Dysfunctional insurance market strikes again (older used cars in the firing line)

Bongalongherb

Valetta wrote: »

This is spot on.

Unfortunately most people don't understand the way the insurance industry works..

Yeah, whatever floats your boat. Absolute garbage. Especially to agree to that comment above. 15 year old cars all of a sudden are the cause of it all ?. Planet pluto you are on, or sorry, it's not a planet any-more. :rolleyes:

visual

It is not a competitive market and legal requirement to have 3rd party insurance allows these greedy insurance companies access to the fish barrel and shot gun.

Isn't about time TDs who rush to put anything in law no matter how ill conceive looked out the window of the Dail and realised the insurance industry here is broken and needs reform.

Legal profession and claim culture need addressing but so does the inflated prices.

A 20 k pay out for whiplash is equal to probable profit of 10 customers

while it's pointed out payouts are less elsewhere
What isn't pointed out is insurance is much lower and it is the profit of more likely 20 customers would be needed to off set a whiplash claim.

Special Circumstances

Valetta wrote: »

This is spot on.

Unfortunately most people don't understand the way the insurance industry works..

I don't think the insurance industry in ireland understands how the insurance industry in ireland works, judging by how many have had financial foul ups and general "15yr old cars are Satan's fiery menacing tool" statements.

What hope have we poor souls who try to apply logic and sense to stuff like "sub 150hp diesel family saloons are high performance machines"?

Valetta

Bongalongherb wrote: »

Yeah, whatever floats your boat. Absolute garbage. Especially to agree to that comment above. 15 year old cars all of a sudden are the cause of it all ?. Planet pluto you are on, or sorry, it's not a planet any-more. :rolleyes:

I think you've just proved my point.

Cookie_Monster

Valetta wrote: »

Unfortunately most people don't understand the way the insurance industry works..

clearly, including a lot of people in several major insurance companies who have operated in Ireland recently...

Bongalongherb

Valetta wrote: »

I think you've just proved my point.

That was just sarcasm and tiredness in regards to the lengths insurers (maybe you work as an insurer yourself ?) go to, to muddle the whole insurance with nonsensicals.

You agree to an unjust system of which is only there plain as day to rip off customers. Slimy little thing to do regarding 15 year old fully NCT'd cars.

Flaying around trying to agree that these poor insurance companies are in pain, you seem to think that the ones that are up-holding this idiotic policy disregarding the certificate of road-worthiness are doing it because they are in need of help.

The simple thing with all of this is Greed, it's that simple. I wouldn't trust any insurance company, they are there to bleed you dry slowly but surely. There you are making excuses for insurance companies, don't make me laugh again as it hurts.

Spot on indeed.

carzony

Sorry lads, Is there any statistics showing how many cars/people this could effect? i'm currently in the market for a cheap car and i'm wondering is it worth buying a 00 focus now..

Valetta

Bongalongherb wrote: »

That was just sarcasm and tiredness in regards to the lengths insurers (maybe you work as an insurer yourself ?) go to, to muddle the whole insurance with nonsensicals.

You agree to an unjust system of which is only there plain as day to rip off customers. Slimy little thing to do regarding 15 year old fully NCT'd cars.

Flaying around trying to agree that these poor insurance companies are in pain, you seem to think that the ones that are up-holding this idiotic policy disregarding the certificate of road-worthiness are doing it because they are in need of help.

The simple thing with all of this is Greed, it's that simple. I wouldn't trust any insurance company, they are there to bleed you dry slowly but surely. There you are making excuses for insurance companies, don't make me laugh again as it hurts.

Spot on indeed.

Greed you say? Put a figure on it.

What net margin on average are insurance companies making?

If you can answer, then you may prove me wrong in assuming that mist people don't understand the way the industry works.

Edited to add: I don't work in insurance,

Special Circumstances

Valetta wrote: »

Greed you say? Put a figure on it.

