Ireland u20 2016 6Nations/Junior World Cup

bilston

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Is Under 18. Is very good. Saw him against Both Munster and Connacht. Depends on what he concentrates on. Has played minor football with Meath and AFL sides have been looking at him

What position?

hype101

bilston wrote: »

What position?

Fullback and he's the tallest guy on the team. I'd say he's at least 6'4 already. Pace too apparently.

bayern1900

RobbieRuns wrote: »

Can't see anyone breaking the dominance of Leinster schools at that age level. The schools in Leinster are the benchmark at U18 age grade.

Lenster has been pretty weak the past two years, especially last year.

where Munster won the interpros and this year Leinster sneaked it barely.

Leinster underage rugby is regressing tbh bar the club game which is improving.

bayern1900

hype101 wrote: »

Fullback and he's the tallest guy on the team. I'd say he's at least 6'4 already. Pace too apparently.

nearer to 6'6 than 6'4. unreal athlete.

Tox56

bayern1900 wrote: »

Lenster has been pretty weak the past two years, especially last year.

where Munster won the interpros and this year Leinster sneaked it barely.

Leinster underage rugby is regressing tbh bar the club game which is improving.

To say Leinster underage rugby is regressing is a pretty huge statement to make, the level might not be as high as a few years ago but we were spoiled for choice those years, the u20s of last year were one of the best groups Leinster has ever had, you can't get that every year

bayern1900

Tox56 wrote: »

To say Leinster underage rugby is regressing is a pretty huge statement to make, the level might not be as high as a few years ago but we were spoiled for choice those years, the u20s of last year were one of the best groups Leinster has ever had, you can't get that every year

well its gone backwards as you said yourself.
Munster are interpro champions at u20 and u19 level. beating leinster comfortably.

leinster u18 schools have been much weaker the past two seasons than when compared to previous years. losing it to Munster last season and barely scraping it this year.

This year's u20 team won their u18 interpros quite easily but have regressed since then.

system still producing forwards but very few standout backs at u20/u19 level.

u18 club rugby still pretty strong but the schools cup last year was a poor competition that lacked in quality. All about the team with the biggest pack winning.

Clongowes/Michaels have regressed, Belvo aren't producing underage players, Blackrock dominant in dublin. Roscrea is a feeder school for connacht/Munster.

System has regressed for now, it could be cylical but it's a cause for concern.

Next year's u20 team will be dominated by clubs players which will be great to see but it is also reflective of the drop in schools rugby.

It wouldn't surprise me if leinster had no 1st choice backs for ireland u20 this year.

given the playing number advantage and the investment at schools rugby leinster should probably be dominant at underage level. The past two seasons that hasn't been the case, clear signal that the underage system has regressed.

specttator

interesting post. Sure to get debate started.

The Lost Sheep

specttator wrote: »

interesting post. Sure to get debate started.

It hasn't regressed but that poster has since been banned for being a re-reg.... That topic better discussed elsewhere....

Leinster u20s league round 2 this weekend in divisions 1/2 while division 3 starts this weekend. Only 1 game in Munster division 1 this weekend....

gest1

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It hasn't regressed but that poster has since been banned for being a re-reg.... That topic better discussed elsewhere....

why are you against discussing the points made?

Think he made a clear case of how the underage teams for leinster have regressed recently.

apart from your blanket statement saying they haven't and then dismissing the topic.

FrannoFan

I'm not sure leinster has regressed. perhaps the schools game has slightly but that is down to an improving club scene where players no longer feel they have to go to a "big 6" school to get noticed. They can stay in the club game and still play Leinster. (look at this years U19 way more club players than in the past.)

Also munster couldn't stay so poor forever. They had been losing on a regular basis to Connacht, Leinster and ulster. had to improve.

gest1

FrannoFan wrote: »

I'm not sure leinster has regressed. perhaps the schools game has slightly but that is down to an improving club scene where players no longer feel they have to go to a "big 6" school to get noticed. They can stay in the club game and still play Leinster. (look at this years U19 way more club players than in the past.)

Also munster couldn't stay so poor forever. They had been losing on a regular basis to Connacht, Leinster and ulster. had to improve.

the schools game has clearly and it has nothing to do with club players, the quality of player playing u18 schools has dipped quite a bit over the past two seasons. And it wasn't munster/ulster improving, just look at the poor performance by Ireland schools last year.

your point doesn't address the dip at u20 level, that team was dominant at u18 and 19 level but it hasn't translated to top quality prospects for the academy in the backs.

