects my risk status then as far a I and many others are concerned, they are just making it up.

Sorry Business Cat, that's not directed at you, your point just highlights mine.

Exactly

twinsen

twinsen wrote: »

My current insurer is AIG, but after they sent me a quote I decided to look somewhere else. Last year my insurance was 340e, this year they quoted me 720. I onestly do not understand this at all.
Clearly someone must have done a deal with car dealers or something, since for a test I did a quote for 2013 1.6d vw golf and the quote for me was 330.

Just to update in case someone is also looking to insure his old, still working perfectly car, BOI does insure cars over 15 years old.
Got quote for third party fire and theft 280e, with the no claims bonus protection 314e. If you have bank account with BOI with BOI you also get 25%off.

I even started looking to get a new car, but in this case I might keep it for another year(wife not happy).

Liam McPoyle

pred racer wrote: »

The problem is you can quote the spiralling cost of knickers as a reason insurance has gone up if you want, there is no transparency to the customer.
So from what I hear insurance has gone up by 20-30%, my renewal this year went up 100%. Why? No idea......
I'm 45, I have eleventy million years full licence and no claims. I drive a diesel family saloon.
Last year €450 with RSA through the AA, renewal €779
This year €430 With RSA through BOI (actual quote was €390 including a €100 discount for bing a Boi customer, but I added on a couple of extras)
So as usual the insurance company (or the AA, but I doubt this as they want their commission and have no risk in the deal) just pulled a figure out of it's arse and sent it to me! It's like this every year.
Until there is some data published about the risk categories various cars fall into, the categories various ages and living areas fall into there can be no true comparison between companies and quotes.
In the real world, I am the same insurance risk to every company, but in their world I'm not, I'm anywhere from a €390 risk to a €1200 risk and that is bollox.
Until I can ring any company and get a comparable quote which truly reflects my risk status then as far a I and many others are concerned, they are just making it up.

Sorry Business Cat, that's not directed at you, your point just highlights mine.

So you shopped around and got it cheaper, that's what I've been telling people to do, as have many others.

Different insurers will offer different discounts to their brokers, AA are a brokers so its possible / likely that RSA are not offering the AA the same premiums as last year hence the increase. That could be because the book of business that the AA have through RSA has performed badly or perhaps the AA did not write enough business to justify the discounts they were getting.

The BOI insurance seems to have only recently been launched (open to correction there), when launching a new product insurers will offer their agents substantial discounts to try and get new customers. If that business performs well then the premiums should stay pretty stagnant, if it doesn't the rates will increase substantially.

FortySeven

Business Cat wrote: »

So an insurer happily writes off nearly 40% of their premium just because you said you know someone that has a cheaper price?

Ok.

Call me skeptical but unless you actually prove it then its just another anecdote to fit a tired narrative.

Unfortunately having just moved house, the renewal documents were sent to my old address, the new ones are coming here. I will endeavor to get the original renewal from the unknown people in the other house out the other side of the city to satisfy your curiosity. (Obviously they will have to be heavily redacted to post online)

Liam McPoyle

FortySeven wrote: »

Unfortunately having just moved house, the renewal documents were sent to my old address, the new ones are coming here. I will endeavor to get the original renewal from the unknown people in the other house out the other side of the city to satisfy your curiosity. (Obviously they will have to be heavily redacted to post online)

Its going to be a big effort to get the original renewal notice so don't trouble yourself on my account.

I can live with my skepticism.

Kintarō Hattori

Sigh, I hate the insurance market just a little more.

Our first car (a 99 Micra) came back to us after our sister upgraded to a much newer Fiesta. As we don't need it we decided to sell it, it still has tax and NCT until next year. It needed a few things done to it so I spent €250 getting a new battery, coolant tank and a general service.

Put it up for sale recently. Granted it's not the cheapest, I left room to haggle but I've had a good few calls from people who are interested and we come to the 'real price' on the phone. They're happy so go to phone the insurance company to get their son a quote................. no-one can get fuppin insured on the thing. The insurance companies are either not quoting any potential purchasers for it or throwing out massive quotes thus killing any interest.

Toyotafanboi

i think you're dealing with the wrong sorts.

it was my assumption that if you had a current policy with a company, that they would have to allow you to transfer it onto a different vehicle.

the kind of person who looks for your "last price" down the phone and then goes off to look for an insurance quote after haggling down a car over the phone (meaning they don't currently drive or own a car) and then tells you they can't buy it because they can't get insured on it (a Micra, not a Murcielago), is what most would consider a timewaster.

post up your advert 'till we have a look at it

cruizer101

To be fair market for a 99 Micra is going to be a lot of first time driver hence why no insurance to transfer. I'll agree is bit time wasty to be haggling on phone before looking at insurance but there is no doubt that insurance companies have made cars like 99 Micra worth next to nothing ( I realise they weren't worth much to begin with but still in decent knick would have got 1k ish).

