Dairy Chit Chat- Please read Mod note in post #1

Jexbullcalf

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Hi everyone as some may know the ICOS dairy Co-op training program has been cancelled due to lack of interest.....
I am trying to get it reopened.
I need people and I need people fast I need this need to be finalised be Wednesday or its gone for another year.
If anyone knows of anybody who would be interested / is the type of person that should or would like to do the course or any one who would do the course if he/she just got the encouragement of being asked todo the course. If could you put them in contact with my self please that would be great. or i could contact them my self if I was pointed in the wright direction.

Course content
Co-Op rules, structure and governance Icos
Introduction to Co-Op finance
Introduction to Co-Op legal framework ICOS
Agriculture policy ICOS
International dairy marketing Irish dairy board ICOS
Leadership & strategy ICOS
Onsite visit to moorepark Agriculture collage

Cost of course €155 which includes dinner and one overnight stay in the horse and jockey.
Course dates as of now 28,29 November & 15 December in the horse and jockey. December 14 in Moorepark. These dates are subject to change

If anyone might be interested in this drop me a PM.
Shane to see it go

Sounds interesting buts what's the benefit of it do you think?

alps

Jexbullcalf wrote: »

Sounds interesting buts what's the benefit of it do you think?

Education, and self development...

Water John

Anyone on a coop committee, not necessarily a Board should know the basics,principles and history of cooperativism.

On the other side, I hope they don't get the legal guy who spoke at their meeting two weeks ago to give the talk on Director responsibilities as he could not differentiate between that role in a public/private company and a coop.

GrasstoMilk

Jexbullcalf wrote: »

Sounds interesting buts what's the benefit of it do you think?

Basically for anyone who wants to know more about the coop structure or what's to get involved in the future but doesn't want to go in a green horn.
For lads like myself who knows sweet nothing about how a coop is structured and might be interested in taking part in regional boards in the near future it'll give me a start on how it all works.

Even for someone who will never get involved it will introduce them to how it's all done

Jexbullcalf

alps wrote: »

Education, and self development...

Thanks! I understood that part I was looking for a bit more detail!!

Jexbullcalf

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Basically for anyone who wants to know more about the coop structure or what's to get involved in the future but doesn't want to go in a green horn.
For lads like myself who knows sweet nothing about how a coop is structured and might be interested in taking part in regional boards in the near future it'll give me a start on how it all works.

Even for someone who will never get involved it will introduce them to how it's all done

Thanks for that gtm

kowtow

GrasstoMilk wrote:

Basically for anyone who wants to know more about the coop structure or what's to get involved in the future but doesn't want to go in a green horn. For lads like myself who knows sweet nothing about how a coop is structured and might be interested in taking part in regional boards in the near future it'll give me a start on how it all works.

Will try and do it if I can free the time and if you think another registration will help the numbers.

Although God knows I have no intention whatever of using anything I learn!

GrasstoMilk

kowtow wrote: »

Will try and do it if I can free the time and if you think another registration will help the numbers.

Although God knows I have no intention whatever of using anything I learn!

Lol
I think it's 185e for non macra members

kowtow

GrasstoMilk wrote:

Lol I think it's 185e for non macra members

Is there an upper age limit or do I have to send the little fella?

GrasstoMilk

kowtow wrote: »

Is there an upper age limit or do I have to send the little fella?

No age limit

They might let you in for free for the debates you might cause

kowtow

GrasstoMilk wrote:

They might let you in for free for the debates you might cause

I've been known to bite my lip through a few PowerPoints.

Just as long as there isn't audience participation and role play. I disapprove of role play.

atlantic mist

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/revenue-claim-they-are-owed-millions-from-kerry-shareholders-35233444.html

pedigree 6

atlantic mist wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/revenue-claim-they-are-owed-millions-from-kerry-shareholders-35233444.html

No wonder all the Kerry farmers are minted down there.

