Audi - Too cheap?

Stheno

Señor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Reverse camera?

I have a neck like!

Ah but the little electronic device beeping is so much better

Funny story for you, one place I worked in in the city centre, the car park was jammers, so much so that to get out, you'd regularly have to get four or five people blocking you in to move.

If people were in meetings they would chuck their keys into a basket so someone else could move.

The one car no one ever volunteered to move was the only A6 in the carpark as it was so big and awkward!

Señor Fancy Pants

Stheno wrote: »

Are you going to go for it?

they are a beast to park

Im considering it. I had an A6 for 7 years, should be grand Should be!

Stheno

Señor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Im considering it. I had an A6 for 7 years, should be grand Should be!

Ah if you've had one before then you'll be grand!

Hachiko

at least you know the pitfalls, at least get it checked by a reputable garage before you splash your cash. You dont want to be chucking money away once you have parted cash.

Señor Fancy Pants

Stheno wrote: »

Ah if you've had one before then you'll be grand!

Car keys in a basket? I won't ask where you work, heh.

I'm still thinking of it but the multitronic is getting on my tits and I haven't even got it. Might just settle for a 2 litre diesel version.

Hachiko

what about a volvo barge or some other marque? if you have cash and you want a 2.5 litre petrol you call all the shots.

Stheno

Señor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Car keys in a basket? I won't ask where you work, heh.

I'm still thinking of it but the multitronic is getting on my tits and I haven't even got it. Might just settle for a 2 litre diesel version.

I think the chap I know who has one has the diesel, but bigger engined and he loves it.

Yeah car keys in a basket, you'd have three or four people you'd ask to move the car, on the basis of their safety record in not pranging it off the crooked wall lol

frozenfrozen

my mother has one of these since new with 270,000 kms. engine burns oil even after having valve stems done. emissions light constantly on these days and there doesn't seem to be a fix for it according to the few different garages it has been in.

The boot is huge, the space in the back seats is great, standard seats aren't too bad. the standard audi entertainment yoke is fine and just does the job.

There's fine power in it for what it is, the v6 is smooth and quiet but does give a nice sound around 6k revs although outside of sport mode it'll accelerate nicely and do smooth upshifts even while you're overtaking if you go easy with the pedal which is nice for motorway miles.

Not sure what else there is to say as there has never really been an issue outside of trying to fix the burning oil and such and that doesn't seem to be a regular issue according to a bit of googling

edit: the CVT gearbox is probably the best thing about this car, so smooth and never does anything that makes you go what's it doing now like I've seen other auto boxes do where they bang from second to first in slow moving traffic

unkel

frozenfrozen wrote: »

the CVT gearbox is probably the best thing about this car

QFP

The single best thing about the V6 petrol Audi A6 is the CVT box? That says a lot

Hachiko

true, I am less than impressed by the CVT on the new IS300H, I still think a IS250 is far better than that Audi, wont burn oil and you can get a proper smooth as silk auto box, but you wont get it at that bargain price.

but might as well talk to shadows here.

colm_mcm

The multitronic box is really suited to the diesels. I traded in an a4 130 TDI multitronic back in the day, it was a great match. At low revs the gearbox would act like the clutch was slipping, allowing the engine revs to rise and all the torque to come in. For an automatic it was quite enjoyable to drive. I would have hung in to it for a few weeks only the front tyres were in shreds.

zizou_

I owned a 1.8t multitronic and have driven the a6 2.4 multi. I really liked the gearbox particularly the response at low ish throttle input. The 2.4 doesn't have much torque but the gearbox seems to compensate for this. Around town the car feels much nippier than a 520i auto or even the Lexus is250 auto.

The big downside are the high failure rates but there are plenty of YouTube videos to show you what a bad one does so these can be avoided. I had no issues with mine but did get the oil changed at 60k km (most won't have done this change).

frozenfrozen

Hachiko wrote: »

true, I am less than impressed by the CVT on the new IS300H, I still think a IS250 is far better than that Audi, wont burn oil and you can get a proper smooth as silk auto box, but you wont get it at that bargain price.

but might as well talk to shadows here.

what do you mean proper smooth auto box? CVT is smooth

mickdw

frozenfrozen wrote: »

what do you mean proper smooth auto box? CVT is smooth

Forget about it. He is blind to all things other than the the masterpiece that is the IS250.

Hachiko

mickdw wrote: »

Forget about it. He is blind to all things other than the the masterpiece that is the IS250.

CTV box in 300h is different than the 6 speed automatic in the is250, (8 speed on ISF).

