Leaked IAAf report on doping

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

I hope your OTT cynicism extends to other sports. Last 50 years you say? What about Bobby Charlton, Gary Lineker, Mario Kempes, Gerd Muller, Paulo Rossi, Pele? After all these guys played for countries that could better the likes of Poland who excelled during communist times, then disappeared from footballing relevance for a long time after.

Lineker never ran more than 2 yards:D

walshb

average_runner wrote: »

Lineker never ran more than 2 yards:D

Yes, but all that "doping" gave him a killer touch around the box!

overpronator

walshb wrote: »

Yes, but all that "doping" gave him a killer touch around the box!

Gave him a dose of the trots once too.

brocbrocach

Yeah why would the worlds biggest and best-paid sportsmen need to dope?
Endurance, speed, strength, ability to recover won't get you anywhere.

walshb

brocbrocach wrote: »

Yeah why would the worlds biggest and best-paid sportsmen need to dope?
Endurance, speed, strength, ability to recover won't get you anywhere.

In relation to soccer skill plays such an important part. Of course, doping will help, but it's not the same in all sports.

I mean, we were told here that the Greeks only won Euro 2004 because of doping. The team and its players were slated as not all that good at soccer, yet they won the tournament. That win was down to most likley doping. They won because of their endurance. I never heard such nonsense. Endurance and pace and speed and recovery all play a part, but in soceer, skill and scoring is usually the winner. The opposition all had skill and speed and ability and endurance as well, plus, listening to some, they had a a whole lot more soccer talent than Greece. So, sureley even if Greece were doping it doesn't really explain how they won. They won because they had the best tactics, and they were pretty good soccer players.

BTW, some of the best paid sportsmen have enough skill and talent and dedication, as well as character and integrity to not need to deceive and cheat....Ever think of that?

TRR_the_turd

walshb wrote: »

In relation to soccer skill plays such an important part. Of course, doping will help, but it's not the same in all sports.

I mean, we were told here that the Greeks only won Euro 2004 because of doping. The team and its players were slated as not all that good at soccer, yet they won the tournament. That win was down to most likley doping. They won because of their endurance. I never heard such nonsense. Endurance and pace and speed and recovery all play a part, but in soceer, skill and scoring is usually the winner. The opposition all had skill and speed and ability and endurance as well, plus, listening to some, they had a a whole lot more soccer talent than Greece. So, sureley even if Greece were doping it doesn't really explain how they won. They won because they had the best tactics, and they were pretty good soccer players.

BTW, some of the best paid sportsmen have enough skill and talent and dedication, as well as character and integrity to not need to deceive and cheat....Ever think of that?

I actually can't believe you are still heavily involved in this thread arguing over semantics. As someone else said to you back about 1000 posts ago

ThisRegard

walshb wrote: »

I never heard such nonsense. Endurance and pace and speed and recovery all play a part, but in soceer, skill and scoring is usually the winner.

Usually the winner, but in a long tournament doping is a big aid. No point in having the skill if you cant get to the ball quicker than the next guy.

Not that I'm saying Greece doped, but I do think club soccer teams have, probably still do.

walshb

ThisRegard wrote: »

Usually the winner, but in a long tournament doping is a big aid. No point in having the skill if you cant get to the ball quicker than the next guy.

Not that I'm saying Greece doped, but I do think club soccer teams have, probably still do.

I am sure soccer players have doped.

Relating to Greece, the only "evidence" presented was that they had endurance. That was the lame thing about it, as if this was tangible and verifiable. They also scored goals, early goals and late goals. They were a well organised outfit with home advatange and good football players.

Sometimes not always the more pouplar teams and skilled teams win. It takes a combination of so much to win these tournaments. In 2004 things clicked for Greece and they got over the line.

