Ireland RWC Backline

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That doesn't tell you anything about the quality of the tackles. A guy could be employed as a shooter in defense and be more likely to miss tackles. A guy could be chasing kicks all day and miss a couple of tackles on overcooked balls etc. That statistics are not granular enough.

Its still a stat. It compares like with like. If you see someone missed 5 or 6 tackles, the quality of the missed tackle is irrelevant.

What you also know is that if the fullback misses a tackle, it is more than likely try time.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Its still a stat. It compares like with like. If you see someone missed 5 or 6 tackles, the quality of the missed tackle is irrelevant.

What you also know is that if the fullback misses a tackle, it is more than likely try time.

So if Conor Murray kicks a contestable into the opposition half and Rob Kearney chases it, but it's slightly overcooked and the receiver manages to sidestep the tackle... it's try time?

You can't use statistics like that I'm afraid.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So if Conor Murray kicks a contestable into the opposition half and Rob Kearney chases it, but it's slightly overcooked and the receiver manages to sidestep the tackle... it's try time?

You can't use statistics like that I'm afraid.

Conor Murray is superb at kicking contestable balls and rarely overcooks them As well as that, it would be usually a winger who would contest for them. Kearney kicks and chases his own.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Conor Murray is superb at kicking contestable balls and rarely overcooks them As well as that, it would be usually a winger who would contest for them. Kearney kicks and chases his own.

Yes he is one of the best in the business, but you've missed the point.

molloyjh

What the hell is going on here!? Have you been drinking again Wang!? You've gotten fairly objectionable over very little. Is Jones a better defender? I'm not sure that's a conversation we could even have. The two play entirely different positions and are required to do different things in a defensive pattern. Fitz at 13 this season was outstanding defensively, both in technique and positionally. So while there may be merit in saying Jones is a better defender it strikes me as wildly outlandish to suggest Fitz isn't even close. He is very close, and just as much as there may be a case that Jones is a better defender there is also a case for saying Fitz is the better of the two. After all he has excelled defensively on the wing and at 13, the hardest position to defend in the game.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes he is one of the best in the business, but you've missed the point.

I think you missed my point:

What you also know is that if the fullback misses a tackle, it is more than likely try time.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

I think you missed my point:

Your point quite frankly is nonsense.

thomond2006

I think it's hard not to be a Felix Jones fan. He was a crock for more or less 3 seasons and looked to be a lost cause. He's now gone over 2 seasons injury free and while he's lost a bit of pace he is an absolute rock of a player. If you want a sub to close out a game and to not miss a crucial tackle then Jones is your man. However Ireland has so many talented backs at its disposal I wouldn't have Jones on the plane ahead of someone like Earls, Trimble, Fitzgerald etc.

.ak

Victor Nervous Protein wrote: »

I know you're not having a dig at him but I don't think this post is very fair. We didn't play very creatively in the 6N, nobody did really, so I'm not sure singling out Payne is entirely right. Henshaw had a very strong, all-action tournament but I don't think bringing Payne into the game was something he did especially well. I was really impressed by Payne overall, I'm not going to go looking for the stats (so hopefully you'll take my word for it) but he made a deceptive amount of ground in the tournament with ball in hand and he controlled his channel in defence so well. Tbh if we're looking to dish out "blame" for lack of a better word, it should be pointed at the coaching team. We've two halfbacks who kick the ball incredibly well so we went with it.

Ah, it may sound unfair, but the reason I'm singling him out is he never felt comfortable enough to use his distribution. A lot of our attack stifled at him running onto 2nd phase ball and straight into contact. Atleast Henshaw we saw a good bit of tidy distribution from him, as well as all the bish-bosh stuff.

Ofcourse the coaches aren't going to try and get them to force a game, you play to your strengths, as you say our strength was having two tactical kickers at halfback, but what I'm saying is hopefully Payne's grows more comfortable in his role so we can look at using strengths across the backline.

Teams will deal with our kicking now.

phog

Victor Nervous Protein wrote: »

Your point quite frankly is nonsense.

If the point is

What you also know is that if the fullback misses a tackle, it is more than likely try time.

Then that is certainly not nonsense. Fullback is generally our last line of defence, he misses a tackle you pray for a miracle or some show boating to go wrong.

shuffol

jm08 wrote: »

Its still a stat. It compares like with like. If you see someone missed 5 or 6 tackles, the quality of the missed tackle is irrelevant.

Henshaw missed 16 tackles in the 6N, did he have a poor championship defensively?

phog wrote: »

Then that is certainly not nonsense. Fullback is generally our last line of defence, he misses a tackle you pray for a miracle or some show boating to go wrong.