GvidoR

Think I found it.

http://cars.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/1999-nissan-micra/10666643?offset=4

Alanstrainor

They are a great little car for learning and city driving. Terrible so see good cars going to waste just because insurance companies decide cars over X years are dangerous.

Kintarō Hattori

GvidoR wrote: »

Think I found it.

http://cars.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/1999-nissan-micra/10666643?offset=4

Quite the detective!

Yes it is a bit of an odd advert but to be fair I'm not rushed to sell it. I had priced it with room to haggle. To be fair the people calling have been fathers looking for a first car for their son. They know the price is a bit rich so have asked if there's wiggle room. At that stage they've then been calling their insurance companies.... and a lot of the time not getting any quote.

Yep a young first time driver will have a high quote but at least there was a hope they'd be able to get one this time last year.

Triangle

Business Cat wrote: »

Different insurers will offer different discounts to their brokers, AA are a brokers so its possible / likely that RSA are not offering the AA the same premiums as last year hence the increase. That could be because the book of business that the AA have through RSA has performed badly or perhaps the AA did not write enough business to justify the discounts they were getting.

I got insurance with the AA this year and it was underwritten by Aviva not RSA. Not sure if they have multiple agreements going at the same time, but from what I understood, they are a tied agent and don't quote the market (although I could be wrong on this!)

*Edit - Damn just saw the date f the post I was quoting!

Toyotafanboi

GvidoR wrote: »

Think I found it.

http://cars.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/1999-nissan-micra/10666643?offset=4

it is hard to believe that a man can't get a grand for that. looks reasonably tidy and the long ownership/ bit of a yarn gives it value imo as you know where the car is coming from so you know you are less likely in for some kind of shock. particularly seeing as it has a bit of tax and test, recent service and a few odd jobs done. yet lads won't hesitate to go out and buy a ropier example for €750 i'l bet.

be a nice car to store in a barn and take out in 15 years time.

Kintarō Hattori

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

it is hard to believe that a man can't get a grand for that. looks reasonably tidy and the long ownership/ bit of a yarn gives it value imo as you know where the car is coming from so you know you are less likely in for some kind of shock. particularly seeing as it has a bit of tax and test, recent service and a few odd jobs done. yet lads won't hesitate to go out and buy a ropier example for €750 i'l bet.

be a nice car to store in a barn and take out in 15 years time.

I thought so. I knew €1000 was rich so I'm really happy with €800-850 which is grand............ but no-one can insure the fecking thing.

jimgoose

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

I thought so. I knew €1000 was rich so I'm really happy with €800-850 which is grand............ but no-one can insure the fecking thing.

That's a little beauty, that is.

smash

Alanstrainor wrote: »

They are a great little car for learning and city driving. Terrible so see good cars going to waste just because insurance companies decide cars over X years are dangerous.

All the talk of government intervention just faded off in to the distance. The insurance ombudsman should really be pushing for more regulation of these companies.

It would be interesting to hear a few figures of people who can no longer get insurance on their cars.

Titzon Toast

This topic feels like the last straw for me. This country was already a nightmare for Petrolheads like us and now it's gotten even worse.
We can't even insure lovely clean old cars anymore. Bad enough the tax and fuel costs are robbery already too.
This wouldn't be allowed in any other country.
We should start up a Petrolheads political party and stand up for ourselves and our motors!
Who's with me?!

smash

Titzon Toast wrote: »

This topic feels like the last straw for me. This country was already a nightmare for Petrolheads like us and now it's gotten even worse.
We can't even insure lovely clean old cars anymore. Bad enough the tax and fuel costs are robbery already too.

My insurance premium has been increased by over €500 and all they're willing to offer is third party fire and theft for that. I shopped around but didn't get too far really.

Between tax, insurance and petrol my car will cost me an average of €140-€150 a week. Some people think that's crazy, but I think it's worth it and I like to piss off Eco warriors.

twinsen

smash wrote: »

My insurance premium has been increased by over €500 and all they're willing to offer is third party fire and theft for that. I shopped around but didn't get too far really.

Between tax, insurance and petrol my car will cost me an average of €140-€150 a week. Some people think that's crazy, but I think it's worth it and I like to piss off Eco warriors.

Did you try BOI insurance? AIG increased my insurance from 320 to over 700, tried to get insurance with othere companies like 123, axa, aviva, aa, all refused to insure or were coming up with quotes like 1500e.
BOI insurance- 314€...

smash

twinsen wrote: »

Did you try BOI insurance? AIG increased my insurance from 320 to over 700, tried to get insurance with othere companies like 123, axa, aviva, aa, all refused to insure or were coming up with quotes like 1500e.
BOI insurance- 314€...

Just tried and got "Sorry we can’t give you a quote online but with a few more details, let's see what we can do."

Cuddlesworth

Alanstrainor wrote: »

They are a great little car for learning and city driving. Terrible so see good cars going to waste just because insurance companies decide cars over X years are dangerous.

43 pages in and its still the big bad corporations fault and not the cold hard statistics then?

Kintarō Hattori

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

43 pages in and its still the big bad corporations fault and not the cold hard statistics then?