To tar the counry/team like that because they won a tournament is well off the mark.

walshb

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

I actually can't believe you are still heavily involved in this thread arguing over semantics. As someone else said to you back about 1000 posts ago

Well, don't stop believing, friend. I'm still here......Fighting the corner for the clean athletes of the world.......Onwards and upwards!

Chivito550

walshb wrote: »

I am sure soccer players have doped.

Relating to Greece, the only "evidence" presented was that they had endurance. That was the lame thing about it, as if this was tangible and verifiable. They also scored goals, early goals and late goals. They were a well organised outfit with home advatange and good football players.

Sometimes not always the more pouplar teams and skilled teams win. It takes a combination of so much to win these tournaments. In 2004 things clicked for Greece and they got over the line.

To tar the counry/team like that because they won a tournament is well off the mark.

Wrong. Portugal were the hosts, who Greece managed to beat on their own patch not once, but twice in those 3 weeks.

Endurance isn't the only evidence. 2004 was the dirtiest year in Greek sport. They hosted the Olympics that year and they had an enormous number of sportspeople across a huge range of sports come from nowhere to win medals, test positive either in 2004, or subsequently a few years later (Fani Halkia being a big one), along with staged motor cycle accidents etc. Greek sport in 2004 was completely tainted. Yet despite this, their footballers, the ones with the biggest potential financial reward, had the morality to not engage in what every other sport was doing that same year. Sure. Is it not a coincidence that Greece's greatest year in footballing history is the same year as Greece's dirtiest year in sport?

walshb

Chivito550 wrote: »

Wrong. Portugal were the hosts, who Greece managed to beat on their own patch not once, but twice in those 3 weeks.

Endurance isn't the only evidence. 2004 was the dirtiest year in Greek sport. They hosted the Olympics that year and they had an enormous number of sportspeople across a huge range of sports come from nowhere to win medals, test positive either in 2004, or subsequently a few years later (Fani Halkia being a big one), along with staged motor cycle accidents etc. Greek sport in 2004 was completely tainted. Yet despite this, their footballers, the best paid of all their sportspeople, had the morality to not engage in what every other sport was doing that same year. Sure. Is it not a coincidence that Greece's greatest year in footballing history is the same year as Greece's dirtiest year in sport?

Apologies. Was hosted in Portugal.

I do not think that doping was a reason, or one of them for Greece winning a soccer tournament. It requires far too much things to work out. And, even if they were doped it doesn't at all guarantee improvements, not when there are 23 or so players on squad. It's just not all that measurable. It also far fetched. Basing it off other athletes being caught cheating from their country is at best laughable.

I'd hate to get you as a judge. You'd hang someone based off the flimsiest of "evidence." And yes, endurance seems to be the only "evidence" pertinent to the soccer team. Presenting other sports and some other athletes from Greece as being found to have cheated as "evidence" to tar the soccer team is NOT evidence, although in your courtroom nothing would surprise me.

brocbrocach

walshb wrote: »

Apologies. Was hosted in Portugal.

I do not think that doping was a reason, or one of them for Greece winning a soccer tournament. It requires far too much things to work out. And, even if they were doped it doesn't at all guarantee improvements, not when there are 23 or so players on squad. It's just not all that measurable. It also far fetched. Basing it off other athletes being caught cheating from their country is at best laughable.

I'd hate to get you as a judge. You'd hang someone based off the flimsiest of "evidence." And yes, endurance seems to be the only "evidence" pertinent to the soccer team. Presenting other sports and some other athletes from Greece as being found to have cheated as "evidence" to tar the soccer team is NOT evidence, although in your courtroom nothing would surprise me.

Yes, (s)he's not a judge (I think, apologies if you are!) but just a person who can look at something and put 2 and 2 together.
Did you believe in Lance Armstrong btw? Took years for evidence to come out.
How about athletes from the Eastern Block in the 70s/80s?

I don't think it's a case of ethics either, when something is so institutionalised and normalised you would be in a minority to decide not to dope for sporting and financial rewards. If you were from a poor country and doping was the difference between playing in the money leagues or not you'd have to be a fool not to drink the Kool Aid.