Dead right

lucky_luke

.ak wrote: »

Ah, it may sound unfair, but the reason I'm singling him out is he never felt comfortable enough to use his distribution. A lot of our attack stifled at him running onto 2nd phase ball and straight into contact. Atleast Henshaw we saw a good bit of tidy distribution from him, as well as all the bish-bosh stuff.

Ofcourse the coaches aren't going to try and get them to force a game, you play to your strengths, as you say our strength was having two tactical kickers at halfback, but what I'm saying is hopefully Payne's grows more comfortable in his role so we can look at using strengths across the backline.

Teams will deal with our kicking now.

I can't say I remember Henshaw doing all too much distribution. To me both centres were similar in terms of attacking footwork and offloading.

It makes sense to me to keep the centre partnership as is since the two of them have a bit of experience together. Most of the other options have played relatively little in the centre at test level.

jm08

shuffol wrote: »

Henshaw missed 16 tackles in the 6N, did he have a poor championship defensively?

When you take into account the number of tackles he made (63), no he didn't have a poor chamionship defensively.

It however highlights why you need your fullback to be making their tackles if for some reason they are not made elsewhere.


For the record, Payne was excellent defensively 42/4 in the 6Ns.

Moving on from tackle gate, the one concern I have if Trimble comes back into the back three is that we could end up in a second half situation where Best, Henderson, Henry, Payne, Jackson and Trimble are all on the pitch at the one time and with that many Ulstermen we're going to ship a red card or two.


#bants

.ak

lucky_luke wrote: »

I can't say I remember Henshaw doing all too much distribution. To me both centres were similar in terms of attacking footwork and offloading.

It makes sense to me to keep the centre partnership as is since the two of them have a bit of experience together. Most of the other options have played relatively little in the centre at test level.

Oh yeh, totally, I'm not suggesting breaking up the partnership at all btw.

bilston

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Moving on from tackle gate, the one concern I have if Trimble comes back into the back three is that we could end up in a second half situation where Best, Henderson, Henry, Payne, Jackson and Trimble are all on the pitch at the one time and with that many Ulstermen we're going to ship a red card or two.


#bants

As long as they aren't wearing white they'll be grand. Things are easier to spot when a player is wearing white you see.

wp_rathead

Here's hoping Joe gives Robbie a run at 13 in one of the RWC Build Up Tests

CatFromHue

If Henshaw goes to 13 who goes to 12

D'arcy? Cave?

Quint2010

CatFromHue wrote: »

If Henshaw goes to 13 who goes to 12

D'arcy? Cave?

Madigan....(runs......)

Hagz

Payne...

Scythica

Zebo

AbusesToilets

Fitz or Reid would be a good shout, has Earls ever had a run at 12?

CatFromHue

The 12 spot is the weakest in the squad as there's only one out and out option 12, D'arcy, or trying to convert someone to a 12, which is what we've done with Henshaw.

Considering how close it is to the RWC I can't see us trying to convert someone new to being a 12..

Noel Reid continues to bemuse me. I've never seen anything to think he was an international. Joe sees something I don't.

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

Noel Reid continues to bemuse me. I've never seen anything to think he was an international. Joe sees something I don't.

He's not going to the world cup so it's irrelevant but I would have agreed two years ago. His problem was always a physicality issue but he really bulked up and he is a lovely distributor. I would have preferred him to Madigan at 12 last season without the injury anyway.

AbusesToilets

Yea, Reid has been playing very well of late.

It's kind of mad that we have something of a paucity in experienced 12s at the moment, given it is a position where there are a lot of talented players with bucketloads of potential. Marshall, Olding (is a 13 primarily?) Fitz, McCloskey, Reid. All are players who would offer real options there, yet there just hasn't been the time to get a proper look at most of them.

Neil3030

bilston wrote: »

As long as they aren't wearing white they'll be grand. Things are easier to spot when a player is wearing white you see.

The opposite also holds true:

.ak

Deleted User wrote: »

Noel Reid continues to bemuse me. I've never seen anything to think he was an international. Joe sees something I don't.

Ah I don't think anyone really does. I think potentially he could be, but right now he's just a very, very intelligent centre, with the ability to distribute and slow things down and work well with the ball, he's also insanely good at slipping the first tackle and support play.

I think the reason he's in the camp is just for experience, I'd be very surprised he'd get any caps.

total former

.ak wrote: »

Ah I don't think anyone really does. I think potentially he could be, but right now he's just a very, very intelligent centre, with the ability to distribute and slow things down and work well with the ball, he's also insanely good at slipping the first tackle and support play.

I think the reason he's in the camp is just for experience, I'd be very surprised he'd get any caps.

