Ireland u20 2016 6Nations/Junior World Cup

bilston

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

So 6 Nations at recent meetings discussed the introduction of Georgia and Romania to the 20s competition. What would people feel about that?

Great idea, I hope it happens and is a prelude to them being entered into the 6Ns proper in the next 10 years.

LuckyGent88

What an awful error by Scotland there and glad we took advantage of it.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Not keen on that celebration from Stockdale.

Yeah_Right

The Scottish lad Hastings, any relation to Gavin and Scott?

gazump123

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The Scottish lad Hastings, any relation to Gavin and Scott?

Think the commentator said he was a son of Gavin?

errlloyd

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

So 6 Nations at recent meetings discussed the introduction of Georgia and Romania to the 20s competition. What would people feel about that?

Do you mean the national senior sides or the u20s sides

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The Scottish lad Hastings, any relation to Gavin and Scott?

He's at the Bath Academy apparently. Must be decent.

LuckyGent88

Great stuff there by the forwards. Should take advantage of them being down a man now

the baby bull elephant

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

He's at the Bath Academy apparently. Must be decent.

Oh he's at London Irish is he?...

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

Oh he's at London Irish is he?...

No. He's at Bath?

Made his debut for the senior team there last month.

the baby bull elephant

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

No. He's at Bath?

Made his debut for the senior team there last month.

Not really a great one without context. Bath have a lot of players formerly of LI so there have been jokes about them being the Bath academy, stuff in line with the jokes about Munster having Leinster's second choice backline.

LuckyGent88

God our tackling has been woeful

Korat

Ireland are making hard work of this.

Yeah_Right

Where's the U20 World Cup this year and who is covering it.

gazump123

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Where's the U20 World Cup this year and who is covering it.

On in England I think not sure about coverage. I'd imagine RTE will have the Irish games anyways.

Korat

James Ryan looks a great prospect. Fingers crossed he develops into something special.

funtime93

gazump123 wrote: »

On in England I think not sure about coverage. I'd imagine RTE will have the Irish games anyways.

Tg4 seem to have Ireland's games every year. Sky usually show England and then maybe the knockouts

The Lost Sheep

errlloyd wrote: »

Do you mean the national senior sides or the u20s sides

20s. Why would you think otherwise?

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Where's the U20 World Cup this year and who is covering it.

Its in Manchester. Games in Sales ground and the Man City academy stadium.
Sky will have some coverage and then TG4 here

bilston

funtime93 wrote: »

Tg4 seem to have Ireland's games every year. Sky usually show England and then maybe the knockouts

Sky would have shown all the matches either on a channel or via the red button. Although I'm saying that BT may have had the rights last year?

brokenhooker

Hopefully Johnston is back in time for the JWC, an upgrade at 10 could really change how the team plays.
Kerins is well ahead of Poland now for me too.

Number 137

I wonder is there any chance that Sam Arnold will feature at the JWC?

brokenhooker

Number 137 wrote: »

I wonder is there any chance that Sam Arnold will feature at the JWC?

very unlikely

The Lost Sheep

Number 137 wrote: »

I wonder is there any chance that Sam Arnold will feature at the JWC?

Not if he keeps on getting game time In Pro12. Doubt he will go.

Number 137

I thought not, especially considering he is on a senior contract. I think he is injured again though. Maybe a rest this summer would do him no harm.

brokenhooker

He already has a senior deal, he won't be there.

Number 137

I know he already has a senior deal, that's what my last post said. It's a pity, but an opportunity for others!

jacothelad

brokenhooker wrote: »

He already has a senior deal, he won't be there.

Does that prohibit a player? Plenty of Baby ABs have Super14 or what ever it is.

Tarf1234

jacothelad wrote: »

Does that prohibit a player? Plenty of Baby ABs have Super14 or what ever it is.

Nope, same in SA as well

RedemptionZ

Bit unfair on the guy, mightn't get another chance to represent his country in a world championship.

Digifriendly

bilston wrote: »

Sky would have shown all the matches either on a channel or via the red button. Although I'm saying that BT may have had the rights last year?

BT had rights last year as you say but Sky have them this year. Both TG4 and S4C tend to show Irish/Welsh matches respectively.

The Lost Sheep

jacothelad wrote: »

Does that prohibit a player? Plenty of Baby ABs have Super14 or what ever it is.

It doesn't but likely not be involved if getting enough pro12 game time...

RedemptionZ wrote: »

Bit unfair on the guy, mightn't get another chance to represent his country in a world championship.

They might never but this tournament is in the long term about development and if its thought that the player will benefit from resting in June/Getting more work done with senior pre season and then more potential for game time the following season then should that not happen.

Yeah_Right

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It doesn't but likely not be involved if getting enough pro12 game time...

They might never but this tournament is in the long term about development and if its thought that the player will benefit from resting in June/Getting more work done with senior pre season and then more potential for game time the following season then should that not happen.

I believe that in NZ the u20 World Cup gets presidence over Super Rugby. Could be wrong but from what I remember it does. And I believe it should get priority over Pro 12.