Munster have improved but Leinster have clearly gotten worse at the same time.

With the disbanding of the schools/club teams into an A and B side it will be interesting to see how many Leinster players are in the top 50 or so players at u18 level according to selectors.

Tarf1234

Interesting points, I think part of the problem is the cushioning of players at U20s. They spend so much time training with Leinster and Ireland and miss a lot of game time at a time when they really need it.

In Leinster anyone in the academy or sub academy will miss at the very least 2-3 games a year due to Leinster holding them back, with some missing a lot more. I think a better distribution of players amongst clubs would hugely help as well. Over the last 5 years Leinster under 20s club rugby has been dominated by 2/3 teams each year. A better distribution of the players amongst the clubs would see a better quality of competition. As I see it UCD/Lansdowne play at least 6 redundant games a year where no1 benefits. Terenure over the last 2 years were the same. Improving the quality of the domestic competition can only help the inter pro team in their every so important 3 game season....

The Lost Sheep

gest1 wrote: »

the schools game has clearly and it has nothing to do with club players, the quality of player playing u18 schools has dipped quite a bit over the past two seasons. And it wasn't munster/ulster improving, just look at the poor performance by Ireland schools last year.

your point doesn't address the dip at u20 level, that team was dominant at u18 and 19 level but it hasn't translated to top quality prospects for the academy in the backs.

Munster have improved but Leinster have clearly gotten worse at the same time.

With the disbanding of the schools/club teams into an A and B side it will be interesting to see how many Leinster players are in the top 50 or so players at u18 level according to selectors.

The schools game does have a connection to club players. I don't think quality of guys playing schools has dipped so much

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Interesting points, I think part of the problem is the cushioning of players at U20s. They spend so much time training with Leinster and Ireland and miss a lot of game time at a time when they really need it.

In Leinster anyone in the academy or sub academy will miss at the very least 2-3 games a year due to Leinster holding them back, with some missing a lot more. I think a better distribution of players amongst clubs would hugely help as well. Over the last 5 years Leinster under 20s club rugby has been dominated by 2/3 teams each year. A better distribution of the players amongst the clubs would see a better quality of competition. As I see it UCD/Lansdowne play at least 6 redundant games a year where no1 benefits. Terenure over the last 2 years were the same. Improving the quality of the domestic competition can only help the inter pro team in their every so important 3 game season....

Most miss a lot more. Just look at the posts on LF/MF and the number of players listed in academy threads who are listed as "inactive"(such a stupid phrase by a poster for players who simply are not playing rugby)
The distribution of players does need to be better. They are all in the big division 1 clubs or university clubs. Would players be better off in division 2 senior clubs playing senior rugby while eligible for under 20 rugby and then moving to division 1 clubs if they prove good enough.

Tarf1234

I think the under 20s club season as structured probably gives the best format, not all (most) would be good enough for senior rugby (UBL) straight away. In reality, very few break straight through to AIL as main stays in year 1 and where as plenty do it in year 2 out of school. I think a year at under 20s club wise is a good idea.

Just need to improve the competitiveness of the league. In saying that, this years competition looks like it will be a lot more open than previous years and this appears to be reflected in a greater spread of players who played rep or were involved with the squads at the very least.

KJY

Dual status Question: going to college in Dublin and want to play a small bit for an under 20's team here while mainly playing senior rugby with a Munster club.

My club seem to think dual status across provinces is very difficult/impossible.

Just wondering if anyone has tried or knows someone who's done this?

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I think the under 20s club season as structured probably gives the best format, not all (most) would be good enough for senior rugby (UBL) straight away. In reality, very few break straight through to AIL as main stays in year 1 and where as plenty do it in year 2 out of school. I think a year at under 20s club wise is a good idea.

Just need to improve the competitiveness of the league. In saying that, this years competition looks like it will be a lot more open than previous years and this appears to be reflected in a greater spread of players who played rep or were involved with the squads at the very least.

Varies a lot on where club is as to breaking into AIL and age they do it.

KJY wrote: »

Dual status Question: going to college in Dublin and want to play a small bit for an under 20's team here while mainly playing senior rugby with a Munster club.

My club seem to think dual status across provinces is very difficult/impossible.

Just wondering if anyone has tried or knows someone who's done this?

Does the club you play with in Munster field at 20s level? If no then you could go on loan. Dual status across provinces isn't impossible/very difficult. Has your club contacted the Munster branch and asked the competition organiser?

