Ireland u20 2016 6Nations/Junior World Cup

sfbdqc

Number 137 wrote: »

I attended the Welsh game. Didn't see the French game, but certainly in the Welsh game, basic errors crucified Ireland. If they could cut down on these errors, is it possible there are the makings of a good team here?

this team won't do much.. but some of the players in it, should develop into good players.

FrannoFan

sfbdqc wrote: »

Ciaran Frawley or Conor Dean, both of who are still in school.

Haven't been blown away by Dean so far. has an armchair ride most of his rugby career in blackrock. Looked under pressure against Belvo when put up to him. lovely skill set but bit early to call him for 20's.


The obvious flaw this year is the coaching. Ruddock sent out sides with a good set piece and a clear game plan. Carolan hides behind the "Heads up rugby" expression which just leads to lack of clarity at this age grade.

mogwai81

Any exciting wingers this year?

sfbdqc

FrannoFan wrote: »

Haven't been blown away by Dean so far. has an armchair ride most of his rugby career in blackrock. Looked under pressure against Belvo when put up to him. lovely skill set but bit early to call him for 20's.


The obvious flaw this year is the coaching. Ruddock sent out sides with a good set piece and a clear game plan. Carolan hides behind the "Heads up rugby" expression which just leads to lack of clarity at this age grade.

Ross Byrne got an armchair ride most of his schools career too, Dean is highly rated and likely the Ireland u18 outhalf this season.

Anyway next year's OH will probably be Bill Johnston unless he injured or being used by Munster.

In a Leinster u20 context it will either be Ciaran Frawley or Conor Dean playing as a u19. Wouldn't be surprised if one played 10 and the other played 12.

sfbdqc

mogwai81 wrote: »

Any exciting wingers this year?

hard to say.. Stockdale with Ulster probably has the biggest reputation..

So far none have impressed me, but their opportunities have been limited.

ClanofLams

FrannoFan wrote: »

The obvious flaw this year is the coaching. Ruddock sent out sides with a good set piece and a clear game plan. Carolan hides behind the "Heads up rugby" expression which just leads to lack of clarity at this age grade.

To be fair to Carolan his Connacht teams generally play the same way, they don't often get great results but certainly the production of players to senior ranks has increased dramatically under his stewardship.

I guess it depends on what people want to prioritise, results or player development.

sfbdqc

ClanofLams wrote: »

To be fair to Carolan his Connacht teams generally play the same way, they don't often get great results but certainly the production of players to senior ranks has increased dramatically under his stewardship.

I guess it depends on what people want to prioritise, results or player development.

should be able to develop players and get reasonable results.

Two pretty poor results so far.

ClanofLams

sfbdqc wrote: »

should be able to develop players and get reasonable results.

Two pretty poor results so far.

I agree but just saying the IRFU must have known how his teams set up and how unlikely it was to be effective at this level. They still appointed him which tends to suggest they don't really care about results and only want to see player development.

sfbdqc

ClanofLams wrote: »

I agree but just saying the IRFU must have known how his teams set up and how unlikely it was to be effective at this level. They still appointed him which tends to suggest they don't really care about results and only want to see player development.

u20's are apoorly coached team, that cna be hidden behind the mantra of "player development" or "heads up rugby" but doesn't change that fact

ClanofLams

sfbdqc wrote: »

u20's are apoorly coached team, that cna be hidden behind the mantra of "player development" or "heads up rugby" but doesn't change that fact

Well whatever he's doing at Connacht is clearly working. Buckley, Dillane, Masterson, McKeon, Connolly, O'Brien all recent academy graduates or current academy players and that's only the forwards off the top of my head. You can call it a mantra but connacht supporters call it a huge success.

its_phil

sfbdqc wrote: »

u20's are apoorly coached team, that cna be hidden behind the mantra of "player development" or "heads up rugby" but doesn't change that fact

Why are they a poorly coached team in your opinion?

I think the way they play and Carolan encouraging heads up rugby at that age is the right way to do it. Very much encourages the players to make their own decisions talking to former players.

sfbdqc

its_phil wrote: »

Why are they a poorly coached team in your opinion?

I think the way they play and Carolan encouraging heads up rugby at that age is the right way to do it. Very much encourages the players to make their own decisions talking to former players.

failure to execute the basics, making simple mistake, conceding so many points.. they've lost 5 games in a row, are you going to claim they are well coached?

Blackclaret

ClanofLams wrote: »

To be fair to Carolan his Connacht teams generally play the same way, they don't often get great results but certainly the production of players to senior ranks has increased dramatically under his stewardship.

I guess it depends on what people want to prioritise, results or player development.

This is the crux of the issue, are these oppurtunities to develop players or win titles. Would hope the former, I have enjoyed all the games so far with this foremost in my mind.