Why is insurance so reasonable in other countries but totally out of whack here? How can an insurance company be allowed to exclude insuring cars based on age when it's legally certified to be on the road?

jimgoose

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

43 pages in and its still the big bad corporations fault and not the cold hard statistics then?

It is my view that this business of excluding cars under a certain age is rooted in various insurance company's misreading of the "cold hard statistics". It has a whiff of cargo-cult-by-induction about it. And I deeply, deeply, resent 23-year-old Ultan Shirt and Aoife Slacks dictating what I may and may not insure. I resent it very deeply indeed.

smash

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

43 pages in and its still the big bad corporations fault and not the cold hard statistics then?

Over 20yrs old you can get insurance as a classic. Under 10yrs old you can get regular insurance. What happens during that 10yr gap?

Toyotafanboi

smash wrote: »

Over 20yrs old you can get insurance as a classic. Under 10yrs old you can get regular insurance. What happens during that 10yr gap?

people who can't afford newer cars are either forced to finance something they can't afford, or walk.

5W30

smash wrote: »

Over 20yrs old you can get insurance as a classic. Under 10yrs old you can get regular insurance. What happens during that 10yr gap?

You park the car and leave it for 10 years because it's a death trap.

Then after 10 years you start the car and drive it because it's not a death trap anymore.

That's insurance companies summed up in Ireland. No logic at all just statistics which doesn't factor in real life physics.

Triangle

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

43 pages in and its still the big bad corporations fault and not the cold hard statistics then?

A heavy haulage articulated truck can be insured for 1400 open driving 25+.
How can this be when they were generally being done for around 1800 a number of years ago. That's a huge drop in premium.

It's like the geniuses at the helms have stopped attacking private car policies and are now attacking commercial haulage policies, thereby increasing private car insurance but reducing heavy haulage rates. Possibly still rating for market share and not risk.

Skatedude

smash wrote: »

Over 20yrs old you can get insurance as a classic. Under 10yrs old you can get regular insurance. What happens during that 10yr gap?

you can get classic insurance for cars 15 years and older, not 20.
my 4.4L 97 bmw840 costs 400 a year, but you will have limited milage of 6k a year so wont suit everyone.

Toyotafanboi

Skatedude wrote: »

you can get classic insurance for cars 15 years and older, not 20.
my 4.4L 97 bmw840 costs 400 a year, but you will have limited milage of 6k a year so wont suit everyone.

what criteria do you have to meet?

are you over a certain age?
does the car have to be a certain brand?
do you need a second "daily" car?
how is the mileage verified, do they just take your word?

hi5

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

what criteria do you have to meet?

are you over a certain age?
Usually 25, but I think Carole Nash will do 23 in certain cases.


does the car have to be a certain brand?
No, but some can be a bit funny about some Japanese cars

do you need a second "daily" car?
Yes, usually

how is the mileage verified, do they just take your word?
They seem to just take your word.

Ring around and see what they say.

unkel

Skatedude wrote: »

you can get classic insurance for cars 15 years and older, not 20.
my 4.4L 97 bmw840 costs 400 a year, but you will have limited milage of 6k a year so wont suit everyone.

Only some insurers use the 15 years and then only really on what they deem to be classic cars. In their view, yes, a 15 year old BMW 840 is a classic car and yes maybe even a Mazda MX-5

But not a Toyota Corolla, VW Golf, BMW 320, etc.

Don't give people false hope, dude!

unkel

@Toyotafanboi - don't take my word for it but yes, you usually need to be over 25. It does not necessarily have to be your second car, a partner with another car might do. They usually take your word for it about the mileage and some demand membership of a classic club / make specific club (and do demand proof of that)

That's all in my own experience though, as always check for yourself before you buy and don't assume anything...

Toyotafanboi

unkel wrote: »

@Toyotafanboi - don't take my word for it but yes, you usually need to be over 25. It does not necessarily have to be your second car, a partner with another car might do. They usually take your word for it about the mileage and some demand membership of a classic club / make specific club (and do demand proof of that)

That's all in my own experience though, as always check for yourself before you buy and don't assume anything...

i see a few lads on the owners club have done so successfully (or at least claim to have) with their starlet turbos. i'm over 25, have a daily but as you say, it's the car i'm dubious about.

been threatening to look into it for a while now but now, seems too good to be true though, my car needs more exotic.

Alanstrainor

Yeah I'd love to go that route too, but I doubt a 15 year old 325ci will really fit the criteria, and having to have a second car would negate any benefit at the moment.

Titzon Toast

My car is 18 years old, I'm hoping when it turns 20 I'll get classic insurance on it.
I paid about €900 to insure it recently, at 36 years of age that stings a bit!

SachaJ

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

I thought so. I knew €1000 was rich so I'm really happy with €800-850 which is grand............ but no-one can insure the fecking thing.

Funnily enough that might be just what I'm after and only just down the road. The AA online is quoting me (half the price of the car though). Might drop you a line later.