I don't think anyone is there for experience. Reid won't be in the first choice 31 but Joe must see some scenario whereby he becomes useful. An injury to Jackson or Madigan and Reid comes into the frame.

.ak

total former wrote: »

I don't think anyone is there for experience. Reid won't be in the first choice 31 but Joe must see some scenario whereby he becomes useful. An injury to Jackson or Madigan and Reid comes into the frame.

But he can't get into that frame without gaining valuable experience from being in the camp, knowing the calls, etc., etc.

I think you just re-iterated my point!

wp_rathead

I'd like to see Robbie 13 and D'Arcy 12 in one of the warm up games
If something happens Payne that will probably be the centre pairing
More realistically though will also probably be D'Arcy last game

total former

.ak wrote: »

But he can't get into that frame without gaining valuable experience from being in the camp, knowing the calls, etc., etc.

I think you just re-iterated my point!

Unwittingly so. I thought you meant experience for the future.

Reid is in the same boat as Herring, TOD, Marmion etc - needs a big slice of luck but could well be on the plane.

CatFromHue

If I were Reid I wouldn't want to go to the RWC. He'd be better off getting gametime in the Pro12 than holding tackle bags in the RWC.

He's 25 now and coming into a make or break season if you ask me. He needs to get a good chunk of games this season.

.ak

CatFromHue wrote: »

If I were Reid I wouldn't want to go to the RWC. He'd be better off getting gametime in the Pro12 than holding tackle bags in the RWC.

He's 25 now and coming into a make or break season if you ask me. He needs to get a good chunk of games this season.

If D'arcy retires after the RWC there's a good chance Reid will be first choice for the rest of the season.

bilston

CatFromHue wrote: »

If I were Reid I wouldn't want to go to the RWC. He'd be better off getting gametime in the Pro12 than holding tackle bags in the RWC.

He's 25 now and coming into a make or break season if you ask me. He needs to get a good chunk of games this season.

There are two ways of looking at it. He may never get another chance to mae a RWC. That is a huge honour whether you play or not. But then again what you say makes perfect sense too. He's a player that will be fascinating to watch next season. 12 is an open position for Ireland. Sure Olding and McCloskey are options but McCloskey still has a lot to prove and just playing rugby again is all Olding can worry about right now.

smiley_face

.ak wrote: »

But he can't get into that frame without gaining valuable experience from being in the camp, knowing the calls, etc., etc.

I think you just re-iterated my point!

I think Reid is the backup only for Madigan. He is a 12 primarily, and could be cover at 10 in an emergency.
10 will be Sexton, with Jackson as backup.
I reckon if either Sexton or Jackson gets an injury, Keatley will be called up as backup 10. He played well against Italy, and despite his poor performances since then, I think he is the next best available after Sexton and Jackson.
Could argue that JJ Hanrahan is also a good option (can also play 12 or 15), but his lack of game-time at 10 is a weakness in his candidacy.
Ian Humphreys is the next best option perhaps after Keatley.
I could be wrong, perhaps Madigan is the replacement 10 if either Sexton or Jackson gets injured, and Reid would come in to play the role that Madigan currently fills.

CatFromHue

.ak wrote: »

If D'arcy retires after the RWC there's a good chance Reid will be first choice for the rest of the season.

He still has to make the jersey his own and he can't do that sitting in the stands at the RWC.

molloyjh

smiley_face wrote: »

I think Reid is the backup only for Madigan. He is a 12 primarily, and could be cover at 10 in an emergency.
10 will be Sexton, with Jackson as backup.
I reckon if either Sexton or Jackson gets an injury, Keatley will be called up as backup 10. He played well against Italy, and despite his poor performances since then, I think he is the next best available after Sexton and Jackson.
Could argue that JJ Hanrahan is also a good option (can also play 12 or 15), but his lack of game-time at 10 is a weakness in his candidacy.
Ian Humphreys is the next best option perhaps after Keatley.
I could be wrong, perhaps Madigan is the replacement 10 if either Sexton or Jackson gets injured, and Reid would come in to play the role that Madigan currently fills.

If both Sexton and Jackson are injured then I agree re Keats. If JS gets injured then it should be PJ starting and IM on the bench. Which is exactly the same as we saw in the 6Ns. Mads wasn't trusted to start ahead of Keats but he was trusted on the bench ahead of him.

.ak

CatFromHue wrote: »

He still has to make the jersey his own and he can't do that sitting in the stands at the RWC.

Ah, I don't think he'll have any hassle unless they persist with Madigan at 12... and I don't see that happening, I reckon Madigan will be playing all his Leinster games at 10 or 22.

