How clean is football?

racso1975

Cycling and athletics have had their dair share of bad publicity ib relation to peds as has ufc and boxing.

There has been rumours about rugby for some time.

But do you believe given the amount of money to be made by players and clubs that the sport is clean?

I dont really think it is clean. Could someone correct me if I am wrong but was sure I read that uf a player tests positive it does not need to be announced to the public and the club can just say he is injured while serving the ban.

NIMAN

I think it's safe to say that there are PEDs in football for sure.

Too much money involved not to be dirty.

duffman13

racso1975 wrote: »

Cycling and athletics have had their dair share of bad publicity ib relation to peds as has ufc and boxing.

There has been rumours about rugby for some time.

But do you believe given the amount of money to be made by players and clubs that the sport is clean?

I dont really think it is clean. Could someone correct me if I am wrong but was sure I read that uf a player tests positive it does not need to be announced to the public and the club can just say he is injured while serving the ban.

Your wrong, any drug bans need to reported via an anti doping agency. I would say it's somewhat clean in comparison to other sports which doesn't mean a whole lot

I'd say it's pretty riddled.

It just has to be with the money involved.

The_Kew_Tour

100% there is Drugs in football.

Google in Doping in Spanish game and you get some eye opening and interesting reads.

The fact "Doctor" Fuentes had footballers on his "list" and all charges dropped for that reason, really should have been a huge story, instead of it going under the carpet the way it did.

QikBax

All professional sports are riddled with TRT, HGH, Steroids and blood doping.

I'm sure we'll eventually see most uncovered. As others have said, there's too much money on the line for individuals and teams not to be trying to gain every advantage possible.

Can you imagine the amount of negative publicity and possible loss of earnings that a huge club would face if it was revealed they were involved in systematic doping?

You would need a whistle blower from a top club, some evidence and a brave journalist or two.


Would love to see it happen

Harry Palmr

There are far too many dopey footballers for there to be a doping problem in football.

dfx-

I would tend to agree with Tim Vickery on this that drugs have a hugely lesser impact on football than one dimensional sports like athletics and cycling where strength and physicality is everything.

Even the biggest athlete will be undone by skill. The ball is the key.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Does anyone really believe that Rio Ferdinand just "forgot" to show up for his drug test appointment?

Arghus

dfx- wrote: »

I would tend to agree with Tim Vickery on this that drugs have a hugely lesser impact on football than one dimensional sports like athletics and cycling where strength and physicality is everything.

Even the biggest athlete will be undone by skill. The ball is the key.

I think Vickery is half right and half wrong: raw physicality or speed mightn't have the decisive effect in football as it does in other sports, but it sure doesn't hurt to have more of it in your locker than mother nature would have endowed you with otherwise.

A player or a team that can run harder, jump higher or posesses unnatural powers of stamina and recovery is surely going to have an advantage, at least some of the time. They mightn't be able to beat the best of the best for skill, but they may be able to best them by running them into the ground. Sometimes that can be decisive.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

Does anyone really believe that Rio Ferdinand just "forgot" to show up for his drug test appointment?

It doesn't really matter. He was punished for it.

Winston Payne

Look at the speed of top level football and then think about the workload involved over a year. Drugs would aid hugely in recovery alone. Football's testing programs are a joke and there is huge incentive to juice. The sport's filthy I've no doubt. On and off the field.

Winston Payne

Winston Payne wrote: »

Drugs would aid hugely in recovery alone.

This is key.

Imagine being able to bring back a star player from a hamstring injury in a few weeks for example. That would be surely a huge advantage to teams..

Maximus Alexander

I'd be stunned to find out that it was anything other than rife.

dfx-

Arghus wrote: »

I think Vickery is half right and half wrong: raw physicality or speed mightn't have the decisive effect in football as it does in other sports, but it sure doesn't hurt to have more of it in your locker than mother nature would have endowed you with otherwise.

A player or a team that can run harder, jump higher or posesses unnatural powers of stamina and recovery is surely going to have an advantage, at least some of the time. They mightn't be able to beat the best of the best for skill, but they may be able to best them by running them into the ground. Sometimes that can be decisive.