The Lost Sheep

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I believe that in NZ the u20 World Cup gets presidence over Super Rugby. Could be wrong but from what I remember it does. And I believe it should get priority over Pro 12.

Does it? Super Rugby and Southern Hemisphere is different with season being calendar year compared to NH. Priority has been to u20 at times in NZ. Other times I think it has been to Super Rugby.

Yeah_Right

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Does it? Super Rugby and Southern Hemisphere is different with season being calendar year compared to NH. Priority has been to u20 at times in NZ. Other times I think it has been to Super Rugby.

Honestly just going from memory and I can't think of an elligible player who didn't go the U20 RWC so they could play Super Rugby.

RuPi

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Honestly just going from memory and I can't think of an elligible player who didn't go the U20 RWC so they could play Super Rugby.

Damien McKenzie last year stayed with the Chiefs

Number 137

With Arnold out for the next couple of weeks injured, he won't be getting too much gametime with Ulster. The JWC could be used as an opportunity to get him more games before the season ends. Or else perhaps it'd be wiser for him to get a good pre season in with his new team mates in Munster.

The Lost Sheep

Under 20 Club all Ireland starts saturday.
Quarters this weekend with semis and final the following weekends. Any predictions?

Cork Con v Blackrock College
Lansdowne v UCC
UCD v Shannon
Young Munster v Terenure College

brokenhooker

I hope we don't see Arnold, let two two young lads who finished the 6 nations continue on and develop.

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Under 20 Club all Ireland starts saturday.
Quarters this weekend with semis and final the following weekends. Any predictions?

Cork Con v Blackrock College
Lansdowne v UCC
UCD v Shannon
Young Munster v Terenure College

Cork should hammer Rock
Lansdowne to beat UCC
UCD to hammer Shannon
Have heard nothing on YM

Kind of a silly competition at this stage. 4 best in Munster against 2,3,5 & 6 in Leinster. Not exactly a proper all Ireland competition. As it currently stands I see little value in it.

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Cork should hammer Rock
Lansdowne to beat UCC
UCD to hammer Shannon
Have heard nothing on YM

Kind of a silly competition at this stage. 4 best in Munster against 2,3,5 & 6 in Leinster. Not exactly a proper all Ireland competition. As it currently stands I see little value in it.

Why are Trinity, Clontarf not competing?
There should still be an all Ireland even if teams have chosen not to take part for some reason. Does it slightly diminish the competition yes but better to keep it going as if you drop it one year its harder to bring it back the next

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Why are Trinity, Clontarf not competing?
There should still be an all Ireland even if teams have chosen not to take part for some reason. Does it slightly diminish the competition yes but better to keep it going as if you drop it one year its harder to bring it back the next

Neither want to/can compete at the age group. As a competition it is not reflective of the Leinster set up and therefore not representative of the age group nationally. Need to reform or cancel in my opinion.

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Neither want to/can compete at the age group. As a competition it is not reflective of the Leinster set up and therefore not representative of the age group nationally. Need to reform or cancel in my opinion.

Highly doubt they cant compete. More they don't want to.
How do you propose reforming it?
It isn't a direct reflection on the age grade the Leinster competition is played off but what alternative is there?
Munster play off 1st of January and there wont be a change from that. Do you want Leinster league to change if there is to be an all Ireland competition?

Would totally disagree with cancelling the competition.

irishbucsfan

It's never been representative of the age grade in Ireland. It's been that way for a long time (certainly since my day at least).

Doesn't mean it's not a valuable competition for the teams who take part. Rugby at u20 level isn't a spectator sport really, certainly for us it was about development and getting guys up to scratch for senior rugby.

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Highly doubt they cant compete. More they don't want to.
How do you propose reforming it?
It isn't a direct reflection on the age grade the Leinster competition is played off but what alternative is there?
Munster play off 1st of January and there wont be a change from that. Do you want Leinster league to change if there is to be an all Ireland competition?

Would totally disagree with cancelling the competition.

In Tarfs case it is a case of both as not enough FR at the age. Pretty sure it's the same for Trin.

Leinster will not move as it will ruin the competitiveness of the league. Either Munster step up or the problem continues.
Which age group clearly works? - Leinster
Which age group leads to huge struggle getting games? - Munster
Which age should the All Ireland be played? - I'll let you work that one out

I'm not pro cancelling it but as it stands it's a non tournament.

Tarf1234

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's never been representative of the age grade in Ireland. It's been that way for a long time (certainly since my day at least).

Doesn't mean it's not a valuable competition for the teams who take part. Rugby at u20 level isn't a spectator sport really, certainly for us it was about development and getting guys up to scratch for senior rugby.

Pretty sure it only changed to current age grade a few years ago.

I'm not saying anything from a spectator point of view. It is incredibly harsh that many of the guys who work so hard during the year and get the team there are not allowed play. If fairness and rugby development is what we're interested in sure that defies staying at the current age.

The Lost Sheep

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's never been representative of the age grade in Ireland. It's been that way for a long time (certainly since my day at least).

Doesn't mean it's not a valuable competition for the teams who take part. Rugby at u20 level isn't a spectator sport really, certainly for us it was about development and getting guys up to scratch for senior rugby.