What net margin on average are insurance companies making?

If you can answer, then you may prove me wrong in assuming that mist people don't understand the way the industry works.

Quid pro quo clarice, how did 15yr old cars cause this situation where people working in the insurance industry can't put food on the table???

Valetta

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Quid pro quo clarice, how did 15yr old cars cause this situation where people working in the insurance industry can't put food on the table???

Another post to prove my original point.

Read Rosser's post again, as it explains the position succinctly.

Bongalongherb

Valetta wrote: »

Greed you say? Put a figure on it.

What net margin on average are insurance companies making?

If you can answer, then you may prove me wrong in assuming that mist people don't understand the way the industry works.

Ye see, this is the basic thing you are missing... A person that has no common sense is a person that could not possibly understand such a simple previous comment made.

I don't need to prove anything to you or your insurance company. The majority of the country already know what you crowd are like anyway, and these are the ones that do have pure common sense. Don't insult my intelligence asking me to look for and show debit & data of a greedy and corrupt insurance company system that I obviously have no access to legally.

250,000 drivers have to deal with these greedy capitalistic bastard insurance companies. Your comment looking for debit and data sheets to try and satisfy your needs are irrelevant.

Edited to add: I don't work in insurance

You don't have me fooled.

gctest50

Special Circumstances wrote: »

But... 15 year old cars caused this how?

it's only since about 1999/2000 most cars are fitted with Event Data Recorders

These reduce fraudulent claims - so reduce costs

galljga1

gctest50 wrote: »

it's only since about 1999/2000 most cars are fitted with Event Data Recorders

These reduce fraudulent claims - so reduce costs

How would you know whether one is fitted in your car?

Special Circumstances

gctest50 wrote: »

it's only since about 1999/2000 most cars are fitted with Event Data Recorders

These reduce fraudulent claims - so reduce costs

Not sure if...

CiniO

gctest50 wrote: »

it's only since about 1999/2000 most cars are fitted with Event Data Recorders

These reduce fraudulent claims - so reduce costs

????????????????
Could you elaborate further?

Do you mean something like black boxes on aircrafts?

Special Circumstances

Valetta wrote: »

Another post to prove my original point.

Read Rosser's post again, as it explains the position succinctly.

Another post to prove many people don't understand common sense.

How
does
rossers
post
explain
how
15yr old cars
caused
these
catastrophic
losses
?

gctest50

not quite - but close enough

airbag modules etc record the last few seconds of data - if there is an "event" it gets written to long term storage

Bosch CDR Bosch is the world leader in Event Data Recorder (EDR) information and imaging technology. Since 2000, Bosch Crash Data Retrieval (CDR) products have been trusted internationally by law enforcement, crash researchers, auto manufacturers and government agencies to access EDR information on a wide range of passenger cars, light trucks and SUVs.

Bongalongherb

That reminds me. I should get my guitars insured as well soon, incase a 15 year old car suddenly majastically levitates into the sky and is blown across the road by a strong gust of wind into my guitar room and damages them all. Strange things can happen driving a 15 year old car.

It's possible I suppose the way insurance companies are acting these days.

Bongalongherb

Valetta wrote: »

Another post to prove my original point.

Read Rosser's post again, as it explains the position succinctly.

All I can see is Codology.

Liam McPoyle

Some seriously misinformed people on here.


I cannot be arsed anymore but my final suggestion would be that rather than complaining on here, if you feel you are getting a raw deal from your insurer then lodge a complaint with the financial ombudsman. They are obliged to entertain every complaint made so if it is a case of the insurance cartel sitting in their ivory towers, laughing at all the proletariats while swimming in pools of money a la Scrooge McDuck, just for schits and giggles, they will set things straight and give every one insurance for €0.05.

When your insurer folds because they don't have enough reserves to pay your claim like thousands of Setanta customers last year I'm sure it will be deemed completely worth it.