It has been said to have had slow response and general sluggishly response. The auto box on the 250 is fantastic in retrospective.

How many more times will I correct posters who know nothing about a lexus, down to and including telling a petrol from a diesel.

Brian Scan

Hachiko wrote: »

CTV box in 300h is different than the 6 speed automatic in the is250, (8 speed on ISF).

It has been said to have had slow response and general sluggishly response. The auto box on the 250 is fantastic in retrospective.

How many more times will I correct posters who know nothing about a lexus, down to and including telling a petrol from a diesel.

Many many more times.

Hachiko

Brian Scan wrote: »

Many many more times.

Seemingly so.

frozenfrozen

Why are you talking about a 'CTV' box in a lexus 300h when we're talking about the audi multitronic box on this A6 2.4?

Brian Scan

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Why are you talking about a 'CTV' box in a lexus 300h when we're talking about the audi multitronic box on this A6 2.4?

Lack of Focus.

Avatar MIA

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Why are you talking about a 'CTV' box in a lexus 300h when we're talking about the audi multitronic box on this A6 2.4?

Because the answer to life, the universe and everything isn't 42. It's Lexus.

Hachiko

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Because the answer to life, the universe and everything isn't 42. It's Lexus.

Unkel rightly said the CVT box is nothing to write home about , likewise it has been negatively criticised on the 300h, the is250 I suggested being a better buy is more reliable and can be got with a completely different auto box.

Hachiko

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Why are you talking about a 'CTV' box in a lexus 300h when we're talking about the audi multitronic box on this A6 2.4?

They are both CVT based and both flakey. Audi I believe are moving away from them to a dual clutch variation.

frozenfrozen

Flakey how?

Hachiko

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Flakey how?

Better throttle response for one. The is250 has a 6 speed auto box and used a multi clutch transmission, similar to the dual clutch one Audi are favouring.

frozenfrozen

How is the Audi CVT transmission flakey?

Audi moved to s tronic for efficiency. "Asked why the gearbox technology, which infinitely adjusts engine revs during acceleration, will be superseded by dual-clutch automated manual technology in future Audis, the development manager was forthright: “for efficiency reasons”.

“The multitronic offered a major benefit, you were able to keep the engine speed at very low revs thanks to the transmission ratio, but we’re now able to use a stepped transmission and the efficiency there is better than in comparison to a variator [CVT],” he continued.

“The large benefit of the multitronic was the low revs, but we are also able to do it now with this system [S tronic].”" found here


I'm not talking about the is250 or anything lexus I'm still talking about the Audi A6 2.4 CVT

colm_mcm

Hachiko wrote: »

Better throttle response for one. The is250 has a 6 speed auto box and used a multi clutch transmission, similar to the dual clutch one Audi are favouring.

Not similar at all. The Toyota/Lexus gearbox is a regular torque converter box. Same one as the GS300 and GT86.
DSG is a whole other ballgame and in my opinion is far superior from a driving POV. I will add that that gearbox is about as good as a torque converter box gets though.

Hachiko

The IS250 auto is much better than the CVT one used in the IS300h, The 8 speed sport direct shift utilised in the ISF makes DSG ones prehistoric in comparison, also to be used in the new IS200t.


Both diesel and petrol engined versions of the new Lexus IS are mated to a compact, accurate, 6-speed manual transmission featuring multi cone synchronisers to reduce shift effort, slide ball bearings in the gear lever shaft and fork shaft to improve shift efficiency, a triple synchro mechanism from 1st to 3rd gears to enhance shift feel, and a shift guide plate to decrease post-shift transmission play.

The IS 220d features a quiet, durable driveline adopted from the Lexus LS 430 and further enhanced by a liquid-filled differential mount for improved vibration damping. Models equipped with 18" wheels (standard in Sport specification and optional in the Luxury grade) feature a shorter differential gear ratio which improves in-gear acceleration by an average of 30%.

As well as the standard 6-speed manual transmission, the ultra-smooth Lexus V6 may be mated to a new 6-speed automatic transmission featuring sequential, paddle-shift control. Activated by simply selecting ‘S’ in the gear lever gate, the gear shift paddles are mounted directly on the steering wheel, eliminating the need to modify steering wheel grip, even when cornering. In addition, gear range selection can also be performed through the conventional gear lever.

Providing a faster downshift than fully automatic mode, the sequential mode allows for greater driver involvement, allowing exploitation of the new Lexus’ dynamic abilities to the full. This transmission adopts 3 planetary gear units, 4 clutches and 4 one-way clutches. A new clutch-to-clutch shift control is adopted between 5th and 6th gears, eliminating the one-way
clutch between them to both save weight and facilitate a more compact design. An Artificial Intelligence (AI-SHIFT) control automatically changes the gear shifting schedule according to road conditions and driving style.

