New changes to regulations from 1st Sep dilemma

stickybookmark

kceire wrote: »

You didn't have to submit anything of the sort to any local authority.
Before BCAR, the certificate of compliance remained with the owner. They may have had to be submitted to the banks for final payment or mortgage draw down but The council did not require a copy of any certification.

It must just be the Land registry and the bank that required/will require a copy of it then.

sydthebeat

stickybookmark wrote: »

It must just be the Land registry and the bank that required/will require a copy of it then.

Nope, land registry couldn't give a crap about a cert of compliance.

Banks have learnt in the mean time that they aren't worth the paper their written on either, if they are visual final inspection only.

Gumbo

stickybookmark wrote: »

It must just be the Land registry and the bank that required/will require a copy of it then.

Land registry never required them either.

stickybookmark

kceire wrote: »

Land registry never required them either.

Oh right. A builder told me there were 2 certs on completion in pre-Bcar world:
- cert of compliance with the planning permission
- cert of identity for the land registry

How will the government know to charge someone property tax so if their house is never registered with the land registry

stickybookmark

sydthebeat wrote: »

Nope, land registry couldn't give a crap about a cert of compliance.

Banks have learnt in the mean time that they aren't worth the paper their written on either, if they are visual final inspection only.

When a pre-Bcar house is sold does anyone come out and double check the cert of compliance was genuine/reflected reality so?

Gumbo

stickybookmark wrote: »

Oh right. A builder told me there were 2 certs on completion in pre-Bcar world:
- cert of compliance with the planning permission
- cert of identity for the land registry

How will the government know to charge someone property tax so if their house is never registered with the land registry

Nothing got to do with the council or planning though. Property tax is a self registration process. Registration with land registry is a different and totally separate process to the planning process.

stickybookmark wrote: »

When a pre-Bcar house is sold does anyone come out and double check the cert of compliance was genuine/reflected reality so?

Yes, the guy who supervised and provided the cert for the home owner/builder or the surveyor for the purchaser.

kaff

Hi, I dont have all the 'building jargon' in relation to building a house BUT quick question...we have just started to buld our new house, 2700sq ft I think!! After digging the Foundation out, Engineer said that the soil under the sun room is soft so instead of 18" of concrete - he has advised 24" of concrete! Number of builders/advisors are saying that, 24" is mad and the Enginner is only convering himself - any advice please as to what we can do?? Thanks

Strolling Bones

Do what the engineer says.

DOCARCH

kaff wrote: »

Number of builders/advisors are saying that, 24" is mad and the Enginner is only convering himself - any advice please as to what we can do?? Thanks

Your engineer is the only one qualified to give the correct answer.

Calahonda52

Its the engineer's call, period.
It is his PI thats on the line, not your armchair experts who have NO financial liability if wrong.

However, I suspect you have misunderstood what the 24" means.

What exactly do you understand by the 24"

Gumbo

kaff wrote: »

Number of builders/advisors are saying that, 24" is mad and the Enginner is only convering himself - any advice please as to what we can do?? Thanks

Ask those advisors to give you the design and to stand over it, certify it with their PI insurance, and then see how many of those advisors will still give you advice.

Do what your engineer says.

kaff

but would one not know from experience what is the standard requirement?

kaff

See this is what I mean, you quote 'stand over it' - at the end of the day, is the engineer just covering himself - what about the extra cost for us?

Gumbo

kaff wrote: »

but would one not know from experience what is the standard requirement?

There is no standard requirement when it comes to soft ground. Go build it to your advisors detail and see who will sign off on it and who you will,chase in 6 months when your house starts sinking like a ship that has just hit an ice berg!

kaff wrote: »

See this is what I mean, you quote 'stand over it' - at the end of the day, is the engineer just covering himself - what about the extra cost for us?

The extra cost to you was exposed by the possible lack of site assessment prior to construction, where you may have been able to reduce the footprint to suit your budget (subject to planning of course).

These things happen, the engineer is not just increasing the depth of your foundation just to "cover himself".

sydthebeat

you are ALWAYS free to pay for a second opinion

mickdw

In the past I tended to walk away from client's like this. If there are too many advisors on the job, it is a nightmare plus if the client is querying structural designs based on what the neighbour leaning over the fence is saying, in general those are the type of clients who will never comply with any of the regulations in force since around 2008.

Strolling Bones

kaff wrote: »

See this is what I mean, you quote 'stand over it' - at the end of the day, is the engineer just covering himself - what about the extra cost for us?