Valetta

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Another post to prove many people don't understand common sense.

How
does
rossers
post
explain
how
15yr old cars
caused
these
catastrophic
losses
?

Where did you see anyone saying that they do ?

Browney7

Since two of the big boys have stopped underwriting these cars, owners of these cars will have to look elsewhere. This results in the assumed business mix changing for everyone else - compared to what they've priced for - so in order to avoid their business mix changing quickly they'll pull the plug and reevaluate pricing assumptions.

Also, young drivers (particularly males) are far likelier to drive older cars and so its likely Aviva et al have decided they want to cut the number of young drivers but in a nice way (blame the fraudsters Joe!). Pretty sure insurers still collect gender data (establish reserves as per their statutory requirements but can't price discriminate) so they've probably taken a look at their driver profiles and copped they can use this rule to refuse younger drivers.

CJhaughey

I have said this before and people living there have backed this up by showing quotes from NZ that are very reasonable even for deathtraps like classic skylines etc.
The NZ govt administers a system called Accident compensation corporation.
This is a state insurance scheme that is funded through a levy on employers based on risk for a certain job type and other funding sources.
This scheme covers all personal injuries and makes it possible to buy a car and drive it with no insurance. If an injury happens to another party its covered through the ACC.
Thus insurance is not that expensive for the average person in any situation be it motor or otherwise.
The country has a similar size population to Ireland and has a similar sort of urban/rural demographic.
The Government should implement a similar sort of system where insurance is compulsory but covered under the scheme and any additional insurance to further increase cover can be purchased.
I don't see NZ collapsing under the weight of compensation cases so they must be doing something right.

Special Circumstances

Valetta wrote: »

Where did you see anyone saying that they do ?

You may have missed the previous few hundred posts discussing that 15yr old cars are to be refused insurance by two large insurers. You may have missed the media attention.

You may have missed the key phrase "15yr old cars" in my first question when you directed me to find the answer in a post that made no link (explicit or implicit) between these cars and the losses.

You may just be playing childish word games now in a really poor attempt at saving face or avoiding the fact the blunt instrument of banning 15yr old cars is nonsensical. Or you may genuinely have reading comprehension issues. Look, it was late last night - why don't you have a coffee and rewind a few pages to get some context here and try again yeah?

Special Circumstances

Business Cat wrote: »

Some seriously misinformed people on here.

"All 13 year old cars automatically become so dangerous as to be uninsurable at 14/15"

"It's the cars not the people and there is no better way to do this"

"Citroen C5 diesel is high performance"

"We have data to support this, honestly"

"Parroting the ridiculous stuff we present as fact is good, demanding evidence or trying to contradict us will have you labelled as misinformed"

corks finest

Typical ,govt need to step in,and do something for the hard up Irish motorists,sickening,,,having spent 20 yrs in Derry,after coming home in 2000,I couldn't believe the difference,Petrol,tax,issue, state of roads etc,etc

Alex Meier

Business Cat wrote: »

When your insurer folds because they don't have enough reserves to pay your claim like thousands of Setanta customers last year I'm sure it will be deemed completely worth it.

:rolleyes:

TRANSLATION:

"Why can't you see that we're owed a living?"

I don't see Insurance companies folding all over Spain, Portugal, Germ. . . Well basically everywhere else where 15 year old cars are insured at reasonable rates and no issue.

Galadriel

I just tried to get a quote from its4women, have heard bad things about them hence why they're usually cheap, even they won't quote me..haha

Vicxas

Galadriel wrote: »

I just tried to get a quote from its4women, have heard bad things about them hence why they're usually cheap, even they won't quote me..haha

They probably ran screaming when they seen the Evo come up on screen XD

jimgoose

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Another post to prove many people don't understand common sense.

How
does
rossers
post
explain
how
15yr old cars
caused
these
catastrophic
losses
?

