European Commission Putting Pressure on Goverment to Tender Rail Services

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Do you know the intricacies or not, because your statements above are somewhat contradictory?

Maybe you could enlighten us as to the differences between train driving in Britain and why drivers with British experience need to start at the bottom, regardless of the extent of that experience?

Personally I don't believe they do, and I don't go for EOTR's usual "they do because the do and that's it, ask them yourself" type arguments.

Well I've long stopped reading any of that posters' posts so I'm not really bothered.

I'm not trying to pick an argument with you - I really just don't think you actually understand that Irish and British railways are very different beasts.

What I am aware of is that Irish railways has;
- Unique traction to Britain
- Unique signalling systems to Britain
- A different rule book to Britain
- Many different basic operating practices to Britain

That particular job is just one that is pretty unique here unfortunately - it's not down to IE being archaic as you mentioned earlier. It's just easier to train people who are already familiar with our systems.

n97 mini

Do you really think that a British train driver would need more than 1 year's training?

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Do you really think that a British train driver would need more than 1 year's training?

I don't know - but it could well be yes when you factor everything in. I'm just aware that the two railways are very dissimilar despite appearances.

Consequently I'm not going to make sweeping statements to the effect that IE don't know what they are doing.

It may seem daft, but generally things are done a particular way for a reason.

n97 mini

Yeah but that reason isn't always the right one.

Vic_08

n97 mini wrote: »

Do you really think that a British train driver would need more than 1 year's training?

I that is how long it takes other trainees then yes.


Training consists of:

Route learning which is obviously specific to the lines driven and is not a transferable skill.

Type training which is specific to the traction involved so unlikely to be transferable UK-IRL in any large amount, a thorough knowledge of fault-finding a UK 3rd rail EMU will not be particularly useful when a 201 ser breaks down.

Rule Book, signalling, operational, safety, emergency procedures, etc. Some will be the same, some similar and some different. While it is easy to assume that a UK driver would be able to short-cut this process a mistake of confusing UK and Irl procedures could easily be as dangerous as someone poorly trained.

Actual driving skills which is a relatively small part of the overall training would be the only part of the job that a transferring driver would have in the bag and even that is very dependent on individual train and line characteristics.


Just to give a comparison, London Underground drivers training to become UK mainline drivers do not get to shortcut the standard training procedures either, even those who are already trained to drive on certain sections of NR lines that some LU routes use.

dubscottie

n97 mini wrote: »

Do you really think that a British train driver would need more than 1 year's training?

Most train drivers in the UK have worked as guards etc so have the "basic" route knowledge.

The new drivers for the re-opened Waverley route have been undergoing training for the past 2 years as they are new to the railway.

Train drivers need to know not just the line, but all the things around it. Farms, land marks etc so they know exactly where the train is at all times (esp at night).

I suggest you look for some of the "route learning" vids on youtube.. It might give you an idea of the amount of info a driver needs to know for ONE route..

Now as a driver might sign for many routes, that's alot of info they need to know.

A bus/lorry driver does not need to know the number of every traffic light they may pass.. Train drivers do..

Carawaystick

hytrogen wrote: »

NTA and dept of transport will swiftly intervene.

Oh yeah, How will they make them work/train replacement staff?


lets say a trainer doesn't want to xfer.
If you don't transfer to this other company with the same or better terms ad conditions, you're fired? IÉ all out strike.

Or person goes on the sick from stress


Or are you going to sell certain parts of IÉ to some newly formed company? and the drivers all decide not to work for the new company. what are you gonna do?
sign this new contract or you're fired?
Co-erced contracts are unenforceable.