If you behaved like this with me you would quickly be in need of another certifier.

overshoot

kaff wrote: »

but would one not know from experience what is the standard requirement?

different ground conditions have different requirements. The engineer is "covering himself" by redesigning the foundation, making it fit for purpose for poorer conditions than expected. Surely he would have used this design from the start if he was just throwing out any safe foundation spec?
foundations are the very LAST area you want to even consider skimping on. Think what that will cost you if it isnt fit for purpose.

Strolling Bones

overshoot wrote: »

Think what that will cost you if it isnt fit for purpose.

Thats what the engineers insurance is for - right kaff?
He gets paid the big bucks for that.

kaff

Thank you all for your advice!!! I presume you are mostly Engineers. We are going for the second opionion and at the end of the day - we won't be skimping on the foundations but it's dissapointing to have the extra cost as well as the Engineers 'STANDARD' RIP OFF FEES!!!!

BryanF

Kaff have a bit more cop-on than to slag your fellow board members liveyhoods, while thanking your fellow board members for their help with your questions

Strolling Bones

Kaff

1. You will pay for a real life second opinion - you got ours free here.

2. Perhaps you prefer advice from the untrained and you can get that here free too if you wait long enough. Someone is bound sooner or later to post here to agree with your real life non certifying engineer advisors. Perhaps we should leave you to the likes of them if you choose to continue to post here.

3 You seem stressed now. Keep it up and you won't make it to wall plate.

stickybookmark

kaff wrote: »

Hi, I dont have all the 'building jargon' in relation to building a house BUT quick question...we have just started to buld our new house, 2700sq ft I think!! After digging the Foundation out, Engineer said that the soil under the sun room is soft so instead of 18" of concrete - he has advised 24" of concrete! Number of builders/advisors are saying that, 24" is mad and the Enginner is only convering himself - any advice please as to what we can do?? Thanks

Try to look on the positive side at least it was identified on time to do something about it.
My engineer did a site suitability test before any work commenced and from that he said it was suitable for 'standard' foundations. I'm guessing your eng did the same but then discovered the soil under 1 particular area is different to where he did the pre-commencement soil test?

kaff

Just letting off 'bit of steam' re Engineers Fees - didn't personalize it in anyway!!

Yes, it was under the sun room that the problem with the soil is. And yes, thankfully we have got it in time. And yes, maybe a bit stressed out but more so for my husband, even though he's remaining calm, just feel sorry for him that his guesstimated budget has rocketed ALREADY!!!

We haven't given grief to the engineer in any form but glad we got a second opinion.

Strolling Bones

kaff wrote: »

Just letting off 'bit of steam' re Engineers Fees - didn't personalize it in anyway!!

Agreed

the Engineers 'STANDARD' RIP OFF FEES!!!!

Is pretty indescriminate

kaff wrote: »

And yes, thankfully we have got it in time.

Your engineer caught it in time and you are not a bit thankful to him/her but you should be.

kaff wrote: »

just feel sorry for him that his guesstimated budget has rocketed ALREADY!!!

What's wrong that that pitcure .....

kaff wrote: »

We haven't given grief to the engineer in any form but glad we got a second opinion.

Nor should you have and you are showing lousy faith here.

.

Gumbo

kaff wrote: »

Just letting off 'bit of steam' re Engineers Fees - didn't personalize it in anyway!!

Did you agree fees before you started? Its these things why you ahve the engineer in the first place!

kaff wrote: »

Yes, it was under the sun room that the problem with the soil is. And yes, thankfully we have got it in time.

Your Engineer should be thanked, all you did was question him after he found a problem.

kaff wrote: »

my husband, even though he's remaining calm, just feel sorry for him that his guesstimated budget has rocketed ALREADY!!!

How have his figures rocketed already? How did he come up with his original figure?

kaff wrote: »

We haven't given grief to the engineer in any form but glad we got a second opinion.

What did the second opinion contain? Who did you get it from?

Anyway, best of luck with your build. If you want advice in the future, you may very well have to respect the content that people on here post or they will very quickly ignore you, and there are many people on here with a wealth of knowledge that can help you in so many ways.

sydthebeat

just one short comment, if going from 18" to 24" in a concrete foundation has caused the "guesstimated" budget to sky rocket... says more about the initial guesstimate than anything else.

the foundations are the least expensive element of structure, so i hope the maths have been done properly on the above ground works!!

kaff

Thanks for all your advice - I do appreciate same and apologies if anyone was offended - not intended. Anyhow, looks like I better sign off cos maybe I dont have enough info to warrant what I am trying to say and obviously causing offence but not intentional.

BryanF

kaff wrote: »

Thanks for all your advice - I do appreciate same and apologies if anyone was offended - not intended. Anyhow, looks like I better sign off cos maybe I dont have enough info to warrant what I am trying to say and obviously causing offence but not intentional.