Yeah... best 20s players are playing higher grade rugby. And its entirely about development and retention into adult grades.

Tarf1234 wrote: »

In Tarfs case it is a case of both as not enough FR at the age. Pretty sure it's the same for Trin.

Leinster will not move as it will ruin the competitiveness of the league. Either Munster step up or the problem continues.
Which age group clearly works? - Leinster
Which age group leads to huge struggle getting games? - Munster
Which age should the All Ireland be played? - I'll let you work that one out

I'm not pro cancelling it but as it stands it's a non tournament.

But by saying Munster step up ignores all the problems you would have if they did. There is very good reason Leinster have been playing at 20.5 while Munster stayed at 20s. Munster felt retention of players beyond 20s was better if kept at 20s on 1st of January. 21s didn't work in Munster and 20.5s wouldn't either.
Munster changing to 20.5s like Leinster would be even worse for getting games.
Its a compromise between the 2 age groups that are used provincially and it makes sense that the teams that have the older age groups just cut the players off rather than have the teams add players in who haven't played age grade rugby all season

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Pretty sure it only changed to current age grade a few years ago.

I'm not saying anything from a spectator point of view. It is incredibly harsh that many of the guys who work so hard during the year and get the team there are not allowed play. If fairness and rugby development is what we're interested in sure that defies staying at the current age.

I played or coached in most seasons with the changes and its like this(I think)

08/09 was 1st july for 18s and 20s. 09/10 was 1st January 19s and 21s. Same in 10/11 and 11/12 and 12/13 as 09/10.
Munster changed in 13/14 to under 16/18/20 as clubs felt number of teams was dropping off at 18s and 20s with change to 19s/21s. Leinster continued with different age grades from 13/14 on.
It is harsh that some(not many) are not allowed play but they are the rules. Is it not better that there is an all Ireland than none at all?
If you want an all Ireland then changing the age group is needed and the only realistic change would be for leinster league to change back to a straight 20s league and don't have guys with the extra 6 months and then those guys go play adult rugby in the metro leagues.

brokenhooker

it should be 20.5

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It is harsh that some(not many) are not allowed play but they are the rules. Is it not better that there is an all Ireland than none at all?
If you want an all Ireland then changing the age group is needed and the only realistic change would be for leinster league to change back to a straight 20s league and don't have guys with the extra 6 months and then those guys go play adult rugby in the metro leagues.

I think the highlighted is a massive understatement. Only 2 teams at the top of Leinster have teams which are largely at that age. We, for example, would have lost 3 props, 2 hookers, 2 second rows, 2 back rows, a scrum half, Outhalf and a winger at the very least. That is hardly 'not many'. It would have been at least one third of the starting team.

The argument about players cutting is the exact mirror to adding players in the whole as an argument as it ends up with one side having a non core team playing.

Surely adding players is fairer on the players then cutting players?? Cutting players is surely far less inclusive.

I'm not sure what will happen next year but one thing is for sure going to 20's (1 Jan) in Leinster is incredibly unlikely. It would ruin the league and is not what any of the senior Leinster clubs want.

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I think the highlighted is a massive understatement. Only 2 teams at the top of Leinster have teams which are largely at that age. We, for example, would have lost 3 props, 2 hookers, 2 second rows, 2 back rows, a scrum half, Outhalf and a winger at the very least. That is hardly 'not many'. It would have been at least one third of the starting team.

The argument about players cutting is the exact mirror to adding players in the whole as an argument as it ends up with one side having a non core team playing.

Surely adding players is fairer on the players then cutting players?? Cutting players is surely far less inclusive.

I'm not sure what will happen next year but one thing is for sure going to 20's (1 Jan) in Leinster is incredibly unlikely. It would ruin the league and is not what any of the senior Leinster clubs want.

But any other option for an all Ireland isn't feasible. Expecting Munster sides to add players just isn't feasible. If you are to have an all Ireland with each province having different age groups then you go with the younger age group and have sides with the older age group drop players. Makes sense from player welfare POV much more.
I don't see how changing to 20s would ruin the league. How would league be ruined?
It would/should help with progression rates into adult rugby if done correctly by clubs...

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But any other option for an all Ireland isn't feasible. Expecting Munster sides to add players just isn't feasible. If you are to have an all Ireland with each province having different age groups then you go with the younger age group and have sides with the older age group drop players. Makes sense from player welfare POV much more.
I don't see how changing to 20s would ruin the league. How would league be ruined?
It would/should help with progression rates into adult rugby if done correctly by clubs...

But reducing the size of other teams to the extent they cannot compete/fill a team is feasible????? Just have a logical think about that before you respond. - One way has been proven to work in the past one way this year has proven not to work with 3 teams pulling out of the All Ireland.

Surely, adding is a lot easier to do then gutting a team.

So we want them to play adult rugby but are afraid of them playing guys who are up to are an additional 6 months older???? That makes zero sense at all. Pick one point or the other.

Leinster league would be ruined as no team could compete with Lansdowne or UCD bar maybe trinity. Some teams struggle to have a squad of 23-25 players for the whole year. Removing anything from 3 - 10 players would disband those teams.