Winston Payne wrote: »

Look at the speed of top level football and then think about the workload involved over a year. Drugs would aid hugely in recovery alone. Football's testing programs are a joke and there is huge incentive to juice. The sport's filthy I've no doubt. On and off the field.

But if you can't then pass the ball ten yards or put the striker in when you win it back or clear it or head the ball clear, pace/recovery is not much use. There's a reason why Usain Bolt would be comical at professional football. Or how Guardiola described Walcott.

Ultimately, football is won with the ball.

dfx-

dfx- wrote: »

But if you can't then pass the ball ten yards or put the striker in when you win it back or clear it or head the ball clear, pace/recovery is not much use. There's a reason why Usain Bolt would be comical at professional football. Or how Guardiola described Walcott.

Ultimately, football is won with the ball.

What if you can pass the ball 10 yards etc? Surely you can see the advantage of quicker recovery for key players?

If you cant pass the ball 10 yards and the rest you don't play at a high level anyway

Arghus

dfx- wrote: »

But if you can't then pass the ball ten yards or put the striker in when you win it back or clear it or head the ball clear, pace/recovery is not much use. There's a reason why Usain Bolt would be comical at professional football. Or how Guardiola described Walcott.

Ultimately, football is won with the ball.

I agree; if your football skills are absolute kack, then being doped isn't going to really help you.

But, let's say someone with bags of natural ability is being aided by doping or something like it, imagine how formidable they are then - skill plus that added percentage. It could make a hell of a difference at the top level of competition, where differences in natural ability could be slight, but matter a lot.

I agree with you about skill largely being what counts in football, but we've all seen average teams beat superior opposition thanks to sheer effort. Something to make that effort even more effective isn't a thing I'd be so blasé about.

gosplan

Obviously you need to be good at football as well.

For me you just need to look at some of the Barca seasons or Atletico's title winning season with maybe 13/14 core players or something like that.

Like 12 guys running 2 half marathons a week and avoiding injury and fatigue?

Too good to be true I'd say.

The_Kew_Tour

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

Does anyone really believe that Rio Ferdinand just "forgot" to show up for his drug test appointment?

No, I don't.

But not for PHD, more creational stuff.

gosplan

Ah OK.

Not very clean at all according to this.

A lot of actual cases here too

http://www.4dfoot.com/2013/02/09/doping-in-football-fifty-years-of-evidence/

"Football is 100% clean" - Ronaldo

He's some man to know this.

:rolleyes:

dfx-

Arghus wrote: »

I agree; if your football skills are absolute kack, then being doped isn't going to really help you.

But, let's say someone with bags of natural ability is being aided by doping or something like it, imagine how formidable they are then - skill plus that added percentage. It could make a hell of a difference at the top level of competition, where differences in natural ability could be slight, but matter a lot.

I agree with you about skill largely being what counts in football, but we've all seen average teams beat superior opposition thanks to sheer effort. Something to make that effort even more effective isn't a thing I'd be so blasé about.

But it's also not just your 'enhanced' skills, your teammate has to control the ball and have the ability too and probably has to be doped to cover some ground too. You surely can't charge everyone down yourself even on drugs, which again is different to the individual achievement of cycling and especially athletics.

Blood doping that cycling was up to might be the one that made a difference in decision making and I wonder what might be unearthed of it in football around the turn of the century. Today? I don't think it's possible to keep that quiet anymore and that sort of biological passport thing should be brought into football.

How many of the average team wins are down to team organisation and discipline and determination as their individual fitness..or even profligacy or naivety by the superior side in front of goal. It is probably advantageous in otherwise equally matched sides at the top of the game, but rife?

For it to be 'rife', it would be the cover up of decades to keep everyone quiet in this social media age with players hopping to different clubs every couple of years.

Whilst I'd agree that it is almost certainly happening, I would have it only alongside the hoarding of players like Parma or Udinese or Chelsea and financial doping of middle eastern billionaires and EPL TV money as black marks in the game.