Maybe there's really no point rehashing old arguments as none of us accept the other view and none of us have "evidence".

walshb

brocbrocach wrote: »

Yes, (s)he's not a judge (I think, apologies if you are!) but just a person who can look at something and put 2 and 2 together.
Did you believe in Lance Armstrong btw? Took years for evidence to come out.
How about athletes from the Eastern Block in the 70s/80s?

I don't think it's a case of ethics either, when something is so institutionalised and normalised you would be in a minority to decide not to dope for sporting and financial rewards. If you were from a poor country and doping was the difference between playing in the money leagues or not you'd have to be a fool not to drink the Kool Aid.

Maybe there's really no point rehashing old arguments as none of us accept the other view and none of us have "evidence".

Comapring LA and Eastern Bloc countries in the 70s and 80s to the Greek soccer team in 2004 is not all that safe. Every major drugs scandal can be separate to others.

LA and cycling has been going on for years with evidence being presented steadily until it all came out. The Greek soccer team have no evidence that I know of to come to the ridiculous conclusion that they doped their way to Euro 2004. As I said, using other Greeks as some sort of evidence is just bonkers. Like saying that because Marco Pantanai was linked to cheating that means LA cheated, or because Lance cheated that means Greg LeMond cheated. Let's analyse each case on its own merits.

brocbrocach

walshb wrote: »

Comapring LA and Eastern Bloc countries in the 70s and 80s to the Greek soccer team in 2004 is not all that safe. Every major drugs scandal can be separate to others.

LA and cycling has been going on for years with evidence being presented steadily until it all came out. The Greek soccer team have no evidence that I know of to come to the ridiculous conclusion that they doped their way to Euro 2004. As I said, using other Greeks as some sort of evidence is just bonkers. Like saying that because Marco Pantanai was linked to cheating that means LA cheated, or because Lance cheated that means Greg LeMond cheated. Let's analyse each case on its own merits.

I wasn't comparing the Greek footballers with LA and USSR athletes - I was making the point that you might be waiting a long long time to get this elusive evidence that something is dirty. If a tree falls in the forest but everyone has their ears covered ... did that tree fall?
Greece suddenly produced athletic and footballing results in 2004 that they hadn't managed ever before. For the most part the same people haven't done anything of note since either.
It's either fantastic luck or something more sinister. In the absence of anyone worthwhile producing evidence I'll place my faith in experience. Thumbs down for Greece.

We've gone well off-topic i think.

Itziger

Marita Koch, I remember her well. Never did fail a test mind.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/athletics/34454487

youngrun

Itziger wrote: »

Marita Koch, I remember her well. Never did fail a test mind.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/athletics/34454487

Some run https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIQZAq6J4ug

The Rape of Lucretia

Itziger wrote: »

Marita Koch, I remember her well. Never did fail a test mind.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/athletics/34454487

Yeh. Great runner. Clean as a whistle too. And able to beat Kratochvilova. Who was a man to anyone with eyes. Which is impressive.
Those were the overtly dirtiest days. Ah the innocence. Now its gone all so clever and under the radar. Sneakier. Dirtier really because it pretends to be so clean. That is what leaves the really unpleasant taste to all proceedings in athletics these days.

Chivito550

47.60 would have medaled at many an Irish Championship for men over the years.

menoscemo

Another doping scandal rocks sport. Is any sport clean any more?

Pherekydes

Not sport related. :mad:

menoscemo

Pherekydes wrote: »

Not sport related. :mad:

It's on the BBC Sport website and there's talk of 'Athletes' in the article

BBCSport wrote:

"All athletes adhere to the principle of strict liability. No matter what the circumstances, they are solely responsible for any prohibited substance found in their system," said Ukad legal director Graham Arthur.