RobbieRuns

Nigel is a clever coach, he is especially clever at empowering the players, constantly talking about letting them hold the team meetings and driving the decisions. Debatable that he should be controlling those aspects himself.

RedemptionZ

sfbdqc wrote: »

should be able to develop players and get reasonable results.

Two pretty poor results so far.

Development is primary objective. All of England's success at U20s has amounted to so much success at senior level :rolleyes: ...

I think you need some perspective. You complained about no outhalves being produced this year and said every year there should be an outhalf that is talented to the degree that they will go pro. That's just not feasible. There will be years that are better than others.

If there are more stars produced by Carolan than in previous years then as far as I'm concerned he's doing a good job. We all want to see the team bag results but if in seven years there's two or three of these lads on a RWC team we won't be talking about how they didn't beat Wales or France in the U20s 6N.

Utopia Parkway

sfbdqc wrote: »

u20's are apoorly coached team, that cna be hidden behind the mantra of "player development" or "heads up rugby" but doesn't change that fact

Maybe the players just aren't there? I mean last year's U-20's were powder puff up front. They just got demolished by the bigger packs. Not sure having Joe Schmidt in charge of them would have made much of a difference to the results.

Some talented individuals in both last year's and this year's crop but not enough in the one team.

The Lost Sheep

sfbdqc wrote: »

u20's are a poorly coached team, that cna be hidden behind the mantra of "player development" or "heads up rugby" but doesn't change that fact

Theyre not poorly coached. Think you're being very unfair to Carolan.

sfbdqc wrote: »

failure to execute the basics, making simple mistake, conceding so many points.. they've lost 5 games in a row, are you going to claim they are well coached?

5 games in a row with 2 very very different teams... the players making simple mistakes cant all be put on the coaches. Perhaps the players are not as good as you think they are.

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

Maybe the players just aren't there? I mean last year's U-20's were powder puff up front. They just got demolished by the bigger packs. Not sure having Joe Schmidt in charge of them would have made much of a difference to the results.

Some talented individuals in both last year's and this year's crop but not enough in the one team.

Wouldn't say they were powder puff. That's being very unfair. When sides like English etc are pro earlier it means we generally wont have packs to compete but ...
Interesting to see in Australia that a Super Under 20s Championship was launched, with teams from their five super rugby franchises competing and Matches will be scheduled as curtain-raisers to Super Rugby games

sfbdqc

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Theyre not poorly coached. Think you're being very unfair to Carolan.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

5 games in a row with 2 very very different teams... the players making simple mistakes cant all be put on the coaches. Perhaps the players are not as good as you think they are.

What can you see on the field that indicates they are a well coached team?

Because the results certainly don't indicate that they are, this age group lost to england in the FIRA final two years ago.. now look how Carolan has them performing.

ArmchairQB

Carolan coaches differently than most and I am not a fan of how he goes about his business, the most successful coaches take control of game plans and work with structures, players in general prefer that and as it evolves players get more input but Carolan is very big on off field prep thru endless videos etc etc. His success in Connacht is misleading, It is easy to recruit talented individuals who due to number restrictions don't get into Leinster & elsewhere and improve them by being exposed daily to a professional set up, it would be harder not to improve them. Sport is about opinions and I share the opinion that he is not good enough at this level and would be surprised if he was still in place next season.

The Lost Sheep

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Carolan coaches differently than most and I am not a fan of how he goes about his business, the most successful coaches take control of game plans and work with structures, players in general prefer that and as it evolves players get more input but Carolan is very big on off field prep thru endless videos etc etc. His success in Connacht is misleading, It is easy to recruit talented individuals who due to number restrictions don't get into Leinster & elsewhere and improve them by being exposed daily to a professional set up, it would be harder not to improve them. Sport is about opinions and I share the opinion that he is not good enough at this level and would be surprised if he was still in place next season.

Its all about philosophy. Carolan has a clear philosophy based around the players being responsible for what they do on the pitch. To say his success in the Connacht set up is misleading is complete horse....
He wants to create players and develop them and not simply create a system to fit players into. I know which I prefer in the long term ......

sfbdqc

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Its all about philosophy. Carolan has a clear philosophy based around the players being responsible for what they do on the pitch. To say his success in the Connacht set up is misleading is complete horse....
He wants to create players and develop them and not simply create a system to fit players into. I know which I prefer in the long term ......

soo you prefer losing?

players can learn and develop playing withing a system..

carolan's system seems to be to make it up as you go in attack and god only knows in defense.

