My puppy is driving me mad!!!

cocobubbles

Hi guys, I'm looking for some help with my puppy Chubster, he is a lovable 6 month old collie/springer/lab cross and I love him to bits but he's driving me insane! Couple of issues I'm looking for some advice on -
1. Every time we let him out to do his business he starts eating my other dogs' poo, I clean their waste every day but literally if I don't pick it up immediately he's off out eating it.
2. He's weeing / pooing in the house out of spite every time we leave, and i know he is trained cause he never goes to the loo indoors overnight for 8 hours, but if we leave the house for half an hour he does his best to do his business as many times as possible in that space of time. He also barks the place down.

Any advice appreciated!

blindside88

Would you try leaving him outside while you are away for short periods like that so he won't have the option to go inside.

cerastes

Great idea, drive the neighbours up the walls

cocobubbles

blindside88 wrote: »

Would you try leaving him outside while you are away for short periods like that so he won't have the option to go inside.

We've been leaving him indoors because he barks so loudly and if he's in the garden we're afraid the neighbours might complain about the barking!

Nody

Point 1 is a known puppy issue at times; hopefully will grow out of it. Point 2 sounds like separation anxiety (possibly severe but I'm no expert on it) which you'd probably want to invest in a proper, certified, dog behaviorist to help you create a training plan to deal with it. Also what are you feeding him and what's his normal routine?

Charlie19

Try adding a small amount of pineapple to your dog's food as this is supposed to deter your dog from eating poop, apparently the pineapple has a dreadful tang off it when it comes out the other end.

Unfortunately it didn't work with my collie x, he's still having the od nibble.

On the house training, I'd agree with the other poster and leave the dog out for those short periods you're out of the house.

QuinDixie

cocobubbles wrote: »

Hi guys, I'm looking for some help with my puppy Chubster, he is a lovable 6 month old collie/springer/lab cross and I love him to bits but he's driving me insane! Couple of issues I'm looking for some advice on -
1. Every time we let him out to do his business he starts eating my other dogs' poo, I clean their waste every day but literally if I don't pick it up immediately he's off out eating it.
2. He's weeing / pooing in the house out of spite every time we leave, and i know he is trained cause he never goes to the loo indoors overnight for 8 hours, but if we leave the house for half an hour he does his best to do his business as many times as possible in that space of time. He also barks the place down.

Any advice appreciated!

My advice is you need to exercise him more. I know its hard to find time but that breed could literally run all day.

Springwell

There's various things you can feed to put them off the poop eating. Tinned pineapple is the cheapest.

On the accidents in the house. He is doing nothing "out of spite". Dogs don't think like that. They live in the moment, all he's thinking is that he's terrified you're never going to come back. The accidents are a distress thing as is the barking.

Separation anxiety can be cured but it takes effort and time, you need to leave him for very short periods with nice things like stuffed kings of bones and teach him to relax away from you. Literally leaving for five minutes and returning at the start. An Adaptil collar might also help him to relax.

DBB

Just to note, things like pineapple need to be fed to the dog whose poop he's eating, and be aware that the success rate with using pineapple is somewhere around 1-5%... not the effective remedy that we've all been led to believe!

I'd also like to reiterate, it's really, really important that you dont attritbute his toileting to spite... please don't think that... as others have said, this is almost certainly caused by anxiety, a whole different ball game to spite, I'm sure you'll agree. Luckily for us, dogs don't do spite, if they did (considering the way mankind treats them), we'd all be in a lot of trouble.
The fact that he's toileting when you leave is a strong indicator that it's separation anxiety, as does the fact that he barks if you leave him alone. You have a bigger problem here than you think you have, and I'd strongly suggest you deal with this straight away, preferably with qualified help, or you could have real difficulty in resolving it later. Separation anxiety is, to me at least, one of the most difficult behavioural problems to resolve because of the emotionality of it... it's difficult to convince a dog not to worry about being left alone when he's worried about being left alone (even if he's with other dogs... having other dogs resolves/prevents separation anxiety in a much smaller percentage of cases than people would have you believe).
As Springwell says, short absence first.. in your pup's case, these absences may have to start out at only a second or two, it depends on the dog.

blindside88

cerastes wrote: »

Great idea, drive the neighbours up the walls

I wasn't aware that the dog constantly barks while outside also. It's not unreasonable to think that an animal can be outside for 30 minutes without driving the neighbours up the walls

cocobubbles

Thanks for all the advice guys, I guess I put it down to spite cause I've never really had a puppy / dog that's had separation anxiety despite me being an experienced dog owner. I'm thinking it's because we've had chubster since he was born (our other dog Lily gave birth) and we've been very hands on with him since day dot (another error our our part) so maybe that's the reason? He's on the puppy Royal Canin & gets a walk every day but I think il try the steps everyone has recommended - kong & toys, leave the room for 5 mins & build on it from there. As far as the poo thing goes, maybe he will grow out of it soon but it's yucky!!