Kaff
You are welcome to ask questions, I mean that sincerely.

Perhaps read the forum charter http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055036302

Welcome to the C&P forum

Gumbo

kaff wrote: »

Thanks for all your advice - I do appreciate same and apologies if anyone was offended - not intended. Anyhow, looks like I better sign off cos maybe I dont have enough info to warrant what I am trying to say and obviously causing offence but not intentional.

Don't sign off. Get the info and come back. You will learn from it too
Take photos of your build. It might help you if you share them or create a thread of your own and you can put them all in one place for when it's complete.

galwaytt

kaff wrote: »

Hi, I dont have all the 'building jargon' in relation to building a house BUT quick question...we have just started to buld our new house, 2700sq ft I think!! After digging the Foundation out, Engineer said that the soil under the sun room is soft so instead of 18" of concrete - he has advised 24" of concrete! Number of builders/advisors are saying that, 24" is mad and the Enginner is only convering himself - any advice please as to what we can do?? Thanks

Whilst that it is more than likely true to an extent, more importantly he's covering YOU.

I assume you don't want the sunroom to move/subside etc, right....... ??

cmd12

for anyone in louth i was just talking to the local council and the advised me to hold off for a few days until system is updated.
don't know if this applies to all counties but might be worth checking as i was told it could go in on the old system.
the minister is only signing this today so it may take a few days to update the system i was told.
forewarned is forearmed

Gumbo

cmd12 wrote: »

for anyone in louth i was just talking to the local council and the advised me to hold off for a few days until system is updated.
don't know if this applies to all counties but might be worth checking as i was told it could go in on the old system.
the minister is only signing this today so it may take a few days to update the system i was told.
forewarned is forearmed

It's the same throughout the country.
Minister is supposed to be signing the legislation this afternoon and then the relaxed regulations are in force from 1st Sept onwards.

How the LA deals with the applications will be their job to figure out. It may be arcade of manual applications and the admin teams will have to manually enter the details.

cmd12

okie dokie thanks for that
we will see where it all leads us

Strolling Bones

cmd12 wrote: »

okie dokie thanks for that
we will see where it all leads us

FG get swept back into government on a wave of self building gratitude

stickybookmark

kceire wrote: »

It's the same throughout the country.
Minister is supposed to be signing the legislation this afternoon and then the relaxed regulations are in force from 1st Sept onwards.

How the LA deals with the applications will be their job to figure out. It may be arcade of manual applications and the admin teams will have to manually enter the details.

Thought the online BCMS was a Nationwide system?

galwaytt

Strolling Bones wrote: »

FG get swept back into government on a wave of self building gratitude

Ha, LOL, there's not THAT many one offs being built...........they're going to need a bigger boat vote.........

Gumbo

stickybookmark wrote: »

Thought the online BCMS was a Nationwide system?

It is.
But a manual operating procedure will be down to each LA until the BCMS system has been updated for the new regulations I would imagine.

Remember that each LA's interpretation of the BCA is still up to itself. Some LA's were using the cumulative areas for long and short forms and some weren't since SI9.

Gumbo

Both documents attched

DOCARCH

One slightly bizarre bit in those advice notes from the DECLG...see Section 3.5 where it says:

Homeowners should weigh up carefully the implications of a decision to
opt out of the statutory certification process....

...and...

Homeowners should appraise themselves of any potential cost or other implications that may arise as a result of choosing to opt out of the statutory certification process. Prior to deciding on whether or not to avail of the opt out option, it is recommended that a homeowner should consult with their solicitor.

I wonder what the DECLG are trying to suggest by these statements! The use of the word 'implications' is a little sinister?

Don't come back to us if you find out in 10 years that your home/home with extension is worth less if you do 'opt out' of full certification?

cmd12

It's just a question , I've had a quick glance through, and I've two quick questions
If I get my house certified at 3 stages let's say
stage 1 :foundations poured , , dead building in
Stage 2 : wall plate level and roof on before windows are in
Stage 3 : complete as most of the other parts will be able to be vied from this stage

Does this still now class as a certified house?

And

What does section 3.2 part c mean?

A homeowner who wishes to avail of this facility must sign a form of “Declaration of Intention to Opt Out of Statutory Certification” which may be obtained online via the BCMS or from the local building control authority. This form must accompany the documents submitted to the building control authority when notifying them that works are about to commence which will include the following:-
(a) a Commencement Notice and the relevant fee of €30 per building;
(b) a Declaration of Intention to opt out of Statutory Certification, signed by
the building owner;
(c) such plans, calculations, specifications and particulars as are necessary
to outline how the proposed dwelling house or domestic extension will comply with the relevant requirements of the Second Schedule to the Building Regulations; These will typically include -
(i) general arrangement drawings,
(ii) a schedule of compliance documents, as designed or to be prepared at a later date,
(iii) the BCMS assessment of the proposed approach to compliance, normally completed online,
(d) a Notice of Assignment of

My apologies for a long post if the moderator wishes to edit this or remove I understand

DOCARCH

cmd12 wrote: »

If I get my house certified at 3 stages let's say
stage 1 :foundations poured , , dead building in
Stage 2 : wall plate level and roof on before windows are in
Stage 3 : complete as most of the other parts will be able to be vied from this stage

Does this still now class as a certified house?