shodge

If you remember the bus strike a few months ago on the buses, one of the reasons for the strike was the transfer of drivers to private companies that would be taking over the 10%.
As a result of the strike zero drivers will be transferring to private operators, in effect TUPE does not apply to the bus drivers in CIE.
The bus drivers are in the same unions as those who work in IE, so you can bet the farm that the same will apply to them, no one will be transferring.
Any talk of privatising any of the CIE operations is only talk, it won’t be happening.
If a operator wants to take over they must have their own staff, it would take months to recruit and train them, all the time they would be getting paid but not working, waiting for the day the private operator took over.
The government would have to be giving the private operators massive amount of money for free to pay the wages of these workers who would be not working, and that ain’t going to happen.
When you see the government coming in with offers of redundancy and fixing the pension hole in CIE, then you know privatising is a runner, until then its talk, nothing will happen.

kidneyfan

Friend of a friend worked for Irish rail. Sent a letter to his boss giving notice because he was going travelling. Works his notice goes off for 6 months.
gets home sees they've been paying him
goes into work
letter still in the bosses in tray 7 months later
picks it out and gets back to work

n97 mini

They were paying him for 6 months and didn't notice he wasn't there? He mustn't have a terribly important job!

LXFlyer

kidneyfan wrote: »

Friend of a friend worked for Irish rail. Sent a letter to his boss giving notice because he was going travelling. Works his notice goes off for 6 months.
gets home sees they've been paying him
goes into work
letter still in the bosses in tray 7 months later
picks it out and gets back to work

I find that VERY difficult to believe.

mickydoomsux

kidneyfan wrote: »

Friend of a friend worked for Irish rail. Sent a letter to his boss giving notice because he was going travelling. Works his notice goes off for 6 months.
gets home sees they've been paying him
goes into work
letter still in the bosses in tray 7 months later
picks it out and gets back to work

This didn't happen at all.

Wild Garlic

kidneyfan wrote: »

Friend of a friend worked for Irish rail. Sent a letter to his boss giving notice because he was going travelling. Works his notice goes off for 6 months.
gets home sees they've been paying him
goes into work
letter still in the bosses in tray 7 months later
picks it out and gets back to work

Find out his staff number I'll check it out...

MGWR

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/state-under-pressure-to-put-rail-services-up-for-tender-1.2301270

We have support from some other member states which is a good thing I suppose.

Only Germany's support counts in the EU.

And this is not "competition", of course.

kidneyfan

Irish rail must be the only crowd in Europe who regard 10 minutes late as on time. Can we get Swissrail to run the trains please?

end of the road

kidneyfan wrote: »

Irish rail must be the only crowd in Europe who regard 10 minutes late as on time. Can we get Swissrail to run the trains please?

i believe timetable padding is also done in the UK?

Victor

end of the road wrote: »

i believe timetable padding is also done in the UK?

Every railway adds time - otherwise, the timetable would go to bits with track work or leaf fall. I think the UIC recommends 7%. Irish Rail adds extra time and still can't make it.

If trains bothered to depart on time on-time statistics would be helped.

Infini

kidneyfan wrote: »

Friend of a friend worked for Irish rail. Sent a letter to his boss giving notice because he was going travelling. Works his notice goes off for 6 months.
gets home sees they've been paying him
goes into work
letter still in the bosses in tray 7 months later
picks it out and gets back to work

Yeèeeeeeeeah...... I'd take this with a pinch of salt tbh you cant go missing from ANY job for that long without someone noticing.

Infini

shodge wrote: »

If you remember the bus strike a few months ago on the buses, one of the reasons for the strike was the transfer of drivers to private companies that would be taking over the 10%.
As a result of the strike zero drivers will be transferring to private operators, in effect TUPE does not apply to the bus drivers in CIE.
The bus drivers are in the same unions as those who work in IE, so you can bet the farm that the same will apply to them, no one will be transferring.
Any talk of privatising any of the CIE operations is only talk, it won’t be happening.
If a operator wants to take over they must have their own staff, it would take months to recruit and train them, all the time they would be getting paid but not working, waiting for the day the private operator took over.
The government would have to be giving the private operators massive amount of money for free to pay the wages of these workers who would be not working, and that ain’t going to happen.
When you see the government coming in with offers of redundancy and fixing the pension hole in CIE, then you know privatising is a runner, until then its talk, nothing will happen.

To put a comparison the irish rail network is a hornby train set compared to the rail networks in england and europe. Its tiny and uses a unique rail gauge.