No chance of Glanbia giving out free shares.:pac:

OverRide

atlantic mist wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/revenue-claim-they-are-owed-millions-from-kerry-shareholders-35233444.html

:eek: :eek: :eek:


I don't see how that could stand if challenged in court,are they going to go after shareholders who had rights issues next and say doubled their shares but haven't sold them yet?
It would be double taxation surely and other things
So if I get a discount instead of shares should I be taxed on the imaginary money I don't have to pay because of said discount?Is said discount /imaginary money taxable new revenue for me now?
It's a p1ss take and pretty poor accounting by the revenue people who've dreamed it up

OverRide

pedigree 6 wrote: »

No wonder all the Kerry farmers are minted down there.

No chance of Glanbia giving out free shares.:pac:

Ha,you go through the history of your shares and you'll find they have,so this farce is very pertinent to Glanbia shareholders

Panch18

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Hi everyone as some may know the ICOS dairy Co-op training program has been cancelled due to lack of interest.....
I am trying to get it reopened.
I need people and I need people fast I need this need to be finalised be Wednesday or its gone for another year.
If anyone knows of anybody who would be interested / is the type of person that should or would like to do the course or any one who would do the course if he/she just got the encouragement of being asked todo the course. If could you put them in contact with my self please that would be great. or i could contact them my self if I was pointed in the wright direction.

Course content
Co-Op rules, structure and governance Icos
Introduction to Co-Op finance
Introduction to Co-Op legal framework ICOS
Agriculture policy ICOS
International dairy marketing Irish dairy board ICOS
Leadership & strategy ICOS
Onsite visit to moorepark Agriculture collage

Cost of course 155 which includes dinner and one overnight stay in the horse and jockey.
Course dates as of now 28,29 November & 15 December in the horse and jockey. December 14 in Moorepark. These dates are subject to change

If anyone might be interested in this drop me a PM.
Shane to see it go

Damn it, I am hugely interested but can't make at least a couple of those dates

I would be extremely interested in going to the next session of this though

Signpost

So I got the results of my sensitivity test back, only thing I'd overlooked is what the results are telling me
Anyone able to educate a fool as to what I'm looking at here? Don't have an SCC problem in the herd, so am I right in thinking all I should be looking at is a long last antibiotic in the tube for the Straph Aureus?
The one cow showing Strep Uberis - just give her a round of mastitis tubes before drying her off?

Panch18

OverRide wrote: »

atlantic mist wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/revenue-claim-they-are-owed-millions-from-kerry-shareholders-35233444.html

:eek: :eek: :eek:


I don't see how that could stand if challenged in court,are they going to go after shareholders who had rights issues next and say doubled their shares but haven't sold them yet?
It would be double taxation surely and other things
So if I get a discount instead of shares should I be taxed on the imaginary money I don't have to pay because of said discount?Is said discount /imaginary money taxable new revenue for me now?
It's a p1ss take and pretty poor accounting by the revenue people who've dreamed it up

They are treating the shares as income, so basically saying instead of receiving a higher price they will have received shares as compensation

My Mrs won an award at work which they gave her shares worth 10k. She had to pay tax on the value of the shares at issue date

Income tax that is. I think PRSI as well

So nearly half of it went straight away

Basically taxed the same as a cash bonus

I assume they are looking the same at this

Don't forget there will be capital gains on this as well when sold!!

kowtow

Panch18 wrote: »

They are treating the shares as income, so basically saying instead of receiving a higher price they will have received shares as compensation

My Mrs won an award at work which they gave her shares worth 10k. She had to pay tax on the value of the shares at issue date

Income tax that is. I think PRSI as well

So nearly half of it went straight away

Basically taxed the same as a cash bonus

I assume they are looking the same at this

Don't forget there will be capital gains on this as well when sold!!

The capital gain will be (or should be) only a gain as between the price today (the bit they deem as income) and whatever they are eventually sold from.

Why oh Why could they not have taken a bit of advice and distributed these as share options if that might have brought them into line with employee share options. Did they even consider this?

And where are they getting the value from for tax purposes? Are these shares freely traded / trade able? Are they PLC shares, or a different class?