While an enhanced lock-up timing control can improve fuel consumption in 5th and 6th gears, an automatic transmission fluid warmer further benefits fuel economy during cold starts.


http://pressroom.lexus.com/article_print.cfm?article_id=1519

colm_mcm

Yes but the IS250 box isn't as advanced as a DSG.
CVT suits hybrids.

Hachiko

From reviews of the IS300h doesn't seem like its the best auto box going, plus painfully slow. There will always be arguments with DSG in German cars and Auto boxes in Jap cars till cows come home, And then some. DSG is still light years behind the lightning quick 8 speed box in the ISF/RC-F, The fact it's to be used on the IS200h is a good thing for that car.

wonder did OP buy that A6? Be interesting if he did.

unkel

Hachiko wrote: »

DSG is still light years behind the lightning quick 8 speed box in the ISF

You trolling again or do you genuinely not know any better?

From your own link, the shift time in the ISF is 0.1s, which is 100ms

The bog standard DSG box fitted to a cheapo Skoda Fabia or Volkswagens Polo shifts in 8ms

That's more than 12 times faster...

BTW Volkswagen offered the DSG back 12 years ago. Again Porsche was the first company (remember from the other thread that Porsche had a hybrid petrol electric car 100 years before the Toyota Prius?) to develop a dual clutch manual. Back in the 80s...

Hachiko

I doubt the bog standard DSG fitted in a Skoda could handle the Torque and 400hp+ on tap of a ISF/RC-F drivetrain.

MuppetCheck

Hachiko wrote: »

I doubt the bog standard DSG fitted in a Skoda could handle the Torque and 400hp+ on tap of a ISF/RC-F drivetrain.

Thankfully they are not limited to one dual clutch gearbox like Lexus then. DSG is available on most versions, all the way up to the RS and R8 models which incidentally have more power than an ISF.

mickdw

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Thankfully they are not limited to one dual clutch gearbox like Lexus then. DSG is available on most versions, all the way up to the RS and R8 models which incidentally have more power than an ISF.

You are wasting your time trying to explain this stuff to people who know nothing about them.

Hachiko

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Thankfully they are not limited to one dual clutch gearbox like Lexus then. DSG is available on most versions, all the way up to the RS and R8 models which incidentally have more power than an ISF.

I see this thread nicely derailed again. Could have sworn the OP was on about an A6, BTW a R8 is not a competitor to the ISF/RC-F. Maybe compare it to the LFA (quite a few more HP than a R8) , considering that the R8 is the upper end of the Audi sports car segment.

There is a nice anti Japanese sentiment on this forum. Like the mod removing the post about Japanese cars too having rear staggered tyres. It must have hurt the ego of some German fans to say it was removed.

frozenfrozen

you're the one derailing the thread you never even replied to me after making the sweeping statement that the audi cvt box is flakey

Hachiko

frozenfrozen wrote: »

you're the one derailing the thread you never even replied to me after making the sweeping statement that the audi cvt box is flakey

Which it is, as well as being unreliable and having an unreliable and underpowered engine.

All I have said was a is250 has a smoother auto box than the one in the A6, as well as being a much more reliable car in general. If the OP doesn't want a Lexus that's well and good. It will also cost more however.

Hachiko

mickdw wrote: »

You are wasting your time trying to explain this stuff to people who know nothing about them.

DSG direct shift boxes (dual clutch variants) are totally different than a fully automatic, it's true the shift times are much quicker but many companies have the automatics as used in the ISF because they are much smoother and manage the torque and power delivery better.

some figures.

Volkswagen Golf GTI (Direct Shift): 8 ms
Bugatti Veyron (Direct Shift): 8 ms
All Volkswagen DSG Gearbox (Direct Shift): 8 ms

For a normal manual shift time is 0.5-1.0 seconds.

• Lexus IS-F gearbox (as per my attachment above shifts @ circa 100 ms)
• The BMW ZF 8HP (comparable to the Lexus) shifts @ circa 200ms
• Mercedes 7 Speed MCT : CL63 AMG - 100ms
• Aston Martin Vanquish: 250 ms
• Ferrari 575M: 220 ms
• BMW M3 E36 with SMG I: 220 ms
• Ferrari 360: 150 ms
• Enzo Ferrari: 150 ms
• Lexus LFA: 150 ms
• Ferrari FXX: Under 100 ms
• Nissan GT-R: 100ms
• BMW M3 E46 with SMG II: 80 ms
• Ferrari 430 Scuderia & FXX Evoluzione: 60 ms

Also the transmission in the 10 year old IS250 is a bit more sophisticated as let on by people here.