It doesn't. Rather, it demonstrates perfectly what I've suspected all along, i.e. that most insurance companies aren't all that shít-hot at interpreting and analysing their own claims data any more than a hill-farmer from Wesht Kerry. In more adult jurisdictions that would translate as "Well that's the business you're in, either get good at it or don't let the door hit you!"

Wibbs

Alex Meier wrote: »

I don't see Insurance companies folding all over Spain, Portugal, Germ. . . Well basically everywhere else where 15 year old cars are insured at reasonable rates and no issue.

Spain can be pricey enough for young drivers, ditto for Germany. Still the biggest issue in Ireland is the legal system handing out daft insurance payments. Reduce that and then the insurance companies would have no excuse for price gouging.

Old diesel

Special Circumstances wrote: »

But... 15 year old cars caused this how?

The basic problem here is that proper risk assessment of cars over 15 years old is deemed too bothersome for insurers to actually bother with - so they've decided they don't need that business - so can just decline it.

There may well be data showing that cars over 15 years old are GENERALLY as a wide group of vehicles - a higher risk.

The problem however is that there is a wide range of vehicles in that group - and a VERY wide ranging group of drivers.

Whats probably needed is a specific policy type for CAREFUL owners with well maintained cars - that recognises the actual risk factor of particular car and owner scenarios.

Perhaps extend the risk assessment criteria for classic vehicles to ALL older 15 year old vehicles.

What I mean by this - is how come you can now have a scenario where by a 1983 Mini can be insured under a classic policy - (nothing wrong with that - perfectly acceptable) - but next year an early 2001 version of the modern MINI will be uninsurable or will require a higher cost to insure for the owner.

The reason - the 1983 Mini under its classic policy has actually been risk assessed - based on the owner and car profile based on who is ACTUALLY taking out the policy.

But its seemingly too hard to look at a number of key factors relating to the MINI - and its owner.

If MINIS are less likely to be pranged then a Honda Civic - then the Civic record should have no bearing on the risk assessment for the MINI.

And if the MINI is being insured by someone whose NEVER had a claim againsed a vehicle they've owned or driven in 15 years - then the fact the Civic might be popular with younger drivers should also be irrelevant.

Basically the risk assessment should be based on INDIVIDUAL owners and their cars. So some 15 year old cars should continue to be insured because the owner has a good history and the make/model stats for that model are good.

Perhaps the insurance experts on here who are unhappy with the boards.ie enthusiast members been sceptical of the reasoning might like to ponder what the risk assessment is here in an example ive just made up

2001 MINI Cooper (the BMW type to ensure no confusion)

35 year old lady owner - full licence for 15 years.

Full no claims discount - NEVER had a claim againsed her either as a name driver or under her own policies.

Shes owned the MINI for 7 years - no claims made.

Next year the risk assessment suddenly changes from - acceptable to insure to unacceptable to insure.

Yet the MINI is still the same car - the driver history hasn't changed - so why has the risk gone up.

Its because ALL 15 year old cars are clearly been risk assessed in EXACTLY the same way based on the stats for ALL cars 15 years or older.

It would be like saying to a 50 year old owner you can't insure a Honda Civic BECAUSE of the claims record of 20 year old Honda Civic drivers.

That's nuts that a 60 year old could be turned down on a car because of the record of 20 year old drivers on that model.

But that's EXACTLY what we are doing here - but based on age - we are assuming that ALL 15 year old cars and their owners are exactly the same bad risk

I believe in the UK that there are insurance companies who specialise in modified cars. Which in an Irish insurers context seems insane.

But its because - as I understand it - they've been able to work out the difference between a boy racer - and hard core enthusiasts who LOVE their cars.

And that the risk between the Sierra enthusiast who LOVES her dream Cossie is a different risk to Adam the 17 year old "chav" with his Corsa who doesn't give a crap about anyone but himself

jimgoose

Wibbs wrote: »

Spain can be pricey enough for young drivers, ditto for Germany. Still the biggest issue in Ireland is the legal system handing out daft insurance payments. Reduce that and then the insurance companies would have no excuse for price gouging.