"This can be challenging for athletes, as the onus falls to them to prove how, and why, their sample tested positive, and to show there was no significant fault."

walshb

I hope they never catch Garry Kasparov out. That will truly crush my belief in clean sport.

TRR_the_turd

walshb wrote: »

I hope they never catch Garry Kasparov out. That will truly crush my belief in clean sport.

A smart person who plans 10 moves ahead would never be caught for drug taking. They are much too smart for that. You need to be a bit of a twit to get caught IMO.

Chivito550

The only person I know to be 100% clean in any sport is myself. Anybody else I can't know for sure. That goes for all you punters running DCM on Monday. Impossible for me to know you are the real deal.

Pherekydes

menoscemo wrote: »

It's on the BBC Sport website and there's talk of 'Athletes' in the article

So nothing to do with Darts' players. :cool:

Ron Gomall

Chivito550 wrote: »

The only person I know to be 100% clean in any sport is myself. Anybody else I can't know for sure. That goes for all you punters running DCM on Monday. Impossible for me to know you are the real deal.

Does that include the "beer mile" cos I'm pretty sure that you would have tested positive for alcohol just after the race

Ron Gomall

menoscemo wrote: »

It's on the BBC Sport website and there's talk of 'Athletes' in the article

180 athletes involved

KielyUnusual

Chivito550 wrote: »

The only person I know to be 100% clean in any sport is myself. Anybody else I can't know for sure. That goes for all you punters running DCM on Monday. Impossible for me to know you are the real deal.

Where do you buy your beef?

walshb

Chivito550 wrote: »

The only person I know to be 100% clean in any sport is myself. Anybody else I can't know for sure. That goes for all you punters running DCM on Monday. Impossible for me to know you are the real deal.

Maybe that's why a casual soccer player trumps you on his grass pitch!:p

walshb

Chivito550 wrote: »

The only person I know to be 100% clean in any sport is myself. Anybody else I can't know for sure. That goes for all you punters running DCM on Monday. Impossible for me to know you are the real deal.

This is interesting. Can I just say that you cannot know for sure unless you are being tested? I know you like prescison, as I do, so am I right in saying that you cannot know unless you are passing tests? Add this to your own honesty and then you are clean. BTW, maybe you are being tested. I don't know.

Is it possible that casual athletes out there may have in their systems PEDs. Nothing at all intentional or deliberate, but in the very precise world of testing, their bodies could show up levels of PEDs, relating from whatever foods and liquids and vitamis they may be taking.

I guess that is why I have a lot of sympathy and understanding for the difficulties athletes face. They need to be so so careful, and they also, unfortunately, have to place a certain level of trust in others.

There are, and have been good and clean and honest athletes out there who have been let down, or who have failed tests when they were genuinely not intending to cheat.

Chivito550

walshb wrote: »

This is interesting. Can I just say that you cannot know for sure unless you are being tested? I know you like prescison, as I do, so am I right in saying that you cannot know unless you are passing tests? Add this to your own honesty and then you are clean. BTW, maybe you are being tested. I don't know.

Is it possible that casual athletes out there may have in their systems PEDs. Nothing at all intentional or deliberate, but in the very precise world of testing, their bodies could show up levels of PEDs, relating from whatever foods and liquids and vitamis they may be taking.

I guess that is why I have a lot of sympathy and understanding for the difficulties athletes face. They need to be so so careful, and they also, unfortunately, have to place a certain level of trust in others.

There are, and have been good and clean and honest athletes out there who have been let down, or who have failed tests when they were genuinely not intending to cheat.

Haha. Ah here, my comment was a bit of craic, that's all!

walshb

Chivito550 wrote: »

Haha. Ah here, my comment was a bit of craic, that's all!

Okey doke.

I was more thinking of the whole area of what can and cannot be in the body. The elites really need to be like machines to make sure they give themselves the best chance possible.