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Varies a lot on where club is as to breaking into AIL and age they do it.

Does the club you play with in Munster field at 20s level? If no then you could go on loan. Dual status across provinces isn't impossible/very difficult. Has your club contacted the Munster branch and asked the competition organiser?

Very true, but most of the higher end 20s guys are in 1A in Leinster with a few in 1B. I'd imagine same in Munster while Ulster and Connacht may be different.

Was speaking with a few Con guys last week about Munster under 20s comp and they were saying it is awful. Very few games and very little competitiveness with Con finding it very tough to get a worth while game in.

The difference in age grades between the Leinster and Munster comp is ridiculous at this stage. I can't understand why Munster don't do the extra 6 months. Allows for a much better competition in my opinion as plenty take a year to get to the standard.

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Very true, but most of the higher end 20s guys are in 1A in Leinster with a few in 1B. I'd imagine same in Munster while Ulster and Connacht may be different.

Was speaking with a few Con guys last week about Munster under 20s comp and they were saying it is awful. Very few games and very little competitiveness with Con finding it very tough to get a worth while game in.

The difference in age grades between the Leinster and Munster comp is ridiculous at this stage. I can't understand why Munster don't do the extra 6 months. Allows for a much better competition in my opinion as plenty take a year to get to the standard.

Leinster can run the extra 6 months at 20s as there is the player depth to do it. It wont be done in Munster as clubs are struggling enough to get guys out at adult grade and by having more players playing age grade and then not so much at 20s means overall the clubs lose out.
It doesn't really take plenty a year to get to the standard......

KJY

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Varies a lot on where club is as to breaking into AIL and age they do it.

Does the club you play with in Munster field at 20s level? If no then you could go on loan. Dual status across provinces isn't impossible/very difficult. Has your club contacted the Munster branch and asked the competition organiser?

No they haven't got onto them yet and my clubs not fielding. Thank you, shall look into it

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Leinster can run the extra 6 months at 20s as there is the player depth to do it. It wont be done in Munster as clubs are struggling enough to get guys out at adult grade and by having more players playing age grade and then not so much at 20s means overall the clubs lose out.
It doesn't really take plenty a year to get to the standard......

Have always understood that as a philosophy but really don't agree with it. They said the same when it went from 21s to 20.5s and from what I have seen that has made no difference. How many guys do you actually see playing J1/2/3/4 at the age of 20? From experience only a few clubs in the metro leagues would have that (UCD, Trinity and OB out of the senior clubs).

From my years of involvement 20s I would say plenty of players are way of the higher level of players in the first year and it is a great developing year for them. Outside of the big 2 Leinster 20s teams a 'second year team' is usually the only team to challenge them, I think this is proof of the point. Obviously, I'd imagine it is not as prominent a point in Munster due to the above point. Terenure last year, Tarf 4 years ago both second year teams who dominated the league that year.

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Have always understood that as a philosophy but really don't agree with it. They said the same when it went from 21s to 20.5s and from what I have seen that has made no difference. How many guys do you actually see playing J1/2/3/4 at the age of 20? From experience only a few clubs in the metro leagues would have that (UCD, Trinity and OB out of the senior clubs).

From my years of involvement 20s I would say plenty of players are way of the higher level of players in the first year and it is a great developing year for them. Outside of the big 2 Leinster 20s teams a 'second year team' is usually the only team to challenge them, I think this is proof of the point. Obviously, I'd imagine it is not as prominent a point in Munster due to the above point. Terenure last year, Tarf 4 years ago both second year teams who dominated the league that year.

From my involvement in the sport you regularly see guys playing social rugby at 20. If their club has a lot of 20s and theyre not getting rugby and don't quit they play in the metro leagues
Changing from 21s has made a considerable difference from what ive seen of rugby at this level

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

From my involvement in the sport you regularly see guys playing social rugby at 20. If their club has a lot of 20s and theyre not getting rugby and don't quit they play in the metro leagues
Changing from 21s has made a considerable difference from what ive seen of rugby at this level

I was excluding guys who don't play U20s at all as I don't see how they are relevant to the age grade discussion. If they are not playing 20s surely they don't come into a discussion on U20s??

melpat54

Hagz wrote: »

Happy to see Kyle Dixon involved. Very impressive in the LSSC.

Also, I think that's meant to be Matthew Bursey in the Backrow.