Speaking of the Continong, it would also be nice to see some of the theoretical EU Good Stuff(TM) in action, whereby instead of being forced to thrash about in our little barrel waiting for the 12-bore one could phone up an insurer in Germany, Bulgaria, wherever and purchase insurance as part of one market.

Special Circumstances

@ Old Diesel, You've described a very similar scenario to the one that will face herself soon.
Very disappointing, that car has been really well looked after (but not wrapped in cotton wool, they are built to be driven), hence my personal anger at such a lazy and nonsensical interpretation of data.

Chris_Heilong

If we are lucky the insurance industry will go bust here and we can then avail of nation or European insurance.

Old diesel

Do we expect on a serious note that the high risk drivers - are all going to just hang up the keys.

The guy driving on bald tyres - is he suddenly going to cop on and put 4 nice brand new bridgestones under him - or is in fact having to buy a newer car mean - that hes even more likely to not bother running proper tyres. Bearing in mind that we assume hes running bald tyres to cut costs/cut corners.

As someone said already - are the muppets who indulge in scams - are they just going to think right - lets stop scamming - I fear that because the age of car is targeted - the scammers are EVEN MORE LIKELY to scam - as they may feel its less likely that they are going to be targeted as drivers to ban as we are going for the age of the car as a solution.

Point being - if its ALWAYS the drivers of the oldest cars that are going to have the higher risk drivers - we could keep driving the age limit downwards - and where do you end up - 10 years, 8 years, 5 years????.

Special Circumstances

Someone to pop in and tell Old Diesel he "simply doesn't understand insurance" in 3...2...1.....

Apologists - we know the payouts are a joke in Ireland. But ridiculous tactics such as banning 15year old cars will not help the situation (minor short term gain for companies ahead of the curve perhaps), or the insurance industries terrible image problem.

jimgoose

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Someone to pop in and tell Old Diesel he "simply doesn't understand insurance" in 3...2...1...

"I'm an Irish motorist! Quick, someone piss on my back and tell me it's raining champagne!!" :pac::pac::pac:

Special Circumstances

jimgoose wrote: »

"I'm an Irish motorist! Quick, someone piss on my back and tell me it's raining champagne!!" :pac::pac::pac:

But but but - They have data to support this assertion! :pac::rolleyes::mad:

Old diesel

Special Circumstances wrote: »

@ Old Diesel, You've described a very similar scenario to the one that will face herself soon.
Very disappointing, that car has been really well looked after (but not wrapped in cotton wool, they are built to be driven), hence my personal anger at such a lazy and nonsensical interpretation of data.

The MINI is actually a very good example of how flawed this all is - it was one of the early breed of the modern cars that made that BIG leap forward in safety that occurred in the early 00s.

As we know - Euro Ncap testing came out around 1997 - with the Volvo S40 been an early front runner.

Cars that came out brand new from 2000/01 onwards made big leaps forward.

MINI, Ford Mondeo Mk 3, Vectra C, Saab 9 3 Mk 2, Mk 6 Fiesta.

These were all considerable leaps forward vs their predecessors.

Its amazing really - the insurance companies will use this to justify their stance. But yet it also shows how flawed their approach is - when they BAN the 2001 MINI due to age - yet will insure the classic Mini - 1959 design - as a classic under a classic policy.

To be be clear - THERE IS NOTHING wrong with insuring the classic Mini under the classic policy - NOTHING.

The risk assessment is obvious - the cars are enthusiast owned by people who care about them, love them, cherish them - and do small miles in them.

What I want to know is why we can't risk assess the 2001 MINI properly and sensibly.