Number 137

Regardless how the Six Nations pans out, I'd hope that with a little more time together before the JWC, we will see those basic errors disappear. If Bill Johnston could get fit, and if Jacob Stockdale and Sam Arnold are available, suddenly the back line looks far more capable as well.

sfbdqc

Number 137 wrote: »

Regardless how the Six Nations pans out, I'd hope that with a little more time together before the JWC, we will see those basic errors disappear. If Bill Johnston could get fit, and if Jacob Stockdale and Sam Arnold are available, suddenly the back line looks far more capable as well.

they've had a lot of time together.. it's just excuses for poor coaching.

we will be lucky to win one game, Carolan already making excuses about physically being behind despite all the noise he was making pre 6 nations.

Number 137

I'm not making any excuses on Carolan's behalf, I'm merely making the point that those players should improve things, especially Arnold and Stockdale, who have the experience of last season to draw upon.

sfbdqc

Number 137 wrote: »

I'm not making any excuses on Carolan's behalf, I'm merely making the point that those players should improve things, especially Arnold and Stockdale, who have the experience of last season to draw upon.

no doubt they will improve things but doesn't change the fact that the team is being limited by Carolan and his "methods"

I don't think any of these lads will look back on these losses as formative moments in their careers.

Number 137

sfbdqc wrote: »

no doubt they will improve things but doesn't change the fact that the team is being limited by Carolan and his "methods"

I don't think any of these lads will look back on these losses as formative moments in their careers.

Out of curiosity, what sort of game plan or structure do you think best suits this current crop?

sfbdqc

Number 137 wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what sort of game plan or structure do you think best suits this current crop?

Playing with a system similar to Mike Ruddock employed.

The Lost Sheep

sfbdqc wrote: »

soo you prefer losing?

players can learn and develop playing withing a system..

carolan's system seems to be to make it up as you go in attack and god only knows in defense.

Winning/Losing doesn't totally matter. What matters is development. If this set up helps develop players more/better than why is it an issue.
This set up allows players be more involved, use "heads up" rugby. Why is that an issue?

Number 137

Is there anything to be said for the small number of academy players involved in the squad in comparison to recent years being a factor? And I'm open to correction on that point.

sfbdqc

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Winning/Losing doesn't totally matter. What matters is development. If this set up helps develop players more/better than why is it an issue.
This set up allows players be more involved, use "heads up" rugby. Why is that an issue?

because it's of little value if it results in losses, playing rugby is about winning and competing.. not losing every game you play because you play "heads up rugby"

RobbieRuns

I would refrain from commenting on Carolans coaching ability, but I do think that he will still be the incumbent this time next year. Success or failure, it will remain the same.

The Lost Sheep

Number 137 wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for the small number of academy players involved in the squad in comparison to recent years being a factor? And I'm open to correction on that point.

Is there much of a difference in the number of players who are full academy members this year compared to previous years?

sfbdqc wrote: »

because it's of little value if it results in losses, playing rugby is about winning and competing.. not losing every game you play because you play "heads up rugby"

It isn't if it helps produce better all round players and his success in Connacht shows that his approach is successful.
Again the success of these sides is not how many games are won or lost.

sfbdqc

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Again the success of these sides is not how many games are won or lost.

tell that to the players.

"it doesn't matter if you lose all your games, it will make you better rugby players"

The Lost Sheep

sfbdqc wrote: »

tell that to the players.

"it doesn't matter if you lose all your games, it will make you better rugby players"

Look at the long term not the short term. The amount of games these sides win and lose is irrelevant as player development is the most important thing.

ArmchairQB

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Look at the long term not the short term. The amount of games these sides win and lose is irrelevant as player development is the most important thing.

Nonsense to think you will develop just as many players from a loosing set up to a winning set up.

sfbdqc

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Look at the long term not the short term. The amount of games these sides win and lose is irrelevant as player development is the most important thing.

results are unimportant, what is important? ensuring players make mistakes so that they can learn from them? what if they don't learn?

RobbieRuns

Any side would want to develop within a winning culture and it would be incorrect to say otherwise.

typhoony

sfbdqc wrote: »

results are unimportant, what is important? ensuring players make mistakes so that they can learn from them? what if they don't learn?

you can see the fruits of the England under20's success with players coming through to senior level. they've tasted success and believe in themselves. The objective surely is for our U20's teams to compete succesfully. Average players don't miraculously develop into senior international, that just can't be coached.

Ireland needs talent and success at U20's level for the good of the senior game.

Player development takes the focus away from Team success

The Lost Sheep

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Nonsense to think you will develop just as many players from a loosing set up to a winning set up.

How is it nonsense? These tournaments at age grade level are primarily about development. Thinking/focusing on results is just nonsense since the focus is on helping developing players for the provinces and then senior national team.

sfbdqc wrote: »

results are unimportant, what is important? ensuring players make mistakes so that they can learn from them? what if they don't learn?

Results are not as important as what players learn. This level is a stepping stone. If players don't learn then there is issues but results are not the driving force at this level.