Hate to rain on anyone's,parade but the 3rd hooker was James Brennan who played in the last of the interprovincial matches against Ulster as replacement hooker. Hutchinson was dropped at the final cut of the u20 training camp

rugbylover87

Bollard and Whittle have seriously impressed with trinity this season , saw their games against Landsowne and Bucaneers and both seemed to carry the pack and back line respectively , would either be in with a shot based on these performances ?

Tarf1234

I saw Bollard against us at 20s and was not impressed at all, weak on his outside shoulder and bind. Personally (and I'll admit a slight bias) I'd go with Abdaladze over him. He did a massive job on the UCD scrum last week. I do think Whittle is good. I'd certainly think worth a shot.

rugbylover87

Are you sure it was Bollard at loose that day ? I watched him in the interpros and he dominated each time , especially against a good Munster scrum . Hugely underestimated future prospect in my opinion

Tarf1234

He was indeed, Abdaladze was at tighthead for tarf. It was the only time I have seen him and maybe he just had an off day but he looked very uncomfortable in the tight. Dropped his bind on numerous occasions and struggled to stay straight.

melpat54

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I saw Bollard against us at 20s and was not impressed at all, weak on his outside shoulder and bind. Personally (and I'll admit a slight bias) I'd go with Abdaladze over him. He did a massive job on the UCD scrum last week. I do think Whittle is good. I'd certainly think worth a shot.

Have to agree about abaladze another player in contention for no3 position is Adam Coyle

hype101

Does anyone know what's going on with Conor Nash?.. There's a picture of him training with the Aussie International Rules team so presumably he's being looked at.. Would be a real shame to lose him.. Talk of him being the most promising underage back in the country.

RuPi

hype101 wrote: »

Does anyone know what's going on with Conor Nash?.. There's a picture of him training with the Aussie International Rules team so presumably he's being looked at.. Would be a real shame to lose him.. Talk of him being the most promising underage back in the country.

Still Under 18's so should probably be in the Youth thread but he was over in Australia For a trial during the summer, I think it was with Hawthorn Hawks. Presume he will have a number of offers following his leaving cert.

chrstoper

Heard Arnold/Stockdale won't play in 6 nations, O'Donnell might not either)

1. Andrew Porter(Leinster)
2. Adam McBurney(Ulster)
3. Conan O'Donnell(Connacht)
4. James Ryan(Leinster)
5. Peter Claffey(Connacht)
6. Greg Jones(Leinster)
7. Will Connors(Leinster)
8. Max Deegan(Leinster)
9. John Poland(Munster)
10. Bill Johnston(Munster)
11. Hugo Keenan(Leinster)
12. Paul Kiernan(Munster)
13. Conor O'Brien(Leinster)
14. Matthew Byrne(Leinster
15. Jack Power(Leinster)
16. Hugo Kean(Leinster)
17. Vakh Albadaze(Leinster)
18. Conor Kenny(Connacht)
19. Sean O'Connor(Munster)
20. Daniel Walsh(Munster)
21. Nick Peters(Leinster)
22. David O'Mahony(Munster)
23. Rob Lyttle(Ulster)

ArmchairQB

Saw Lansdowne 20s in 2 games this season and their front row were excellent big lads powerful in the scrum and well able to play, don't know their names but I would say some or all of them would be involved not sure if they are in list above

wp_rathead

Anyword on Dan Trayers? Is he involved in any rugby set up?

chrstoper

wp_rathead wrote: »

Anyword on Dan Trayers? Is he involved in any rugby set up?

as far as i know, no.

chrstoper

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Saw Lansdowne 20s in 2 games this season and their front row were excellent big lads powerful in the scrum and well able to play, don't know their names but I would say some or all of them would be involved not sure if they are in list above

depends who you saw but they have 3 leinster u19 front rows: Greg McGrath(LH/TH), Tadgh McElroy(Hkr) and Martin Mulhall(TH)

have a few other front rows but none that would push for ireland honours IMO and i'd be surprised if any of those played irleand u20 this year.

who'd you see them play?

Tarf1234

Does anybody have a list of the squad or where it could be found for this weeks camp?

ArmchairQB

chrstoper wrote: »

depends who you saw but they have 3 leinster u19 front rows: Greg McGrath(LH/TH), Tadgh McElroy(Hkr) and Martin Mulhall(TH)

have a few other front rows but none that would push for ireland honours IMO and i'd be surprised if any of those played irleand u20 this year.

who'd you see them play?

