Nissan Leaf

Calahonda52

DrPhilG wrote: »

Isn't that accepted as irrelevant now?

Purely from an engineering design background perspective, I would suggest it being good practice even if the blurb says its "no longer an issue".
No " proof" being offered, just an opinion.
Fast charge is a bit like wham bam thanks mam

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

Isn't that accepted as irrelevant now?

Only while the battery does not get frequently near the red. The current model 24 Kwh Leaf only allows 45 Kw charging until only about 50% charge. But multiple fast charging in a day can cause it to heat up near the red.

The 30 Kwh heats up faster probably due to the fact it allows 45 Kw all the way to 80%. The effects of this are unknown yet but indications in the U.S suggest it suffers the same level of degradation as the current 24 Kwh in hot environments so with the 30 Kwh you might need to be a bit more cautious if it's getting hotter on the fast charger.

None of these effects become known for some time so it's good to be more careful if you intend to keep it long term.

A U.K taxi had covered 100,000 miles and lost something like 9% battery with a huge amount of fast charges, I'll see if I can dig up the article. But this is an amazing improvement compared to the original battery which could see 1 bar lost by 80,000 kms and half the amount of fast charges this taxi had.

The L2 charges are counted x 2 due to a firmware bug, I don't know if this has been fixed. So I think it's safe to assume that for a 24 Kwh Leaf you can half the amount of L2 charges that leaf spy reports.

Calahonda52

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Purely from an engineering design background perspective, I would suggest it being good practice even if the blurb says its "no longer an issue".
No " proof" being offered, just an opinion.
Fast charge is a bit like wham bam thanks mam

No the Leaf manual does not say it's irrelevant at all. It's just a lot less relevant than it was on the original leaf battery.

Couple of factors "could" be involved, improved cycle life , heat resistance and "C" capability, C being the amount of current it can take in and out and/or a combination of them all. Just small changes can have a huge impact.

For instance , if you have a 10 Ah battery with a 1C discharge and 0.5 C charge rating then it should not charge at more than 5 amps and discharge at more than 10 amps.

A 2 C discharge and 1C charge rate means it should not discharge at more than 20 Amps and charge at more than 10 amps and so on.

Villain

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Purely from an engineering design background perspective, I would suggest it being good practice even if the blurb says its "no longer an issue".
No " proof" being offered, just an opinion.
Fast charge is a bit like wham bam thanks mam

There are a few studies on this, one in the UK that I can't find link to at present and another in the US https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/vehiclebatteries/FastChargeEffects.pdf

The impact on Battery from using Fast Charging is very little but this myth still seems to be flying around the place and like above usually without proof

KCross

I think the only concern with rapid charging is the higher risk of heat damage. I think it is generally accepted that heat is a battery killer and several rapid charges in one day will take the temp to the "red" zone. If that is done regularly then the battery could be affected. If you never overheat the battery then the rapid charge probably has no discernible effect.

Looking at LeafSpy and seeing alot of rapid charges wont tell you if the battery got hot but a degraded battery along with a lot of rapid charges would be things to look for when buying second hand.

Its not an exact science of course, nor is buying an ICE!

Villain

KCross wrote: »

I think the only concern with rapid charging is the higher risk of heat damage. I think it is generally accepted that heat is a battery killer and several rapid charges in one day will take the temp to the "red" zone. If that is done regularly then the battery could be affected. If you never overheat the battery then the rapid charge probably has no discernible effect.

Looking at LeafSpy and seeing alot of rapid charges wont tell you if the battery got hot but a degraded battery along with a lot of rapid charges would be things to look for when buying second hand.

Its not an exact science of course, nor is buying an ICE!

Can't see it being an issue in Ireland tbh

KCross

Villain wrote: »

Can't see it being an issue in Ireland tbh

What exactly?

Its relatively easy to put the battery in the red in Ireland. 2 or 3 rapid charges and you are there.

DrPhilG

KCross wrote: »

What exactly?

Its relatively easy to put the battery in the red in Ireland. 2 or 3 rapid charges and you are there.

On the 30kw version maybe.