DBB

I wouldn't be banking on him growing out of eating the other dog's poop... it's not a behaviour I see many dogs growing out of without some sort of training/preventative work being done by the owner.
I would be a bit suspicious that his diet is not providing him with everything he needs, given the brand you've said he's on. It's not a brand that I would be happy to feed to y dogs.. I used to, but not since it reduced in quality once taken over by the multinational who owns it now. This may be making him seek out more nutrients by eating poop... incidentally, what's the dog whose poop he's eating fed on?
Here's a thread about coprophagia (eating poop): http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=90086305

As for leaving him for 5 minutes... why 5 minutes? If your pup starts to become distressed 5 seconds, 30 seconds, 1 minute, 2 minutes after you leave, then starting out with 5 minutes absences is too long and you'll make little progress. You've got to go at the dog's speed, and start off with absences short enough that he doesn't start reacting badly, and build it from there... slowly. You have to aim to not distress him at all.
I'd suspect, from what you say, that he wasn't gradually acclimatised to time alone in puppyhood? Loads of handling in puppy hood is brilliant, by the way! But we do have to get them used to time alone too

ShaShaBear

On the dog poop, we had the same problem with Opie. He was three months old when we got him and is now a year old. While he doesn't actively seek out poop any more (after serious behavioural rehabilitation, crate training and several radical changes in diet), we still have caught him doing it the odd time outside - Maybe twice or three times since he was 8 months. A good friend of mine has an 8 year old JRT that has done it his whole life!

ene

you need to teach the dog a really effective 'leave it' once he knows this then it can work with anything! Its a hard one to teach but well worth it!

Have you thought about crating the dog when your out of the house? my pup gets separation anxiety (so much so that i can't even go to the toilet by myself) but he kind of understands his routine that he goes in the crate with a kong/safe treat and he seems happy. I have found draping blankets over the top of the crate helps him as i think it gives him more security.

cocobubbles

Hey guys.... looking for some further advice on this topic as the puppy has gotten progressively worse! His separation anxiety is now so bad that he starts freaking if me or my partner even leave the room or the house. Example: this evening my partner put his shoes & jacket on to pop to the shop and I was staying in the house in the same room as the puppy. As soon as my partner left the puppy started whining and peed in the hallway. I've tried everything but he's not learning. I've set up a camera that I can watch on my phone when we're at work and it's upsetting to see him whining and barking for a good 20-30 mins after we have left. He then starts destroying anything he can get his paws on despite the fact that he has several toys. HELP PLEASE!!!!

ihatewinter

Do you or did you mollycoddle the puppy. Really over protective and too much handling/comfort and the puppy cannot adjust to time on his own.

3 months ago you had a problem, your pup was 6 months and you were instructed to seek a qualified behaviorist but you didn't. Now the pup is 9 months and the problem is much worse. The issue could have been solved much quicker 3 months ago when the puppy was younger. Unless you want to pick up **** and mop up wee for the duration of Chubster's life then there isn't much you can do without professional help.

Cows Go µ

When you say you tried everything, what exactly have you tried? Though at this stage, you really need someone qualified to help if it's gotten as bad as you say.

cocobubbles

ihatewinter wrote: »

Do you or did you mollycoddle the puppy. Really over protective and too much handling/comfort and the puppy cannot adjust to time on his own.

3 months ago you had a problem, your pup was 6 months and you were instructed to seek a qualified behaviorist but you didn't. Now the pup is 9 months and the problem is much worse. The issue could have been solved much quicker 3 months ago when the puppy was younger. Unless you want to pick up **** and mop up wee for the duration of Chubster's life then there isn't much you can do without professional help.

Well that's me told.....

tk123

+1 You need professional help. Working on separation anxiety is a long and slow process and the longer you leave it the worse it's going to get.

Dubl07

I'm sure you've been doing your best but collie/springer/lab = two really high energy breeds and a third that needs a lot of exercise. Is Chubster getting out enough for long walks and off-lead time? If your partner went out, the dog might really have wanted a walk and been frustrated when he realised a walk wasn't part of the equation. I've found it invaluable to just take my pup out for a while to walk and sniff for even 20 minutes before leaving for any length of time.

A friend has used a behaviourist for her live-wire pup and found it to be money well spent. Have you tried that yet?

cocobubbles

Cows Go µ wrote: »

When you say you tried everything, what exactly have you tried? Though at this stage, you really need someone qualified to help if it's gotten as bad as you say.