.ak

If Sexton and Jackson get injured then the Rugby Gods hate us, probably for the Kidney Clock.

total former

smiley_face wrote: »

I think Reid is the backup only for Madigan. He is a 12 primarily, and could be cover at 10 in an emergency.
10 will be Sexton, with Jackson as backup.
I reckon if either Sexton or Jackson gets an injury, Keatley will be called up as backup 10. He played well against Italy, and despite his poor performances since then, I think he is the next best available after Sexton and Jackson.
Could argue that JJ Hanrahan is also a good option (can also play 12 or 15), but his lack of game-time at 10 is a weakness in his candidacy.
Ian Humphreys is the next best option perhaps after Keatley.
I could be wrong, perhaps Madigan is the replacement 10 if either Sexton or Jackson gets injured, and Reid would come in to play the role that Madigan currently fills.

I don't agree with any of this. I can't see anyone from outside the 45 being called up unless there are multiple injuries in one position.

Ian Humphreys would need an outbreak of bubonic plague in Carton House to have any hope.

smiley_face

molloyjh wrote: »

If both Sexton and Jackson are injured then I agree re Keats. If JS gets injured then it should be PJ starting and IM on the bench. Which is exactly the same as we saw in the 6Ns. Mads wasn't trusted to start ahead of Keats but he was trusted on the bench ahead of him.

I think Sexton is 10 and Madigan is 22.
If Sexton gets injured then PJ would be 10.
Dunno what happens if Madigan gets injured, perhaps Jackson is 22 and Reid comes into the 31 to replace Madigan?
Or maybe better option is Keatley or Hanrahan to come in to replace Madigan, but neither were called into the training camp.

smiley_face

total former wrote: »

I don't agree with any of this. I can't see anyone from outside the 45 being called up unless there are multiple injuries in one position.

Ian Humphreys would need an outbreak of bubonic plague in Carton House to have any hope.

Please post what you see happening then.

Podge_irl

smiley_face wrote: »

Please post what you see happening then.

Madigan would obviously start at 10 ahead of Humphreys.

johnbaldry

best position for zebo is full back kearney over rated trimble should be in squad

smiley_face

Podge_irl wrote: »

Madigan would obviously start at 10 ahead of Humphreys.

I agree, but what else happens, who comes in to replace the injured player?

total former

smiley_face wrote: »

I agree, but what else happens, who comes in to replace the injured player?

No one. The point of naming 45 players is to cover injuries.

johnbaldry

johnbaldry wrote: »

best position for zebo is full back kearney over rated trimble should be in squad

trimble injured kearney better fullback than zebo full stops who needs them

smiley_face

total former wrote: »

No one. The point of naming 45 players is to cover injuries.

Yes, but only 31 make the RWC squad. Who would replace any of our 10 options if we had 1 or even 2 injuries?

smiley_face

Deleted User wrote: »

trimble injured kearney better fullback than zebo full stops who needs them

If you can only select 5 to cover the back 3 who would you take?
I'm assuming Kearney and Bowe are already going plus one of Zebo or Fitz at 11.
So would it be Jones, plus a left-wing, or right-wing, or Dave Kearney who can cover both wings.
Can Gilroy kick off both legs? perhaps he would be ahead of Kearney if he could cover both wings.
I think Trimble is a right-wing, and Zebo and Fitz are left-wings.
So would it be Jones plus one of Zebo/Fitz (whichever is not the 11) or Trimble/Gilroy or Dave Kearney?
I would go with Zebo at 11, Bowe at 14, Kearney at 15, Jones at 23, and Fitz as cover.
A bit weak on right wing if Bowe got injured, Jones would have to play right wing, and 23 would be Fitz. Also Bowe would probably play most of the matches against Canada and Romania with Jones coming on for him or Kearney.
It's a bit of a conundrum unless 6 go to cover the back 3, but I can't see how that would be affordable as we need an extra scrumhalf, and can only take 14 backs I'm assuming.
Dave Kearney or Gilroy may become the best cover option if they can cover both wings.
Or is Earls or McFadden going to go as centre/wing? That would mean Madigan and Earls/McFadden as the only centres besides Henshaw and Payne. I would probably choose McFadden in that case.
Otherwise could take a right-wing (Trimble/Gilroy) and must take Fitz as centre/wing option.
or take a centre/wing combo, and weighing it up probably Fitz and McFadden are the best balance, or else Fitz and Earls.
Could also go with Dave Kearney (both wings) and Cave (both centres).
I think Trimble is the backup for Bowe if he got injured, and Gilroy is behind Trimble, but neither would make the 31 travelling squad, but would be called in if needed.