Thankfully they are not limited to one dual clutch gearbox like Lexus then.




it has 4 clutches for starters, not 2 and thats the reason its so smooth and why IMO they are superior to the CVT type which can be noisy, unreliable and generally less 'engaging' to drive than a fully manual box, dual clutch/dsg variant or the more advanced automatics mentioned above.

Brian Scan

Hachiko wrote: »

DSG direct shift boxes (dual clutch variants) are totally different than a fully automatic, it's true the shift times are much quicker but many companies have the automatics as used in the ISF because they are much smoother and manage the torque and power delivery better.

some figures.

Volkswagen Golf GTI (Direct Shift): 8 ms
Bugatti Veyron (Direct Shift): 8 ms
All Volkswagen DSG Gearbox (Direct Shift): 8 ms

For a normal manual shift time is 0.5-1.0 seconds.

• Lexus IS-F gearbox (as per my attachment above shifts @ circa 100 ms)
• The BMW ZF 8HP (comparable to the Lexus) shifts @ circa 200ms
• Mercedes 7 Speed MCT : CL63 AMG - 100ms
• Aston Martin Vanquish: 250 ms
• Ferrari 575M: 220 ms
• BMW M3 E36 with SMG I: 220 ms
• Ferrari 360: 150 ms
• Enzo Ferrari: 150 ms
• Lexus LFA: 150 ms
• Ferrari FXX: Under 100 ms
• Nissan GT-R: 100ms
• BMW M3 E46 with SMG II: 80 ms
• Ferrari 430 Scuderia & FXX Evoluzione: 60 ms

Also the transmission in the 10 year old IS250 is a bit more sophisticated as let on by people here.




Thankfully they are not limited to one dual clutch gearbox like Lexus then.




it has 4 clutches for starters, not 2 and thats the reason its so smooth and why IMO they are superior to the CVT type which can be noisy, unreliable and generally less 'engaging' to drive than a fully manual box, dual clutch/dsg variant or the more advanced automatics mentioned above.

You'd wonder why anyone would drive a manual Lexus.

unkel

Hachiko wrote: »

[*]Lexus IS-F gearbox (as per my attachment above shifts @ circa 100 ms)
[*]The BMW ZF 8HP (comparable to the Lexus) shifts @ circa 200ms

No it's not.

The 8 speed ZF box is for economy. Works great for the small 4 cylinder diesels hence the low CO2 (and fuel consumption) hence the low tax hence their popularity in Ireland

The BMW M3 is comparable to the IS-F as a car, but it uses a double clutch system - don't know what the shift times are, but no doubt faster than the 100ms of the IS-F

Hachiko

SMG I = 220ms

SMG II = 80ms

Dual clutch and 7 gear M-DCT (8 in the ISF) = 80ms rumoured.

how fast is 20ms.....can you fart in 20ms, doubt it.

should be noted the 8 speed in the ISF is strictly speaking one of the fastest 'automatic' boxes in the world.

Hachiko

Brian Scan wrote: »

You'd wonder why anyone would drive a manual Lexus.

That is indeed true, but tbh my manual is fine (no better or worse than any other manual out there, and slightly faster also than the autos) I did not realise the Auto was so good until I had this purchased. Looking for a good IS250 SEL is not an easy job and I snapped this up without fully looking into the auto variant.

I could put big money into a new clutch, flywheel and coilovers if i wanted to and the car would be totally different but would rather put all that into my next purchase.

I am usually a manual guy but have no such hesitation moving to an auto looking ahead to my next car.

unkel

Hachiko wrote: »

SMG I = 220ms

SMG II = 80ms

Dual clutch and 7 gear M-DCT (8 in the ISF) = 80ms rumoured.

Funny you mention the SMG boxes. I recently drove an '07 BMW M6 with the 7 speed single clutch SMG III box, which shifts in 65ms

I found the shift speeds ridiculously slow for such a powerful car. It really held the car back.

Pretty much all serious performance cars these days have much faster shifting automated double clutch gearboxes. If you don't as a car maker, you are either making a fool of yourself or commerce dictates you have to provide for the die hard customers who can't let go of the clutch pedal...

MuppetCheck

mickdw wrote: »

You are wasting your time trying to explain this stuff to people who know nothing about them.

He's just proven you right.