Especially as we can do it this year at 14 - but its suddenly BEYOND us at 15.

jimgoose

Special Circumstances wrote: »

But but but - They have data to support this assertion! :pac::rolleyes::mad:

What, that piss is champagne? What did I say the other day about shotguns, strong liquor, credit-cards and statistics?? :pac:

dr.fuzzenstein

Valetta wrote: »

Where did you see anyone saying that they do ?

You're just taking the piss now.

Special Circumstances

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

You're just taking the piss now.

It's like dealing with a cult - any argument ("130bhp family saloon = high performance?", "13years old = safe, midnight on 14/15years old = lethal?", "why not extend the blanket punishment of 15 year old roadworthy cars to all cars with 4 wheels, the data supports that as much as anything else" ) that threatens their faith in the church of "we have data" is just deflected or ignored or answered with "you wouldn't understand".

Old diesel

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Someone to pop in and tell Old Diesel he "simply doesn't understand insurance" in 3...2...1.....

Apologists - we know the payouts are a joke in Ireland. But ridiculous tactics such as banning 15year old cars will not help the situation (minor short term gain for companies ahead of the curve perhaps), or the insurance industries terrible image problem.

I don't mind those in the know telling me that I don't understand insurance in fact BRING IT ON .

They are more then welcome to address my MINI example from earlier - if they wish to have an adult conversation about this between company and customer.

Like you tend to have to do in many other industry.

Imagine Scania responding to a haulier customer saying - you just don't understand this whole business of making trucks .

Youd expect them to sit down with the customer haulier and explain things properly .

CJhaughey

This 15 year policy doesn't seem to have extended to the world of commercial vehicles though, buses, van and trucks over 15 seem to be fine unlike private cars which must have a best before date stamped some where on the bulkhead which I can't seem to find on mine....

Special Circumstances

CJhaughey wrote: »

This 15 year policy doesn't seem to have extended to the world of commercial vehicles though, buses, van and trucks over 15 seem to be fine unlike private cars which must have a best before date stamped some where on the bulkhead which I can't seem to find on mine....

Only true believers can see the signs!
Repent, cast aside your well minded 00 and be reborn in the light of Dacia!

jimgoose

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Only true believers can see the signs!
Repent, cast aside your well minded 00 and be reborn in the light of Dacia!

You don't understand! We're all irresponsible boy- (and indeed, girl-) racers with old death-trap sham-cans with worn out Cheng Slime tyres and borderline Fred Flintstone floors. Only the finest Ultan Shirt and Aoife Slacks types, with 1l Volkwagens on 0% Finance (Yay!!), shall be saved.

Wibbs

Old diesel wrote: »

It would be like saying to a 50 year old owner you can't insure a Honda Civic BECAUSE of the claims record of 20 year old Honda Civic drivers.

That's pretty much what they're saying as it is and for a while too. As a near 50 year old with 30 years driving on a full licence, no points etc the hoops I've to jump through to get my Honda Integra insured. I dread to think what it's gonna cost for next year when it'll be an 18 year old car. :mad:

Special Circumstances

Wibbs wrote: »

That's pretty much what they're saying as it is and for a while too. As a near 50 year old with 30 years driving on a full licence, no points etc the hoops I've to jump through to get my Honda Integra insured. I dread to think what it's gonna cost for next year when it'll be an 18 year old car. :mad:

Would it qualify for a classic policy, as annoying as it would be to take a perfectly roadworthy car you enjoy and could use as a daily and relegate it to occasional use?

Galadriel

Wibbs wrote: »

That's pretty much what they're saying as it is and for a while too. As a near 50 year old with 30 years driving on a full licence, no points etc the hoops I've to jump through to get my Honda Integra insured. I dread to think what it's gonna cost for next year when it'll be an 18 year old car. :mad:

I'm still so upset that I have to get rid of my car next month, I could totally accept it if it gave up the ghost but it hasn't, it's running perfectly, I have just paid for a full service and the tax is due in a few days, I honestly don't know what to do, it's hard to make a decision.