Ireland RWC Backline

molloyjh

smiley_face wrote: »

That's very harsh, he's a good determined player, he is strong and quick and more importantly he always gives 100% commitment.
Who is more suitable in your opinion?
Conway perhaps? Or Earls?

You could say all those things about Ferg too. And as much and all as I rate the guy I don't see him travelling. There are simply too many others with more to their game to make room for someone like that.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He's actually played very little fullback for us, even off the bench. He's been in the squad when the likes of Earls/Fitzgerald/Trimble/Bowe have been out injured. But Earls and Fitzgerald cover full back as well as center which he does not. Payne can play center and full back as can Henshaw. I'd say all those guys are currently better players in their positions than he is. If those guys stay fit you'd have to imagine the odds are stacked against him. If he starts at 15 in a warmup and plays well then he has a chance perhaps.

Not really sure I agree with this. Personally I wouldn't have Jones in the squad but the fact he made every 6N squad even when Earls was back fit, when Fitz was fit, suggests to me that Schmidt wants him around for whatever reason. I think he's likely to travel.

irishbucsfan

Victor Nervous Protein wrote: »

Not really sure I agree with this. Personally I wouldn't have Jones in the squad but the fact he made every 6N squad even when Earls was back fit, when Fitz was fit, suggests to me that Schmidt wants him around for whatever reason. I think he's likely to travel.

Yeah but these guys are fit for the entire preperations this time.

The squad limit means that if he travels then one of those guys needs to stay behind. If it is 6 back-3 guys in total then do you really think they'll leave one of those guys behind? I'm thinking it's unlikely, like a 30% chance.

alias no.9

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He's actually played very little fullback for us, even off the bench. He's been in the squad when the likes of Earls/Fitzgerald/Trimble/Bowe have been out injured. But Earls and Fitzgerald cover full back as well as center which he does not. Payne can play center and full back as can Henshaw. I'd say all those guys are currently better players in their positions than he is. If those guys stay fit you'd have to imagine the odds are stacked against him. If he starts at 15 in a warmup and plays well then he has a chance perhaps.

How many back three players will we bring? We only brought 5 in 2011, this year you could see maybe one more with Earls/Fitzgerald being options in midfield. Bowe and Kearney are certainties, then you would expect all of Earls, Fitzgerald, Zebo and Trimble to travel. Suddenly things start to look difficult for Jones unless there are injuries.

Fitz at fullback for Ireland has been tried and failed horribly, let's not go back there. There are too many other options to even consider it again.

total former

Victor Nervous Protein wrote: »

Not really sure I agree with this. Personally I wouldn't have Jones in the squad but the fact he made every 6N squad even when Earls was back fit, when Fitz was fit, suggests to me that Schmidt wants him around for whatever reason. I think he's likely to travel.

I don't know. Joe loves continuity in his squad, this season and last we saw minimal changes throughout the 6N. That's why I think Zebo being dropped for the last game was very significant. I think Jones benefitted massively from this desire for continuity but that's unlikely to carry over into the RWC.

If Joe had actually shown any inclination to put Jones on the field during the 6N, then it might be different.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Jones left out, because Earls and Trimble are better players.

Quint2010

People seem to be forgetting that Fitzgerald is made of glass and will get injured in the warm ups...

total former

Quint2010 wrote: »

People seem to be forgetting that Fitzgerald, Jones, Earls is made of glass and will get injured in the warm ups...

FYP.

It's a good point though. For nearly all of Joe's reign, he's had serious back three injuries

irishbucsfan

total former wrote: »

FYP.

It's a good point though. For nearly all of Joe's reign, he's had serious back three injuries

Rob Kearney used to be made of glass as well. Some players do emerge from that shadow as they mature thankfully.

KeithWoodshead

This board has been moving from Zebo debate to Zebo debate for three years nearly. Tiresome in the extreme

KeithWoodshead

KeithWoodshead wrote: »

This board has been moving from Zebo debate to Zebo debate for three years nearly. Tiresome in the extreme

Honestly, I think if he can get his weight under control he still has a shot at the squad.



:pac:

MattD

14 backs in a squad, here's my attempt at putting them in order of likeliness to go:

Sexton
Murray
Henshaw
Kearney
Payne
Bowe
Jackson
Madigan
Reddan
Fitzgerald
Boss
Jones
Trimble
Earls

Zebo
D'Arcy
Cave
Marmion

total former

KeithWoodshead wrote: »

This board has been moving from Zebo debate to Zebo debate for three years nearly. Tiresome in the extreme

I agree, but left wing is the only spot in the starting XV that is remotely up for grabs, hence the discussion.