I drove from Cork to Donegal via Dublin with probably 7 FCPs en route and only hit the high temp zone at Monaghan which I think was my 6th charge.

KCross

DrPhilG wrote: »

On the 30kw version maybe.

I drove from Cork to Donegal via Dublin with probably 7 FCPs en route and only hit the high temp zone at Monaghan which I think was my 6th charge.

Its harder to do on the 24kWh alright. Mine went to temp bar 9 after 4 rapid charges when I brought it back from the UK(<10C at the time) and was doing an indicated 75mph most of the way. So, you have to push it hard to make it happen on a 24kWh.

It would happen faster if it was in the summer and the battery was warm to start with.


The 30kWh seems to be much easier to hit red due to its faster charge speed. Maybe 2 rapids?

Villain

KCross wrote: »

What exactly?

Its relatively easy to put the battery in the red in Ireland. 2 or 3 rapid charges and you are there.

Because we don't have that many FCPs and our climate is isn't warm so the number of cars that would be doing enough FCPs in a short space of time to do that would be very very small imo.

I'm not saying it can't be done but the whole myth about FCP charging making a big impact on battery performance is exactly that, a myth and there are proper studies to show it.

KCross

Villain wrote: »

Because we don't have that many FCPs and our climate is isn't warm so the number of cars that would be doing enough FCPs in a short space of time to do that would be very very small imo.

I'm not saying it can't be done but the whole myth about FCP charging making a big impact on battery performance is exactly that, a myth and there are proper studies to show it.

True. I'd say the chance of finding a Leaf with a bad battery are very small.

Unless it's an original leaf then the chances are a lot higher, though "bad" only means unsuitable for your needs.

The Current 24 Kwh gen limits current on the fast charger and also regen to so by 50% it's not really fast charging any more.

What will get it warmer much faster is charging from a lower 0-45% % at which point it's charging at max current.

Heat is key, don't get it near the red frequently and it will be fine. There are a good few things to effect battery life other than fast charging.

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

Its harder to do on the 24kWh alright. Mine went to temp bar 9 after 4 rapid charges when I brought it back from the UK(<10C at the time) and was doing an indicated 75mph most of the way. So, you have to push it hard to make it happen on a 24kWh.

It would happen faster if it was in the summer and the battery was warm to start with.


The 30kWh seems to be much easier to hit red due to its faster charge speed. Maybe 2 rapids?

It all depends, what I have noticed is there is a wide variety of software in the FCPs and hence the throttle back current can be very different from FCP to FCP.

where the taper is significant , on the 30 kwh , one heat bar is typically gained in any FCP session , virtually regardless of amount and termination point.

Where the taper is not as significant, two heat bars can sometimes be gained

hence starting at 5 heat bars typical currently with ambients of 11 degree plus , would require you to loose a heat bar on each journey segment or you would be limited to about 4 FCP sessions and nine heat bars

I find that a speed at 90km/h or under is needed to reduce a heat bar by one

I've never experienced "throttling" at a DC point.

Bear in mind power going to the battery will also vary depending on temperature.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I've never experienced "throttling" at a DC point.

Bear in mind power going to the battery will also vary depending on temperature.

I have not maintained a consistent log on this , but for example I have seen the 30 Kwh charge at 89% at 20 kW, and equally charge at 82% at 10-12 kW, each time with 6 bars of heat

I have noticed that this varies across charger models

The car commands the charger via a can bus interface to throttle the charge into the battery ( LI does not have a " natural " reduction in charge acceptance rates as its fills , unlike lead acid )

presumably the car uses a combination of desired charge profile and battery heat to decide on the charge taper required . This would be similar to all conventional Li charger strategies

However the actual charge rate is set by the charger software , and it seems that there is a clear difference between models ( and I suspect software versions , as later EFacec models seem to be more compliant in reducing taper )

I thought you were implying deliberate throttling by the ESB.

Remember the temperature does vary a lot 6 bars could be for instance, ( I don't have the exact figures) anywhere from 18-25 degrees and 5 bars could be 8-22 degrees.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I thought you were implying deliberate throttling by the ESB.