I've read numerous training tips and tried them - leaving the dog alone for a few mins at a time and tried to build up the elapsed time, no eye contact or touch before we leave the room etc.

cocobubbles

Dubl07 wrote: »

I'm sure you've been doing your best but collie/springer/lab = two really high energy breeds and a third that needs a lot of exercise. Is Chubster getting out enough for long walks and off-lead time? If your partner went out, the dog might really have wanted a walk and been frustrated when he realised a walk wasn't part of the equation. I've found it invaluable to just take my pup out for a while to walk and sniff for even 20 minutes before leaving for any length of time.

A friend has used a behaviourist for her live-wire pup and found it to be money well spent. Have you tried that yet?

Yep I've tried walking him before we leave to tire him out. we're quite near the beach so I let him off the lead most times I walk him. On average he gets a 20 min walk in the mornings and a 45 min walk in the evenings.

tk123

cocobubbles wrote: »

I've read numerous training tips and tried them - leaving the dog alone for a few mins at a time and tried to build up the elapsed time, no eye contact or touch before we leave the room etc.

A few minutes is too long (as DBB told you in July) - you need to start off with a few seconds. Are you leaving him with anything - a kong/chew/toy etc? Closing doors behind you when you leave the room? Getting up with keys, jacket, shoes etc and then just sitting down. This is all stuff you need to repeat again and again and again.

With the help of a behaviourist I was able to build up to an hour of alone time (with my other dog who's not anxious - having a second dog makes no difference) but it took 2-3 months of hard work.

Dubl07

cocobubbles wrote: »

Yep I've tried walking him before we leave to tire him out. we're quite near the beach so I let him off the lead most times I walk him. On average he gets a 20 min walk in the mornings and a 45 min walk in the evenings.

I'm dubious that's really enough for a high-energy dog. "A tired dog is a happy dog" may be a bit of a cliché but on days when I'd rather couch-surf I bear it in mind. With Netflix etc, I can't tell myself it's vital to stay in rather than go walkies. Far better to walk first and then both of us can relax.

Did you talk to or engage a behaviourist yet?

tk123

Dubl07 wrote: »

I'm dubious that's really enough for a high-energy dog. "A tired dog is a happy dog"

An over exercised dog is potentially damaged for life though - It's a 9 month old pup with joints that are still developing so the 5 min rule would apply.

EDITed to add - no amount of exercise will stop my dog from freaking out if he's left behind.

lazeedaisy

First off, personally, we used a behaviourist as it seems to be all the rage here, it did not work in the least and they don't come cheap. I was quite peeved at the whole experience to be honest.

Secondly, yes, it was you told, you came on seeking advice, and again the same advice several months later.

It amazes me people who ask for advise and don't appreciate honesty.

We have a dog who will be 7 next month, and did not deal with separation well. We have had to work hard and long with him, as a couple, and it does get easier, he copes, but if I were to think he would be stressed for more than a few minutes it would kill me, let alone 30!

How long are you both away during the day, and what is his routine?

Dubl07

tk123 wrote: »

An over exercised dog is potentially damaged for life though - It's a 9 month old pup with joints that are still developing so the 5 min rule would apply.

My bad and thanks for the reminder TK. I've been reading too many of Jon Katz's blogs about his young border collie Fate. I think she'd go demented if she only had 5 mins/month. A couple of other friends have had springers over the years but they were older when I knew them.

Do you think more mental games and trick training to tire out Chubster would be helpful to the OP?

ETA: Chubster is freaking out even when he's with the OP but her other half goes out. Is that separation anxiety?

hotamatua

I would suggest getting rid of him now-sell him,break his neck,its up to you.Why invite a ****ting machine into your home to bring grief upon yourself.Dogs in houses are a bloody nuisance.They might be cute and all but the downside is that your house will start to stink to high heaven and your friends will visit you less and less.Good luck!

Mod note: User banned

fox0512

Eating other dogs poo is very common in young dogs and they normally grow out of it but can still do it on occasion when older....a house trained dog is all very nice once your there to leave him out and correct him but once you leave the house so does your authority and as to when you return is not foremost on his mind with a swollen bladder!

Those exercise times are sufficient for your dog if thats all the time you have but depending on his drive!....I have handled more dogs than i can remember and i often wonder why some people find it hard to understand why is my pooch behaving like he is.....as there are some very clever people in this world there are also some very stupid and the same rules apply for dogs (my own included)....not all dogs bark for long periods due to stress loneliness etc...some are just pure daft (again my own incl)....

Many high drive dogs need to be worked hard everyday and they thrive on it but are just not suited to being back yard dogs with walkies here and there...

ihatewinter

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well we have 'MORON OF THE MONTH above. Well that suggestive post does not help, it's stupid and completely wrong IDIOT, IMBECILE whatever you are.

Cows Go µ

lazeedaisy wrote: »

First off, personally, we used a behaviourist as it seems to be all the rage here, it did not work in the least and they don't come cheap. I was quite peeved at the whole experience to be honest.

Secondly, yes, it was you told, you came on seeking advice, and again the same advice several months later.