Espbraids

KeithWoodshead wrote: »

This board has been moving from Zebo debate to Zebo debate for three years nearly. Tiresome in the extreme

This thread is about the Irish RWC backline mate it's not about Zebo

Wang King

total former wrote: »

I agree, but left wing is the only spot in the starting XV that is remotely up for grabs, hence the discussion.

I have a feeling right wing isn't nailed down

Wang King

Wang King wrote: »

I have a feeling right wing isn't nailed down

Bowe?

If I owned a house I'd put it on him to start. I can't see any conceivable situation where he doesn't make the team.

Wang King

Victor Nervous Protein wrote: »

Bowe?

If I owned a house I'd put it on him to start. I can't see any conceivable situation where he doesn't make the team.

I'm just trying to remember Joe's substituons, think he took Bowe off and put Felix in his place during the 6n, may have been due to tiredness or due to the fact Jones is a superb tackler and maybe Joe felt that was needed at times.
Earls at 14 isn't too far fetched at all. The AI's are going to be interesting

Wang King

Wang King wrote: »

I'm just trying to remember Joe's substituons, think he took Bowe off and put Felix in his place during the 6n, may have been due to tiredness or due to the fact Jones is a superb tackler and maybe Joe felt that was needed at times.
Earls at 14 isn't too far fetched at all. The AI's are going to be interesting

Warmups you mean? They're going to have very little to do with who starts against France and Italy.

Wang King

Victor Nervous Protein wrote: »

Warmups you mean? They're going to have very little to do with who starts against France and Italy.

Really? I'd have thought those games would give a huge indicator as to who is in n with a shout, and who's not

Wang King

Wang King wrote: »

Really? I'd have thought those games would give a huge indicator as to who is in n with a shout, and who's not

What I mean is if for example Earls plays really well in one of the warmup games it's not going to outweigh the fact Bowe has just won a 6N.

You said it yourself earlier in the thread.

Wang King wrote: »

People seem to be mistaking their opinions for Joe's

irishbucsfan

Wang King wrote: »

I'm just trying to remember Joe's substituons, think he took Bowe off and put Felix in his place during the 6n, may have been due to tiredness or due to the fact Jones is a superb tackler and maybe Joe felt that was needed at times.
Earls at 14 isn't too far fetched at all. The AI's are going to be interesting

I think if anyone is going to come in at 14 it'll be Trimble, he's played there under Joe in the past.

But I don't think it's remotely likely whatsoever. Bowe is a sure thing. The left wing is where all the interest is. That's probably the only thing we're going to be able to learn next month, maybe also the Tuohy/Ryan thing I suppose.

Wang King

Victor Nervous Protein wrote: »

What I mean is if for example Earls plays really well in one of the warmup games it's not going to outweigh the fact Bowe has just won a 6N.

You said it yourself earlier in the thread.

Yes, and I was pointing out that Jones is Joe's go-to sub

Wang King

Wang King wrote: »

Yes, and I was pointing out that Jones is Joe's go-to sub

Eh, ok?

Now you seem to think that Bowe mightn't start. This is your opinion, it's not going to be Schmidt's.

Wang King

Victor Nervous Protein wrote: »

Eh, ok?

Now you seem to think that Bowe mightn't start. This is your opinion, it's not going to be Schmidt's.

Ah, can you tell us who is going to start since you know Joe so well
:rolleyes:

Wang King

Wang King wrote: »

Ah, can you tell us who is going to start since you know Joe so well
:rolleyes:

Yep, best mates so we are.

Or I can just look at his selection patterns over the course of coaching for 5 seasons now in Ireland.

Earls hasn't played for Ireland for over two years now. He has never played for Ireland under Schmidt. We know Schmidt likes continuity in his team selections. We know he's loyal to players who do the job for him. I'm sure you'd like to see Earls in the team but with all that in mind and considering we're going into the biggest tournament Schmidt has ever coached at, that chances of it happening are tiny.

phog

Victor Nervous Protein wrote: »

What I mean is if for example Earls plays really well in one of the warmup games it's not going to outweigh the fact Bowe has just won a 6N.

You said it yourself earlier in the thread.

Zebo won a 6Ns too and it seems that a few posters think he won't travel.

Wang King

Victor Nervous Protein wrote: »

Yep, best mates so we are.

Or I can just look at his selection patterns over the course of coaching for 5 seasons now in Ireland.