ArmchairQB

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

How is it nonsense? These tournaments at age grade level are primarily about development. Thinking/focusing on results is just nonsense since the focus is on helping developing players for the provinces and then senior national team.
Results are not as important as what players learn. This level is a stepping stone. If players don't learn then there is issues but results are not the driving force at this level.

Utter nonsense there is and has to be a mix in any setup, to simply say that results are not important is rubbish! Players and especially young players thrive on positive results, teams improve with positive results, good players can suffer and development stifled in a team that is not producing positive results. Poor result usually mean poor team performances, which neither help nor improve anybody. Coaches need to adapt and learn just as players need to, Carolan has not changed a loosing formula and as a full time professional coach employed by the IRFU he should be of a better standard. Plenty of coaches out there with their level 4 certs but to many not able to coach to level 4 standards.

The Lost Sheep

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Utter nonsense there is and has to be a mix in any setup, to simply say that results are not important is rubbish! Players and especially young players thrive on positive results, teams improve with positive results, good players can suffer and development stifled in a team that is not producing positive results. Poor result usually mean poor team performances, which neither help nor improve anybody. Coaches need to adapt and learn just as players need to, Carolan has not changed a losing formula and as a full time professional coach employed by the IRFU he should be of a better standard. Plenty of coaches out there with their level 4 certs but to many not able to coach to level 4 standards.

Results shouldn't be the total focus with these sides. Why should results be so important when the most important thing is development of players for the provinces/national side/the sport in the long term.

sfbdqc

Why play games were the result is not important?
Seems like a nice job for a coach to have.. i'm sure if lads fail to develop after u20 level he can blame academies and provincial coaches.

The Lost Sheep

sfbdqc wrote: »

Why play games were the result is not important?
Seems like a nice job for a coach to have.. i'm sure if lads fail to develop after u20 level he can blame academies and provincial coaches.

That is so short term. The result isn't the primary focus. It is secondary to what those playing develop and how they develop while playing in the age grade.

Tarf1234

I think clearly a mix of both is what you want. Winning is a habit and consistently losing is not going to help anyone's confidence or ability. However, developing players skills is also very important. Winning as robots should not be what U20s is about.

sfbdqc

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

That is so short term. The result isn't the primary focus. It is secondary to what those playing develop and how they develop while playing in the age grade.

what's carolan responsible for?
not results apparently..
long term player development?
not sure how he can be measured against that when player development at the end of the day will come down to the academy and provincial coaches.

The Lost Sheep

sfbdqc wrote: »

what's carolan responsible for?
not results apparently..
long term player development?
not sure how he can be measured against that when player development at the end of the day will come down to the academy and provincial coaches.

And he is one of those academy/provincial coaches. 20s is a stepping stone. Results do not drive how many players go on to play a higher standard of rugby when theyre older.
If the results were so important and winning at this level was so important players eligible for the grade wouldn't be kept back by provinces to play pro12 etc or rest in June as PJ was a few years ago. Results are not the primary aim

sfbdqc

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

And he is one of those academy/provincial coaches. 20s is a stepping stone. Results do not drive how many players go on to play a higher standard of rugby when theyre older.
If the results were so important and winning at this level was so important players eligible for the grade wouldn't be kept back by provinces to play pro12 etc or rest in June as PJ was a few years ago. Results are not the primary aim

how is his responsibility for the Connacht academy anything to do with being Ireland u20 coach?

What is he responsible for as u20 Ireland coach? getting players into the academy? winning? long term player development? how is he evaluated?

The Lost Sheep

sfbdqc wrote: »

how is his responsibility for the Connacht academy anything to do with being Ireland u20 coach?

What is he responsible for as u20 Ireland coach? getting players into the academy? winning? long term player development? how is he evaluated?

His responsibility for academy is everything to do with being irish 20s coach. Long term development of players is the key. Focusing on results is very short term. He is evaluated by whatever or not he reaches the goals that are listed in IRFU strategic plans etc.
What do you think he should be evaluated by?

sfbdqc

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

His responsibility for academy is everything to do with being irish 20s coach. Long term development of players is the key. Focusing on results is very short term. He is evaluated by whatever or not he reaches the goals that are listed in IRFU strategic plans etc.
What do you think he should be evaluated by?

there is how many connacht players playing Ireland u20? 5?

what about all the lads from leinster, munster and ulster? what is his responsibility with them as coach of Ireland u20?

He should be evaluated by winning games as u20 coach, not something that can't be measured i.e long term player development of players he only coaches for a season maybe 2.

RobbieRuns

I always refer to our successful U19 squad many years ago that had won the IRB World Cup as it was (1998). They produced a fair few internationals that developed into top class players, they were used to winning and kept that culture with them throughout their careers.......