Saw them against Terenure & UCD they were dominant in both but Porter not playing club 20s this year would have ben a help certainly ones to watch thanks for the names. The tighthead is a beast for under 19

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Does anybody have a list of the squad or where it could be found for this weeks camp?

No official list will be published for this weeks camp. First time anywhere official about squad for under 20s in 2016 will be the games they'll play at the end of the month

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

No official list will be published for this weeks camp. First time anywhere official about squad for under 20s in 2016 will be the games they'll play at the end of the month

Thought as much was hoping someone had an unpublished one

MunsterMike

melpat54 wrote: »

Have to agree about abaladze another player in contention for no3 position is Adam Coyle

have to agree melpat54 saw Coyle playing against Thomond in limerick with naas1xv last weekend he is a standout TH was very surprised that he was only 19

Tarf1234

MunsterMike wrote: »

have to agree melpat54 saw Coyle playing against Thomond in limerick with naas1xv last weekend he is a standout TH was very surprised that he was only 19

haven't seen any of Coyle. I hear he is predominantly a scrummaging prop, not overly productive around the park. Is that true? from what I've been told he's the best scrummaging TH at 20s

chrstoper

Tarf1234 wrote: »

haven't seen any of Coyle. I hear he is predominantly a scrummaging prop, not overly productive around the park. Is that true? from what I've been told he's the best scrummaging TH at 20s

Conan O'Donnell is clearly the best scrummaging TH at 20s.

MunsterMike

Tarf1234 wrote: »

haven't seen any of Coyle. I hear he is predominantly a scrummaging prop, not overly productive around the park. Is that true? from what I've been told he's the best scrummaging TH at 20s

have seen him against munster in interpros and again in thomand and have to say he did stand out against munster for his scrummaging but have to disagree was also good when he had the ball in hand and made a lot of ground and good handoffs, like I said im surprised he is only 19 ill be watching with interest

Tarf1234

chrstoper wrote: »

Conan O'Donnell is clearly the best scrummaging TH at 20s.

Sorry head was in Leinster mode. I'd imagine your correct

chrstoper

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Sorry head was in Leinster mode. I'd imagine your correct

it will be interesting to see if Coyle makes the irish squad, he was behind three other TH's last year for Ireland u19.

Tarf1234

chrstoper wrote: »

it will be interesting to see if Coyle makes the irish squad, he was behind three other TH's last year for Ireland u19.

Could be a very interesting squad. Potentially the first squad in a few years not dominated by Leinster (Lansdowne and UCD) players. Can only be a good thing.

chrstoper

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Could be a very interesting squad. Potentially the first squad in a few years not dominated by Leinster (Lansdowne and UCD) players. Can only be a good thing.

considering the last two squads were more successful than previous ones i'm not sure how bad a thing it was.

there will be more munster players than last year though.

don't expect much from this years 20s based on interpros.

Tarf1234

chrstoper wrote: »

considering the last two squads were more successful than previous ones i'm not sure how bad a thing it was.

there will be more munster players than last year though.

don't expect much from this years 20s based on interpros.

Just think it is a good sign that Munster, Ulster and Connacht are producing more players again is a great think for Irish rugby. 20s shouldn't be seen as and end in my eyes and more a point of development. That is why I think it is a bad think to have any province over dominate in the squad.

Also good for Leinster club rugby to have more clubs represented.

chrstoper

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Just think it is a good sign that Munster, Ulster and Connacht are producing more players again is a great think for Irish rugby. 20s shouldn't be seen as and end in my eyes and more a point of development. That is why I think it is a bad think to have any province over dominate in the squad.

Also good for Leinster club rugby to have more clubs represented.

this years 20's will be weaker than last years and probably the year before.

munster have a better group, but leinster are a good bit weaker and connacht/ulster have a handful of decent players.

less talent in this years team is a bad thing, even if the team isn't dominated by one province.

as about other clubs in leinster, there might be 1 player from clontarf and a player from terenure. Most of the leinster lads will be UCD/Lansdowne.

Tarf1234

chrstoper wrote: »

this years 20's will be weaker than last years and probably the year before.

munster have a better group, but leinster are a good bit weaker and connacht/ulster have a handful of decent players.

less talent in this years team is a bad thing, even if the team isn't dominated by one province.

as about other clubs in leinster, there might be 1 player from clontarf and a player from terenure. Most of the leinster lads will be UCD/Lansdowne.

Are Whittle and Osbourne not in the mix? Or Coyne?