Spanish football always comes up in doping discussions. No smoke without fire

In 2006, Spanish investigators uncovered a wide doping network around doctor Eufemiano Fuentes. Most big name cyclists from around the world were implicated and subsequently banned. Then something strange happened. As soon as reports surfaced that footballers too, were on Fuentes’ client lists, no further action was taken.
Even during the current trial of Fuentes, the Spanish judge has forbidden Fuentes to name any athletes other than cyclists. Clearly, some people don’t want the truth to come out.
In a 2006 interview with French newspaper Le Monde,

I worked with Spanish first and second division clubs. Sometimes directly with the footballers themselves, sometimes by sharing my knowledge with the teams doctors. I had an offer from an Italian club but I turned it down.

MightyMandarin

rarnes1 wrote: »

Spanish football always comes up in doping discussions. No smoke without fire

I read Pirlo's book last year and I remember he made some suggestions of doping against the Deportivo side who had that famous comeback against AC some years back. He said that there players were incredibly fit; and never seemed to stop running, and when the half time whistle blew, they raced down the tunnel hardly looking like they'd played 45mins of football.

He also said

I don’t have any proof, so what follows isn’t an accusation – I’d never allow myself to go that far. It’s simply a nasty thought I’ve occasionally let percolate in the intervening years.

"For the first and only time in my life, I’ve wondered if people I’d shared a pitch with might have been on something".

~Rebel~

dfx- wrote: »

But it's also not just your 'enhanced' skills, your teammate has to control the ball and have the ability too and probably has to be doped to cover some ground too. You surely can't charge everyone down yourself even on drugs, which again is different to the individual achievement of cycling and especially athletics.

Blood doping that cycling was up to might be the one that made a difference in decision making and I wonder what might be unearthed of it in football around the turn of the century. Today? I don't think it's possible to keep that quiet anymore and that sort of biological passport thing should be brought into football.

How many of the average team wins are down to team organisation and discipline and determination as their individual fitness..or even profligacy or naivety by the superior side in front of goal. It is probably advantageous in otherwise equally matched sides at the top of the game, but rife?

For it to be 'rife', it would be the cover up of decades to keep everyone quiet in this social media age with players hopping to different clubs every couple of years.

Whilst I'd agree that it is almost certainly happening, I would have it only alongside the hoarding of players like Parma or Udinese or Chelsea and financial doping of middle eastern billionaires and EPL TV money as black marks in the game.

Wouldn't be too sure about it being done by full teams - but look at it the other way. Football is a selfish game. the players first and foremost have their own careers to worry about. The team doesn't need to win to get ahead. There are in or abouts 500 premier league registered players (20x25), plus youth players. Wouldn't be surprised to find that dozens of them are on some sort of of PED. Also wouldn't be surprised to find that it's the guys on the periphery's rather than household name first teamers.

I'd say if you drop down to championship it could be more prevalent even, where physicality counts for more, and where the stakes are even higher. Nearly all prem players make a good wage, but it starts to drop pretty quickly as you go down the leagues, and I could see players getting a lot more desperate and motivated by this kind of thing.

All complete speculation of course!

NIMAN

I do think that in years to come, and it might be many years away, we might well find out some information about certain players, team doctors etc.

For me there are a few candidates that seemed to be incredibly injury prone players in their early 20s, who then suddenly became players that could play practically every game of the season, followed by major tournaments in the summer, straight back into a new season after relatively short breaks. And all the time running around the pitch for 90min like an 18yr old, covering 10k every single game.

Rather than name names, lets just say one has just left as a Barca legend, the other an aging Dutchman who can run 100m in 10.8sec with the ball at his feet after playing a gruellling 80mins already.

MightyMandarin

NIMAN wrote: »

Rather than name names, lets just say one has just left as a Barca legend, the other an aging Dutchman who can run 100m in 10.8sec with the ball at his feet after playing a gruellling 80mins already.

Was it really 10.8secs though? There's lads competing at an international level in athletics who don't have times like that, especially white lads.

Also, there are some freaks out there; Dennis Rommedhal was still one of the quickest in football when he was in his late '30s.

NIMAN

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Was it really 10.8secs though? There's lads competing at an international level in athletics who don't have times like that, especially white lads.

Also, there are some freaks out there; Dennis Rommedhal was still one of the quickest in football when he was in his late '30s.