In addition noone will allow themselves to be signed up to Tupe agreements of any kind after the greyhound fiasco. Theyve been shown as worthless so why would anyone agree to them after that?

Also a key question is HOW would it be of any benefit to the irish public to even tender the rail thats lossmaking overall and run in large sections for the public interest? What do they get exactly? And what about the staff as well what happens to them? What do they get out of it if costs are not being reduced by forcing down wages which would be the 1st reason why there would be outright opposition from them to tendering?

Nermal

Infini2 wrote: »

Also a key question is HOW would it be of any benefit to the irish public to even tender the rail thats lossmaking overall and run in large sections for the public interest? What do they get exactly? And what about the staff as well what happens to them? What do they get out of it if costs are not being reduced by forcing down wages which would be the 1st reason why there would be outright opposition from them to tendering?

Forcing down conditions/wages and closing lossmaking business units is the whole point of the exercise. Of course it's cloaked in other terms. The savings/efficiencies are then split between customers and the franchisees (if the government structures it right, mostly to the former).

Might take a government throwing cash at existing workers to get them to leave, might take a bit of facing down of industrial action if the EU give the government some spine. We can only hope so; one day the rest of the transport network might be run as efficiently as the Luas.

end of the road

Nermal wrote: »

Forcing down conditions/wages and closing lossmaking business units is the whole point of the exercise.

didn't work out in britain.

Nermal wrote: »

Of course it's cloaked in other terms. The savings/efficiencies are then split between customers and the franchisees (if the government structures it right, mostly to the former).

how. what efficientsies and savings were got in the UK for example?

Nermal wrote: »

Might take a government throwing cash at existing workers to get them to leave, might take a bit of facing down of industrial action if the EU give the government some spine.

the government have spine. i should hope any attempt to "face down" any genuine industrial action will be met with a hard fight back from those taking industrial action.

Nermal wrote: »

We can only hope so; one day the rest of the transport network might be run as efficiently as the Luas.

we cannot hope so. luas isn't as efficient as made out due to having to run on streets in the city and having to stop at traffic lights. anyway our transport is as efficient as it can be within its operations and constraints.

shodge

Nermal wrote: »

Forcing down conditions/wages and closing lossmaking business units is the whole point of the exercise. Of course it's cloaked in other terms. The savings/efficiencies are then split between customers and the franchisees (if the government structures it right, mostly to the former).

Might take a government throwing cash at existing workers to get them to leave, might take a bit of facing down of industrial action if the EU give the government some spine. We can only hope so; one day the rest of the transport network might be run as efficiently as the Luas.

Its not going to happen no matter how much some wish for it.
The greyhound fiasco has for all intents and purposes killed TUPE in Ireland, you would need to be thick to believe it is a good deal for you to transferred to a new employee, a year and one day later they can change pay/conditions. Why would you take that risk?

The CIE bus drivers after the strike got a agreement that they will not be transferred under TUPE, so TUPE does not apply to them, Train staff are in the same unions as DB/BE. No doubt they will get the same agreement if push comes to shove.

So all that leaves is for the government to buy out the staff with a redundancy package, how can they sell this as saving the tax payer money with privatisation?
The redundancy payments would be in the hundreds of millions, it would take decades for the newly privatised service to break even after that.
It looks like Irish water is going to bleed any spare money out of the government for the next few years, that has/will put the public off privatising CIE when they realise it will cost a fortune.
Its a non runner, cost too much money for zero real gain.

kidneyfan

Victor wrote: »

Every railway adds time - otherwise, the timetable would go to bits with track work or leaf fall. I think the UIC recommends 7%. Irish Rail adds extra time and still can't make it.

If trains bothered to depart on time on-time statistics would be helped.

I was in Basel and the train was 15 minutes late and people started crying!

LXFlyer

kidneyfan wrote: »

I was in Basel and the train was 15 minutes late and people started crying!

Swiss trains tend to have longer station dwell times at major stations which does offer them greater chance of running to time.