Earls hasn't played for Ireland for over two years now. He has never played for Ireland under Schmidt. We know Schmidt likes continuity in his team selections. We know he's loyal to players who do the job for him. I'm sure you'd like to see Earls in the team but with all that in mind and considering we're going into the biggest tournament Schmidt has ever coached at, that chances of it happening are tiny.

Haven't said Earls should start? Please try again

Wang King

Wang King wrote: »

Haven't said Earls should start? Please try again

Wang King wrote: »

Earls at 14 isn't too far fetched at all.

I'm trying to have a discussion about rugby but if you're just going to engage in pedantry then there's not much point I suppose.

twinytwo

smiley_face wrote: »

Zebo's favourite position is fullback, and he was a great Gaelic footballer when he was younger, can kick accurately and has a big left boot on him.
He is versatile enough to cover two positions at least anyway, and I also believe he could play at 13 if a solid tackling and crash-balling 12 was selected with him. He could be similar to Fickou for France or J Joseph for England.
Whatever about that contentious supposition, he should be tried out at fullback for one of the warm-up matches, as should Jones.
We know what Kearney offers, but to see if there's any better option it should be tested at least.
Zebo and Fitz are both good, either would do a good job, also a 2014 Trimble would give Joe Schmidt a serious headache for selections, which would be great obviously.
Would also like to see Henshaw and Payne swap positions for one match to see if it worked better.

Are you insane?

That might work against some the smaller teams.... any centre worth his salt would make absolute ****e of Zebo at 13.

Id be very surpised (assuming everyone else is fit) if zebo goes to the WC.

Wang King

twinytwo wrote: »

Are you insane?

That might work against some the smaller teams.... any centre worth his salt would make absolute ****e of Zebo at 13.

Id be very surpised (assuming everyone else is fit) if zebo goes to the WC.

Prepare to be surprised

Wang King

Victor Nervous Protein wrote: »

I'm trying to have a discussion about rugby but if you're just going to engage in pedantry then there's not much point I suppose.

Says the guy who knows Joe's mind

smiley_face

twinytwo wrote: »

Are you insane?

That might work against some the smaller teams.... any centre worth his salt would make absolute ****e of Zebo at 13.

Id be very surpised (assuming everyone else is fit) if zebo goes to the WC.

Merely a response about how he wouldn't travel due to lack of versatility.
Tried to point out he could cover two positions, and would like to see him tried at 13, could be the right guy when resting Payne against the weaker nations. It all counts towards selection.
I don't think I'm insane.

jm08

smiley_face wrote: »

Merely a response about how he wouldn't travel due to lack of versatility.
Tried to point out he could cover two positions, and would like to see him tried at 13, could be the right guy when resting Payne against the weaker nations. It all counts towards selection.
I don't think I'm insane.

Ah, but Joe likes his left wingers to have a left boot and his right wingers to have a right boot. He said something during the 6Ns about not wanting to put Luke on the right wing because of his left boot as he didn't want to end up with possibly his 3 outside backs being leftsided players (Zebo, Kearney & Luke).

He has said the reason he likes Felix (apart from being right footed) is that he is very calm when he comes off the bench and is a big game player. He is a top class defender as well - if you like Felix is the equivalent of Girvan Dempsey and Kearney is a Geordan Murphy kind of player.

The Lost Sheep

smiley_face wrote: »

Merely a response about how he wouldn't travel due to lack of versatility.
Tried to point out he could cover two positions, and would like to see him tried at 13, could be the right guy when resting Payne against the weaker nations. It all counts towards selection.
I don't think I'm insane.

Zebo covers wing/full back. There is more chance of me being called up for a game than Zebo being tried at 13. If Payne isn't at 13 for the warm ups there is guys like Earls/Henshaw/Cave who will be there

molloyjh

Wang King wrote: »

Yes, and I was pointing out that Jones is Joe's go-to sub

Joe seems to like having him in the squad but doesn't seem to like having him on the pitch. The only time he was an unforced sub was against Italy from what I remember and we had the game won at that point. The Jones thing baffles me tbh for that reason as well as the fact that, solid and all as he is, he's just not at the required level.

smiley_face

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Zebo covers wing/full back. There is more chance of me being called up for a game than Zebo being tried at 13. If Payne isn't at 13 for the warm ups there is guys like Earls/Henshaw/Cave who will be there

Here's a question, what should the back-line be for the Romania match?
I would rest the majority of the backs, definitely Sexton, Murray, Henshaw, Payne and Bowe.

irishbucsfan

smiley_face wrote: »

Here's a question, what should the back-line be for the Romania match?
I would rest the majority of the backs, definitely Sexton, Murray, Henshaw, Payne and Bowe.