It amazes me people who ask for advise and don't appreciate honesty.

We have a dog who will be 7 next month, and did not deal with separation well. We have had to work hard and long with him, as a couple, and it does get easier, he copes, but if I were to think he would be stressed for more than a few minutes it would kill me, let alone 30!

How long are you both away during the day, and what is his routine?

Yeah, sometimes a behaviourist may not work but in my experience people do tend to have positive experiences with them so long as they come very highly recommended in the first place. Unfortunately there are a lot of useless ones but there are a few who can help a great deal.

If only because they get to see the dog, how he reacts, how the owners interact with him. Here, we only get to see what the owner thinks and most owners miss a lot of things. And really if he's as bad as the OP is saying, something needs to be done sooner rather than later for the dog's sake and trying this and that from the internet could waste a lot of time.

OP, if anyone here is going to help in the slightest, we really need a more detailed explanation. What you do when you leave, how long it is before he freaks out, what other kinds of training you do (mental stimulation is often far more important than physical), what you do when on walks. Exactly what sort of steps you have taken so far and how he has reacted to them. No detail is too small. (and this is something you will have to go over with a professional anyway so this would be a good exercise for gathering everything together before speaking to one)

Ken.

Something that hasn't been asked so far, you mention in your opening post "eating my other dogs poo". How do the dogs get on together?. Does the other dog play up when ye leave for a few minutes,hours etc?

DBB

ihatewinter wrote: »

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well we have 'MORON OF THE MONTH above. Well that suggestive post does not help, it's stupid and completely wrong IDIOT, IMBECILE whatever you are.

Mod note: Please be aware that personal abuse, name-calling etc is not tolerated in this forum under any circumstances. Please report posts you have a problem with, rather than abusing posters you don't agree with.

lazeedaisy

Cows Go µ wrote: »

Yeah, sometimes a behaviourist may not work but in my experience people do tend to have positive experiences with them so long as they come very highly recommended in the first place. Unfortunately there are a lot of useless ones but there are a few who can help a great deal.

Off thread.... But I did a lot of research, only the best is good enough for my dogs, and I did go with the best, my experience was not good,

fox0512

ihatewinter wrote: »

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well we have 'MORON OF THE MONTH above. Well that suggestive post does not help, it's stupid and completely wrong IDIOT, IMBECILE whatever you are.

have been working with dogs for over 30 years and you??...there is no working with some dogs and thats a fact....the problem is- is not always with the dog itself but with people who choose to bring home high drive dogs and expect them to behave in your normal back garden its not and ever going to work..FACT

BTW..This is IMO and not directed at any one person....

Cows Go µ

lazeedaisy wrote: »

Off thread.... But I did a lot of research, only the best is good enough for my dogs, and I did go with the best, my experience was not good,

I'm not saying you didn't, I'm sorry if it came across that way. I meant that if a lot of research is done, you are more likely to have a good experience. It's not guaranteed, such as in your case and for any number of reasons, but it is more likely. And is definitely more likely to be effective than advice off the internet

DBB

fox0512 wrote: »

have been working with dogs for over 30 years and you??...there is no working with some dogs and thats a fact....the problem is- is not always with the dog itself but with people who choose to bring home high drive dogs and expect them to behave in your normal back garden its not and ever going to work..FACT

...and this is one of the reasons why personally abusing a poster on-thread causes major problems.
fox0512, ihatewinter was referring to the poster above you, it just so happens that your post went live in between the two.
Can we drop this now please?
thanks,
DBB

fox0512

DBB wrote: »

...and this is one of the reasons why personally abusing a poster on-thread causes major problems.
fox0512, ihatewinter was referring to the poster above you, it just so happens that your post went live in between the two.
Can we drop this now please?
thanks,
DBB

Oh lol....so glad i didnt go off on one then :)

Fluorescence

If spending money on a qualified, experienced behaviourist isn't something you can/will do, then there's a few other things you can try:

Tiny baby steps is the key! Put on your coat, shoes, grab your keys - do all the things you do when you're leaving... and then don't. Give Chubster a treat (if he's not freaking out). Sit down, take it all off. Repeat this step (everyone in the household) until Chubster takes no notice anymore.

When he stops panicking and is cool with the routine, do it but leave the room. Only for a few seconds, return, treats/praise etc.

Build it up to a few minutes outside the room to in and out the front door, to a few minutes out the front door, etc etc. Keep building and building it up.

Separation anxiety is a massive behavioural problem to deal with because it will lead to other health complications down the line - if we were stressed out for hours every day, we'd not be in the best state either! So all your time and energy invested in helping him cope will make for a happier, healthier dog, a cleaner house and (Hopefully) fewer vet bills.

Best of luck, it's not easy! It would have been better to tackle it months ago but you can only move forward from where you are now