Panch18

Sorry good point Kowtow, capital gains will only be from the price at which income tax is paid to sale price

pedigree 6

OverRide wrote: »

Ha,you go through the history of your shares and you'll find they have,so this farce is very pertinent to Glanbia shareholders

I bought all mine.
Even our spinout was exchanging a % of my co-op shares into plc.

This Kerry job was making new shares and giving them to the farmers based on what milk they supplied.

I was wondering what the fuss on here was about Kerry shares the last while.
The posters must not have been milking cows.

kowtow

Panch18 wrote: »

Sorry good point Kowtow, capital gains will only be from the price at which income tax is paid to sale price

I'm not familiar with share option taxation in Ireland although I am aware that it is punitive compared to the UK or the US.

So whether or not they could have been implemented as options might be a moot point if there is no advantage with local taxation to doing so.

But it all seems a bit last minute at the very least, did the processor not warn suppliers at the time?

atlantic mist

coop top ups is effectively us pay income tax on share capital appreciation, shares sold by coop, distributed as a top up, capital gains tax at 33%, marginal rate of tax 41%, then again they do it a a low year we might only hit the 20% bracket, pity we can never make the decision ourselves, did the coop pay a cgt on sale of shares does anyone know?

glanbia are ok as far as im aware, all rights issue/bonus issue as opposed to swapping income for shares, all before my time so i dont need to worry

C4d78

Have 9 fr Cull cows here that were dried start of October. They spent last few weeks on an outside block grazing without any ration. They're big framed old cows and were weighed yesterday. 750kgs.
They've a bit of flesh on them but will take a bit of finishing yet.
What would people think they'd be worth in mart now?
Don't want to hold onto them any longer...
Anyone see any similar selling in mart recently.

Panch18

kowtow wrote: »

Panch18 wrote: »

Sorry good point Kowtow, capital gains will only be from the price at which income tax is paid to sale price

I'm not familiar with share option taxation in Ireland although I am aware that it is punitive compared to the UK or the US.

So whether or not they could have been implemented as options might be a moot point if there is no advantage with local taxation to doing so.

But it all seems a bit last minute at the very least, did the processor not warn suppliers at the time?

I have very little knowledge myself, only what herself tells me

My understanding is that there is little difference between an option and an actual share award, and you pay income tax on them regardless

So you either sell shares to pay the tax or use savings

That's my understanding

Keepgrowing

C4d78 wrote: »

Have 9 fr Cull cows here that were dried start of October. They spent last few weeks on an outside block grazing without any ration. They're big framed old cows and were weighed yesterday. 750kgs.
They've a bit of flesh on them but will take a bit of finishing yet.
What would people think they'd be worth in mart now?
Don't want to hold onto them any longer...
Anyone see any similar selling in mart recently.

Tell you tomorrow evening , guy coming to buy ours tomorrow

Water John

According to the FI, the new loan @ 2.95% interest is only to replace existing loans. Had not heard that exclusion before.

awaywithyou

Panch18 wrote: »

They are treating the shares as income, so basically saying instead of receiving a higher price they will have received shares as compensation

My Mrs won an award at work which they gave her shares worth 10k. She had to pay tax on the value of the shares at issue date

Income tax that is. I think PRSI as well

So nearly half of it went straight away

Basically taxed the same as a cash bonus

I assume they are looking the same at this

Don't forget there will be capital gains on this as well when sold!!

So she paid tax on the value the shares were on the day they were issued to her??

revenue are saying kerry shares are worth 65 in 2011 (they were actually worth about 27euro per share that yr).. 75 in 2012... and 90 in 2013 (they have never made it as far as 90euro in the stockmarket)


this has the smell of a right smash and grab effort by revenue as well as being a 'testing the waters' exercise that will if it succeeds here go country wide

OverRide

I think farmers since January 16 have been able to write pre 2000 milk quota purchase off against cgt on the sale of the shares which in a lot of cases means no cgt is being paid
The pre 2000 quota purchases couldn't be wrote off as cap ex so it's only fair that they are useable as a capital loss against cgt
Revenue seems to be going quid pro quo
It still means that in theory discount is now taxable which would be a logistical nightmare
Ergo if a group took this to court,they'd win in my opinion

kowtow

Panch18 wrote: »

I have very little knowledge myself, only what herself tells me

My understanding is that there is little difference between an option and an actual share award, and you pay income tax on them regardless

So you either sell shares to pay the tax or use savings

That's my understanding

An employee share option is a little bit different to a "normal" traded option but generally they are incentivised, and certainly not taxed until they are exercised - i.e. turned into shares (usually to be sold) when the employee chooses to do so.