Joe wants momentum. He rarely ever makes unforced changes.

bilston

smiley_face wrote: »

Here's a question, what should the back-line be for the Romania match?
I would rest the majority of the backs, definitely Sexton, Murray, Henshaw, Payne and Bowe.

Not sure if it's Canada or Romania first but my view is strongest XV for the final warm up game, same again for the first game, lots of changes for second match and then obviously full strength against Italy with hopefully some scope to make early changes and then hell for leather with the strongest XV against France.

As for the other warm up games I'd expect two completely different XVs for the first Welsh game and the Scottish match where gaining match fitness will be the main focus and then maybe a mix and match side for warm up number three followed, as I've already said, with the first XV in the last match.

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Joe wants momentum. He rarely ever makes unforced changes.

He hasn't coached at a World Cup before where you play intense games every week for hopefully seven weeks. That may change his thinking a bit.

irishbucsfan

bilston wrote: »

Not sure if it's Canada or Romania first but my view is strongest XV for the final warm up game, same again for the first game, lots of changes for second match and then obviously full strength against Italy with hopefully some scope to make early changes and then hell for leather with the strongest XV against France.

As for the other warm up games I'd expect two completely different XVs for the first Welsh game and the Scottish match where gaining match fitness will be the main focus and then maybe a mix and match side for warm up number three followed, as I've already said, with the first XV in the last match.

It's Canada, Romania, Italy, France. Cardiff, London, London, Cardiff.

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's Canada, Romania, Italy, France. Cardiff, London, London, Cardiff.

The fixtures couldn't have fallen any better for us.

jm08

bilston wrote: »

He hasn't coached at a World Cup before where you play intense games every week for hopefully seven weeks. That may change his thinking a bit.

The groups of Canada, Romania, Italy, France is easier than a 6Ns though (particularly when the game against the French is not in Paris.

Past the groups is where it gets difficult.

sydthebeat

Id imagine as close to full strength as possible starting v canada, get game over early and ring the changes early.

That finishing team mostly starting v Romania, with squad outliers benching.

Full strength as possible again v italy and same rotation from there.

.ak

I'm hoping Payne steps it up a notch. Whilst he's done no wrong he's still the weak link in our back line actually opening up sides. We miss the maestro so much in that regards, and whilst it's nice having a back line full of 15st flankerish backs we haven't looked like moving the ball in a way that'll turn sides inside out? Is it beyond us? Absolutely not. Joe is one of the best back coaches in the business, the stuff Leinster were pulling off in their pomp wasn't flukes, his playbook is exciting, but you need 100% accuracy, confidence and commitment to pull it off.

I'm hoping with a good 6n under his belt that Payne will look to create a bit more and the playbook will be used a bit more liberally.

AbusesToilets

I can't see the logic in taking Jones ahead of Earls, Fitz, Zebo, Trimble, Reid or Gilroy. They are all better players than him and are more capable of covering multiple positions off of the bench.

I hope that Joe a gives some countenance to mixing up the back line. Payne at FB and one of Fitz or Earls in the centre with Henshaw would be a worthwhile experiment.

Wang King

Regardless of what people think about Jones, the fact is, he's the best actual physical defender we have in the back 3 positions. That's why he is in the squad.

AbusesToilets

That's nonsense, what are you using to justify that? I'd say Fitz is probably the hardest tackler out of that lot, not to mention Bowe and trimble would be more powerful than him in the tackle.

Wang King

Reality

irishbucsfan

I'd have Fitzgerald as the best defender of that bunch as well. Never makes a mistake and has made some huge hits over the years (the one on Howlett always stands out). He's also got great technique at the breakdown.

I'm a big fan of Jones though. I remember how good he was coming out of Seapoint and in the early Leinster days, I'm hoping that potential didn't just disappear and Joe's persistence with him is based on some chance that he might turn into the player he looked like he was becoming at the 2009 Churchill Cup, before the injuries.

Wang King

Jones tackles better than anyone in the back 3, to even suggest Fitz even comes close is laughable, good luck with the love in

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'd have Fitzgerald as the best defender of that bunch as well. Never makes a mistake and has made some huge hits over the years (the one on Howlett always stands out). He's also got great technique at the breakdown.

I'm a big fan of Jones though. I remember how good he was coming out of Seapoint and in the early Leinster days, I'm hoping that potential didn't just disappear and Joe's persistence with him is based on some chance that he might turn into the player he looked like he was becoming at the 2009 Churchill Cup, before the injuries.

Didn't Fitz injure himself with that hit?