If it's worth anything, I believe you. You come across as a decent oul skin!:pac:

desertcircus

Pherekydes wrote: »

So nothing to do with Darts' players. :cool:

If golf is a sport, then darts is a sport. It's a contest of physical skill by any definition.

walshb

desertcircus wrote: »

If golf is a sport, then darts is a sport. It's a contest of physical skill by any definition.

As is chess!:eek:

Krusty_Clown

desertcircus wrote: »

If golf is a sport, then darts is a sport. It's a contest of physical skill by any definition.

Yeah, but is golf really a sport?

Chivito550

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Yeah, but is golf really a sport?

http://calorielab.com/burned/?mo=se&gr=15&ti=sports&q=&wt=150&un=lb&kg=68

Golf burns more calories than Shot Putt, Discus and Hammer Throw, Trampolining, and Gymnastics, all of which are considered sports, or events within a sport. It also burns close to the amount of calories as Baseball and Cricket. Personally, although I'm a shocking golfer and haven't played in years, I recall feeling physically drained at around hole 12, and my shots become noticeably poorer around this time of a round. Specific fitness is very important.

Also, coupled with the above, the actual skill levels required (Power, speed, co-ordination, balance etc) are very similar to other types of sport.

Critics use John Daly to try prove that golf is not a sport. This is a dated opinion. The sport has moved on. Physical fitness is a very important aspect of the modern game. Even at club level you will see gyms inside many golf clubs. In this day and age, if you are a fat chain smoker you probably aren't going to get very far.

As an aside, I've never heard anybody who actually enjoys the sport (watching or playing) say that it is not a sport. It usually comes from those who think it is boring to watch. Not in all cases, but as a general rule that seems to be the case.

walshb

In 2011 Darren Clarke won The Open. Says a lot about fitness and clean living being important. Not saying it's of no importance, but it's not that high up.

Fitness, as in cardio fitness may well help, but it is not a necessity for success in golf. Never will be. There are simply too many other permuations involved in the craziest of games. Complete nobodies can win golf tournamanets against stars of the game, hence why betting on golf is like blind throwing a dart at a dartboard.

Angel Cabrera and Jiminez are two top golfers from recent years. Plenty more. Shane Lowry is another one. The John Daly example is irrelevant.

Is Golf a sport? I will say more a game, but I wouldn't argue against it being labeled a sport.

In relation to the thread, could PEDs be of use to golfers. Yes!

ultrapercy

Chivito550 wrote: »

http://calorielab.com/burned/?mo=se&gr=15&ti=sports&q=&wt=150&un=lb&kg=68

Golf burns more calories than Shot Putt, Discus and Hammer Throw, Trampolining, and Gymnastics, all of which are considered sports, or events within a sport. It also burns close to the amount of calories as Baseball and Cricket. Personally, although I'm a shocking golfer and haven't played in years, I recall feeling physically drained at around hole 12, and my shots become noticeably poorer around this time of a round. Specific fitness is very important.

Also, coupled with the above, the actual skill levels required (Power, speed, co-ordination, balance etc) are very similar to other types of sport.

Critics use John Daly to try prove that golf is not a sport. This is a dated opinion. The sport has moved on. Physical fitness is a very important aspect of the modern game. Even at club level you will see gyms inside many golf clubs. In this day and age, if you are a fat chain smoker you probably aren't going to get very far.

As an aside, I've never heard anybody who actually enjoys the sport (watching or playing) say that it is not a sport. It usually comes from those who think it is boring to watch. Not in all cases, but as a general rule that seems to be the case.

I see you choose to ignore Krusty_Clown smiley face icon, the universal iconography of 'taking the piss'. You then brought the whole thing wildly off topic by introducing calorific expenditure as your own personal measure of what might constitute sport. To back up your own definition system you used baseball and cricket as comparison. The only reason these sports burn any calories at all is because they go on for so long and it requires a certain amount of calories for a body to maintain basic metabolic function such as respiration etc. ****ing baseball, I ask ya. 11 fat ba stars standing around making a mess of someone's nice clean dugout. Great game tho baseball.