Many (most perhaps) share options are issued in technology companies at a point where the company is worth very little, and often unlisted. An option to purchase half a million shares at a tenth of a cent might be enough to get a financial director or technical guy on board at the beginning, on a comparatively low salary (sometimes even no salary) in the hope that one day when the company is successful and lists he or she will be able to excersise them and pick up a decent chunk of cash.

For that reason they aren't usually taxed on issue or on vesting but only upon excersise, and even then in many countries they are taxed at a discount to reflect the risk that the entrepreneurial employee took in accepting them in lieu of salary in the first place.

I've seen many many employee options over the years turn out worthless, and a fair few turn out to be the size of a decent lottery win. Tragically I've rarely been able to predict which would be which in advance.

Buford T. Justice XIX

awaywithyou wrote: »

So she paid tax on the value the shares were on the day they were issued to her??

revenue are saying kerry shares are worth 65 in 2011 (they were actually worth about 27euro per share that yr).. 75 in 2012... and 90 in 2013 (they have never made it as far as 90euro in the stockmarket)


this has the smell of a right smash and grab effort by revenue as well as being a 'testing the waters' exercise that will if it succeeds here go country wide

That's it in a nut shell. They are using extremely high share valuations for the years they are 'taxing', like 90 euro which Kerry shares have never reached.

When Kerry pulled out of Bord Bia, Brosnan took them to court to get the full value of Kerrys shares in Bord Bia. The case was lost in the Supreme Court with the ruling stating the shares can only be valued at par value ie £1/share. This appears to contradict that court ruling.

Also, there was no option to pay the value of taxation they are seeking on the Revenue returns for any of those years. That would seem to indicate that even Revenue didn't see those patronage shares as taxable at the time so it seems a bit rich coming back to us now telling us there are penalties due on the tax that they didn't even consider we owed.

If you get a letter, contact your accountant and let them know.

But DO NOT pay the sum indicated until you have discussed it with them. This has a way to run yet and a court case seems very likely at this stage.

I have my doubts that anywhere near the figure they are looking for will be received. We are only 18 months at most from an election with the current position of the Government and I doubt any Government TDs will be arriving in Kerry milk suppliers yards if this is passed without extreme abuse being incurred, at best.

jaymla627

Signpost wrote: »

So I got the results of my sensitivity test back, only thing I'd overlooked is what the results are telling me
Anyone able to educate a fool as to what I'm looking at here? Don't have an SCC problem in the herd, so am I right in thinking all I should be looking at is a long last antibiotic in the tube for the Straph Aureus?
The one cow showing Strep Uberis - just give her a round of mastitis tubes before drying her off?

For Steph uberis go with terexine tubes, a lot of mastitis tubes don't contain anything that will help fight Steph uberis but terexine does

degetme

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

That's it in a nut shell. They are using extremely high share valuations for the years they are 'taxing', like 90 euro which Kerry shares have never reached.

When Kerry pulled out of Bord Bia, Brosnan took them to court to get the full value of Kerrys shares in Bord Bia. The case was lost in the Supreme Court with the ruling stating the shares can only be valued at par value ie £1/share. This appears to contradict that court ruling.

Also, there was no option to pay the value of taxation they are seeking on the Revenue returns for any of those years. That would seem to indicate that even Revenue didn't see those patronage shares as taxable at the time so it seems a bit rich coming back to us now telling us there are penalties due on the tax that they didn't even consider we owed.

If you get a letter, contact your accountant and let them know.

But DO NOT pay the sum indicated until you have discussed it with them. This has a way to run yet and a court case seems very likely at this stage.