Remember the temperature does vary a lot 6 bars could be for instance, ( I don't have the exact figures) anywhere from 18-25 degrees and 5 bars could be 8-22 degrees.

The ESB are throttling EVs thats for sure

grogi

BoatMad wrote: »

The ESB are throttling EVs thats for sure

It's pathetic that it happens so soon into the EV revolution...

isnottheword

BoatMad wrote: »

The ESB are throttling EVs thats for sure

What's the rationale here? Is it that they struggle locally to manage demand in the immediate vicinity??

Water John

It's a classic struggle for future control of a new market.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

The ESB are throttling EVs thats for sure

I don't think so.....

isnottheword

isnottheword wrote: »

What's the rationale here? Is it that they struggle locally to manage demand in the immediate vicinity??

They are not throttling people.

This started when the ESB installed the first of the triple headed DC chargers that displayed the output of the charger in kw.

People were seeing the chargers capable of 45 kw at a low charge % then seeing 30-35 Kw at 50% . Charging cold batteries would see less power.

They were adding 2 and 2 and getting 5.

MK I leaf owners with degraded batteries would also see reduced power.

Perhaps where there would be 4+ chargers on one site, Tesla apply load balancing at super chargers. The ESB don't need to with Most ev's on the road MK I and 1.5 Leafs, they throttle themselves !

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

They are not throttling people.

This started when the ESB installed the first of the triple headed DC chargers that displayed the output of the charger in kw.

People were seeing the chargers capable of 45 kw at a low charge % then seeing 30-35 Kw at 50% . Charging cold batteries would see less power.

They were adding 2 and 2 and getting 5.

MK I leaf owners with degraded batteries would also see reduced power.

Perhaps where there would be 4+ chargers on one site, Tesla apply load balancing at super chargers. The ESB don't need to with Most ev's on the road MK I and 1.5 Leafs, they throttle themselves !

err - I was speaking metaphorically :pac:

oh right.....

Soarer

Had another look at the drls and foglights this morning, and I've attached pictures of same.

So the drl bulb is there, and it appears the socket for it is there too.
But if you look closely at the socket, there seems to be a blue surround towards the back of it that stops the bulbs sitting all the way in and the contacts touching (see connector and bulb picture).
My only option (I'd imagine) is to remove a chunk of the bulb housing so the blue surround doesn't come into play. But I don't have a Dremmel, or a fine tooth saw, to allow me do it.
So the next best thing is to source LED replacements for the H8 foglight, and leave them on as drls.

Unless anyone else has any ideas?

Soarer

Shur I may as well keep this thread alive!

My high beam replacement bulbs arrived this morning. Got them from Amazon.



Slotted straight in without issue. Slightly different colour to the original LEDs, but miles better than the halogen ones they replaced.

My replacement for the faulty side light LED arrived today too. That too slotted in without issue or blowing a fuse! :rolleyes:

Ordered replacement fog lights last night as they're really letting the side down now. Also ordered some interior bulbs for the dome lights and stuff. We'll see how we get on with them.

Mope

Is there an external light or indicator you can look at to see if Leaf is charging or charged or whatever status it is in?

In situations where you see Leaf parked "charging" how can I know if it is indeed charging?

Well done Soarer. Nice project there :-) Any pics how good it is in the dark? :P

I am loving my LED lights, was a bit disappointed that only the main beam is LED but it is AWESOME!

TBi

Mope wrote: »

Is there an external light or indicator you can look at to see if Leaf is charging or charged or whatever status it is in?

There are lights on the top of the dash just inside the windscreen. Plus most of the charging pillars will tell you the status real time.

Soarer

Mope wrote: »

Well done Soarer. Nice project there :-) Any pics how good it is in the dark? :P

I am loving my LED lights, was a bit disappointed that only the main beam is LED but it is AWESOME!

Cheers mope.

Only changed them at lunchtime there while having a quick charge. Will take pics later.

Balmed Out

Sorry for my ignorance but I have an acenta so no LED lights, what is the point / benefit of them?