Chivito550

ultrapercy wrote: »

I see you choose to ignore Krusty_Clown smiley face icon, the universal iconography of 'taking the piss'. You then brought the whole thing wildly off topic by introducing calorific expenditure as your own personal measure of what might constitute sport. To back up your own definition system you used baseball and cricket as comparison. The only reason these sports burn any calories at all is because they go on for so long and it requires a certain amount of calories for a body to maintain basic metabolic function such as respiration etc. ****ing baseball, I ask ya. 11 fat ba stars standing around making a mess of someone's nice clean dugout. Great game tho baseball.

Haha, well it's safe to say the thread is way off topic by introducing a darts player fail a doping test.

Those calorie figures are per hour, so it has nothing to do with the length of time one plays a game. And for baseball it is pitching and batting, and for cricket it is for batting and bowling. Fielding would no doubt burn much less than golf per hour.

Not sure Krusty was taking the piss. I've seen this discussed before here.

walshb

Meno's post was not off topic. Darts is a recognised sport. A player failed a dope test. Very much on topic.

Chivito550

walshb wrote: »

Meno's post was not off topic. Darts is a recognised sport. A player failed a dope test. Very much on topic.

Right so, Gary Player has come out and said that he personally knows many golfers who take performance enhancing drugs, the same kind of drugs people in the so called "real sports" take. Happy now?

Pherekydes

walshb wrote: »

I hope they never catch Garry Kasparov out. That will truly crush my belief in clean sport.

You might be interested in this:

2 year ban for Kasparov

walshb

Pherekydes wrote: »

You might be interested in this:

2 year ban for Kasparov

Fcuk him. He's only the 2nd greatest chess player anyway!

Pherekydes

walshb wrote: »

Fcuk him. He's only the 2nd greatest chess player anyway!

Nah, Kasparov is the greatest ever. And FIDE is, like many WGBs, corrupt to its core.

Kasparov is one of the good guys.

walshb

Pherekydes wrote: »

Nah, Kasparov is the greatest ever. And FIDE is, like many WGBs, corrupt to its core.

Kasparov is one of the good guys.

Deep Blue is better!:pac:

brocbrocach

Doesn't look great lads...
Anti-doping head arrested in corruption investigation.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/nov/05/gabriel-dolle-iaaf-criminal-investigation

Enduro

brocbrocach wrote: »

Doesn't look great lads...
Anti-doping head arrested in corruption investigation.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/nov/05/gabriel-dolle-iaaf-criminal-investigation

On the contrary, this is great. It's better that anyone who facilitates PEDs is found out and rooted out. Better again if they face criminal proceedings.

average_runner

Enduro wrote: »

On the contrary, this is great. It's better that anyone who facilitates PEDs is found out and rooted out. Better again if they face criminal proceedings.

Hardly a great thing. What has been hidden over the last 10 years of sport by him. How many more were robbed of medals and financial gains.

Yeah tell them its great news.

Just shows how corrupt the IAAF is, just another version of FIFA

Enduro

average_runner wrote: »

Hardly a great thing. What has been hidden over the last 10 years of sport by him. How many more were robbed of medals and financial gains.

Yeah tell them its great news.

Just shows how corrupt the IAAF is, just another version of FIFA

It is defnitely a great thing that he is under invistigation and that this is out in the open. Are you arguing that it would be better if this was all kept hidden as well?

If I was deprived of medals as a result of this guys actions I would be absolutely delighted that he is under investigation, so I imagine to them it is indeed great news

menoscemo

brocbrocach wrote: »

Doesn't look great lads...
Anti-doping head arrested in corruption investigation.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/nov/05/gabriel-dolle-iaaf-criminal-investigation

I wonder if he was covering up anyone other than the Russians. Hopefully it all comes out in the investigation.....