Hachiko wrote: »

The 8 speed sport direct shift utilised in the ISF makes DSG ones prehistoric in comparison,

Hachiko wrote: »

Volkswagen Golf GTI (Direct Shift): 8 ms
Bugatti Veyron (Direct Shift): 8 ms
All Volkswagen DSG Gearbox (Direct Shift): 8 ms

]Lexus IS-F gearbox (as per my attachment above shifts @ circa 100 ms)

I've used selective quoting like the troll to prove that though:pac:

Hachiko

MuppetCheck wrote: »

He's just proven you right.

Do you know that the Auto box in the ISF is totally different than the Dual Clutch, SMG I-III, M-DCT and even CVT boxes.

I doubt it no more than you ever drove a Lexus of any sort.

MuppetCheck wrote: »

I've used selective quoting like the troll to prove that though:pac:

fair play on ya hai.!

MuppetCheck

Hachiko wrote: »

Do you know that the Auto box in the ISF is totally different than the Dual Clutch, SMG I-III, M-DCT and even CVT boxes.

I doubt it no more than you ever drove a Lexus of any sort.




fair play on ya hai.!

I have but why engage in sensical conversation with a troll? You'll ignore any points and carry on with your script.

Hachiko

unkel wrote: »

Funny you mention the SMG boxes. I recently drove an '07 BMW M6 with the 7 speed single clutch SMG III box, which shifts in 65ms

I found the shift speeds ridiculously slow for such a powerful car. It really held the car back.

Pretty much all serious performance cars these days have much faster shifting automated double clutch gearboxes. If you don't as a car maker, you are either making a fool of yourself or commerce dictates you have to provide for the die hard customers who can't let go of the clutch pedal...

Can you answer me so how fast is 20ms, that apparently is the difference this poorly transmission (in your mind) yet also one of the worlds fastest automatic boxes used by the well engineered and well reviewed Lexus ISF with its advanced 8 speed transmission- (no dual clutch which is of course far superior), being a devout German enthusiast, who I doubt stepped inside any Lexus also.

Hachiko

MuppetCheck wrote: »

I have but why engage in sensical conversation with a troll? You'll ignore any points and carry on with your script.

you haven't and are obviously engrossed in this thread and my posts, so I think you are contradicting yourself somewhat.

The normal thing is to go to your settings and click on my name and stop following me and my posts.

then you can make tea and life is complete.

I dont even know what you drive (nor care) but it's probably not Japanese and probably not petrol either.

unkel

Hachiko wrote: »

Can you answer me so how fast is 20ms, that apparently is the difference this poorly transmission (in your mind) yet also one of the worlds fastest automatic boxes

Did you read my post at all? The near 10 year old Getrag box shifted in 65ms, which felt very slow for a performance car to me. And yes, before you ask, I was applying full throttle. And yes, the car was in the fastest shift mode setting.

Your so called "one of the fastest automatic boxes" in the LS-F shifts in 100ms

Hachiko

Yes I can read. SMG forgive my ignorance and lack of googling are basic computer controlled and as you stated quite dated, the 8 speed box used in the ISF is (completely different) far more refined and advanced and much much smoother.

You clearly never drove an ISF, it might surprise you. The specifications compared to a M3 are nearly identical anyway for 2010 models which I am eying up. I will also get much more standard kit and that given reliability which is very important to me.

here is a review ..being bashed about by all these posters is not easy

http://www.themotorreport.com.au/50296/2010-lexus-is-f-torsen-lsd-road-test-review


The V8 is character-laden and loaded with torque. It will float you quietly and effortlessly around town, or scream like a Banshee when wound-up on an early morning run through the hills.

You would have to be stone cold dead not to appreciate this engine.

The eight-speed automatic is a precision instrument. Normally one to avoid paddle shifting, the IS F had me addicted after the first throttle blip, on the change form third to second. In sport mode the shifts are so fast and so precise, and the throttle blips on downchanges so evocative, that its hard to imagine a better way to change gears.

DSG-style gearboxes are outclassed by this smart auto, and even a good manual seems a little redundant.

unkel

Hachiko wrote: »

the 8 speed in the ISF is strictly speaking one of the fastest 'automatic' boxes in the world.

Hachiko wrote: »

the 8 speed box used in the ISF is much much smoother

Will you make your mind up?

I've already proven that the 8 speed box in the ISF is slow. Very slow.

Smooth? Nothing wrong with smooth. I like smooth. Best way to be in a luxury large sedan like a Mercedes S-class or a Lexus LS. That said smooth has no place in a performance car.