I have my doubts that anywhere near the figure they are looking for will be received. We are only 18 months at most from an election with the current position of the Government and I doubt any Government TDs will be arriving in Kerry milk suppliers yards if this is passed without extreme abuse being incurred, at best.

I know of someone got the letter yesterday looking for 25k. Awaiting letter here according to farming press. Some joke

Buford T. Justice XIX

degetme wrote: »

I know of someone got the letter yesterday looking for 25k. Awaiting letter here according to farming press. Some joke

Yeah, on top of sh!te milk prices, they throw this one into the mix as well.

I was at a meeting last night and one of the lads I was talking to was saying that Stan went to Revenue looking for info on what benefits would accrue to farmers if a full conversion was done. Apparently, this opened Revenues eyes to the potential money they could gain. Now I don't know if that's true but I wouldn't be surprised with the enthusiasm that Stan is looking for a full conversion.

On the share prices...

https://www.google.ie/search?q=kerry+group+plc+share+price&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gws_rd=cr&ei=q0o0WMXBCIz0gAbo3IrwDQ

it looks like Revenue took the Anglo Irish Bank price projection to heart and pulled figures straight from their a**e:mad:

OverRide

pedigree 6 wrote: »

I bought all mine.
Even our spinout was exchanging a % of my co-op shares into plc.

This Kerry job was making new shares and giving them to the farmers based on what milk they supplied.

T'was mentioned in the Dail today in questions to the Taoiseach by 3 or 4 T.d's

By the way,buying shares in Glanbia CoOp for a fiver each when their real value is 10 or 15 times and more than that ,would if not challenged fall foul of this revenue scoping exercise too

So I wouldn't be resting easy there if Revenue get away with setting a new precedent

kowtow

OverRide wrote:

By the way,buying shares in Glanbia CoOp for a fiver each when their real value is 10 or 15 times and more than that ,would if not challenged fall foul of this revenue scoping exercise too

Yes, if they can be freely traded it's the equivalent of buying a call option for a fiver and exercising it on the same day. It's possible that they are simply taxed as a capital gain when and if you sell them?

blackdog1

Does anyone here pasteurise their milk for calves? And if so do you find any problems with it?

Buford T. Justice XIX

kowtow wrote: »

Yes, if they can be freely traded it's the equivalent of buying a call option for a fiver and exercising it on the same day. It's possible that they are simply taxed as a capital gain when and if you sell them?

That was what happened till 2011 or so when a measure to tax shares received from conversions as capital gains at the rate on the date of sale, when and if they were sold, was removed from the budget bill.

There are a host of other measures that are going to cause problems in the future if this gets through.

freedominacup

kowtow wrote: »

Yes, if they can be freely traded it's the equivalent of buying a call option for a fiver and exercising it on the same day. It's possible that they are simply taxed as a capital gain when and if you sell them?

They are traded on a grey market but relatively freely. Market value currently around a fiver, underlying value??? Think of a number and double it......... I'm not sure where people will get caught on this one other than normal cgt if price rises and they sell out.

kowtow

freedominacup wrote:

They are traded on a grey market but relatively freely. Market value currently around a fiver, underlying value??? Think of a number and double it......... I'm not sure where people will get caught on this one other than normal cgt if price rises and they sell out.

In this case market value, grey or otherwise, is your friend. You can't eat underlying value.

Tax is levied on market value as a rule.

Fixture

Lots of unqualified opinions being offered here so I'd advise any one potentially affected to talk to a good accountant before engaging with Revenue.

Some may not have paid their full CGT liability on any plc shares sold (regardless of how the shares were acquired). That could be the biggest cost from this fiasco.

Kerry not the only co op to issue patronage shares but the high market value of their shares makes it a different beast entirely. It was also done on a large scale for a series of years.

Given the wealth created by the Kerry Group's success, Revenue would not be doing their job if they were not looking closely to see if they were getting their share of the spoils. Even one CGT audit case would have alerted them to farmers with "free" Plc shares with no cost against them (acquired via subsequent spin out from co op shares)

blue5000

We've almost reached the 10,000 post limit here, thanks everyone for your contributions, new thread is here; http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=101750355#post101750355