It does, if an Assigned Certifier is willing to sign off/certify (absolute) compliance with all parts of the Building Regulations based on just 3 visits.

The reality is that no Assigned Certifier (in their right mind) would/could sign off/certify (absolute) compliance based on 3 visits. A minimum of 10 visits (or more) would be required (in my opinion).

mickdw

cmd12 wrote: »

It's just a question , I've had a quick glance through, and I've two quick questions
If I get my house certified at 3 stages let's say
stage 1 :foundations poured , , dead building in
Stage 2 : wall plate level and roof on before windows are in
Stage 3 : complete as most of the other parts will be able to be vied from this stage

Does this still now class as a certified house?

And

What does section 3.2 part c mean?

A homeowner who wishes to avail of this facility must sign a form of “Declaration of Intention to Opt Out of Statutory Certification” which may be obtained online via the BCMS or from the local building control authority. This form must accompany the documents submitted to the building control authority when notifying them that works are about to commence which will include the following:-
(a) a Commencement Notice and the relevant fee of €30 per building;
(b) a Declaration of Intention to opt out of Statutory Certification, signed by
the building owner;
(c) such plans, calculations, specifications and particulars as are necessary
to outline how the proposed dwelling house or domestic extension will comply with the relevant requirements of the Second Schedule to the Building Regulations; These will typically include -
(i) general arrangement drawings,
(ii) a schedule of compliance documents, as designed or to be prepared at a later date,
(iii) the BCMS assessment of the proposed approach to compliance, normally completed online,
(d) a Notice of Assignment of

My apologies for a long post if the moderator wishes to edit this or remove I understand

In order to go the way you describe with a new build, you will be signing the opt out cert at commencement so no, it will not be a certified house in terms of having a compliance cert lodged on file with the council on completion. It will however be certified as to a standard similar to all houses up to march 2014 if not better. You will be bound to submit building drawings on commencement, You will be bound to submit BER details showing compliance with Part L etc. If you have the Engineer on board for the duration, he will issue opinion on compliance as has always been issued and as such I dont see the issue with sales or anything. The only thing that will unsettle this arrangement is if the banks decide to require full certification. Just on a side note, the idea of the 3 inspections is abit of a fantasy. I have not been certifying works under the assigned certifier regime but am still involved in ongoing builds commenced prior to this and as long as Ive been doing this work, Ive never just visited a house 3 times. A current housing project, admittedly quite substantial needs very frequent visits.

cmd12

Understood it was just used as an example.
Thank you both for your help.

893bet

Edit. Missed a page of discussion. Never mind!

cmd12

Was talking to my local council and they said if i upload a signed copy of the (deceleration of intention to opt out of statutory certification) signed with all other documents regarding the 2 weeks notice to commence it "should" go through on the new legislation.
Ive rang the bcms to confirm this but i cant get anybody willing to answer the phone

Gumbo

cmd12 wrote: »

Was talking to my local council and they said if i upload a signed copy of the (deceleration of intention to opt out of statutory certification) signed with all other documents regarding the 2 weeks notice to commence it "should" go through on the new legislation.
Ive rang the bcms to confirm this but i cant get anybody willing to answer the phone

Do what your local building control dept tell you. They are the ones that validate it after all, not the BCMS.

cmd12

No problems, thank you again for the help
Typical Ireland its a minefield when something new comes out

sydthebeat

cmd12 wrote: »

No problems, thank you again for the help
Typical Ireland its a minefield when something new comes out

something new? nah

http://corporate.nca.ie/eng/Research_Zone/Reports/Home_Construction/NCA-Home-construction-Volume-5.pdf

the problem is they continually keep messing up their attempts to resolve the issues... due to the fact they continue to deny the glaring "elephant in the room" problems.

BryanF

sydthebeat wrote: »

something new? nah

http://corporate.nca.ie/eng/Research_Zone/Reports/Home_Construction/NCA-Home-construction-Volume-5.pdf

the problem is they continually keep messing up their attempts to resolve the issues... due to the fact they continue to deny the glaring "elephant in the room" problems.

Another 44 pages to read. With no resolution at the end😖