Can't remember if that was the exact time. It might have been for 90m and not 100m, not sure.

But many people did comment on how fast he ran. And its not like he is just concentrating on sprinting, he has to worry about keeping a ball under control and the little matter of defenders chasing him and in front of him too. And these were WC winning opponents too. And it was near the end of the game, a game in which he had ran a lot and destroyed the opposition, so not too shabby whatever way you look at it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/worldcup2014/article-2659972/Arjen-Robben-fastest-footballer-world-rapid-sprint-Holland-against-Spain-World-Cup-2014.html

Andersonisgod

NIMAN wrote: »

I do think that in years to come, and it might be many years away, we might well find out some information about certain players, team doctors etc.

For me there are a few candidates that seemed to be incredibly injury prone players in their early 20s, who then suddenly became players that could play practically every game of the season, followed by major tournaments in the summer, straight back into a new season after relatively short breaks. And all the time running around the pitch for 90min like an 18yr old, covering 10k every single game.

Rather than name names, lets just say one has just left as a Barca legend, the other an aging Dutchman who can run 100m in 10.8sec with the ball at his feet after playing a gruellling 80mins already.

An unproven, unfounded smear, the guesswork of somebody not in the know, not even closely connected with the player, club, doctors who have worked with the player or the professional game in Spain. It's a ridiculous and slimy kind of claim to make when you are not in possession of any facts whatsoever, the kind of opinion that should be dismissed immediately, the kind that if it were printed in a published article would be considered libelous. The kind of horrid accusation you'd expect in a witch hunt.

GLaDOS

NIMAN wrote: »

Rather than name names, lets just say one has just left as a Barca legend

For privacy sake, let's call him Xavi H. No, that's too obvious, let's say X. Hernandez.

The_Kew_Tour

Andersonisgod wrote: »

An unproven, unfounded smear, the guesswork of somebody not in the know, not even closely connected with the player, club, doctors who have worked with the player or the professional game in Spain. It's a ridiculous and slimy kind of claim to make when you are not in possession of any facts whatsoever, the kind of opinion that should be dismissed immediately, the kind that if it were printed in a published article would be considered libelous. The kind of horrid accusation you'd expect in a witch hunt.

True, however when you have a manager, who as a player, failed a drug test, not once, but twice and then that teams does something special to the eye, then questions will always be there.

Sadly that's the way it is.

And then you have Doctor Fuentes and his list of clients. That's way world works, again sadly.

EuropeanSon

Andersonisgod wrote: »

An unproven, unfounded smear, the guesswork of somebody not in the know, not even closely connected with the player, club, doctors who have worked with the player or the professional game in Spain. It's a ridiculous and slimy kind of claim to make when you are not in possession of any facts whatsoever, the kind of opinion that should be dismissed immediately, the kind that if it were printed in a published article would be considered libelous. The kind of horrid accusation you'd expect in a witch hunt.

Hahahahaha.

NIMAN

When Fuentes' drug samples were ordered to be destroyed by the Courts, and he makes comments like "if people knew the truth they would take the WC2010 off Spain", you can't help but be suspicious.

Of course I have no proof, but sometimes you just see things that you find hard to accept. Football is no different. I have no doubt there are PEDs in the game, no doubt. And if you think that there isn't and that even some top players aren't involved in taking them, then perhaps you need to open your eyes.

Guardiola did test positive twice when playing in Italy that's a fact.

The same doctor then worked with him when he was manager at Barcelona as head doctor.

Another 2 doping doctors have been linked to Barcelona.

https://thelongballtactic.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/what-links-fc-barcelona-and-the-lance-armstrong-doping-case/


It's all speculation and coincidence obviously..

efb

If football is clean them I'm the pope

ahnowbrowncow

efb wrote: »

If football is clean them I'm the pope

Maybe you are the pope, Francis could spend his time posting on boards.ie

efb

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Maybe you are the pope, Francis could spend his time posting on boards.ie

and be an openly gay activist who watches a lot of TV... does not compute.

ahnowbrowncow

efb wrote: »

and be an openly gay activist who watches a lot of TV... does not compute.

That's the type of stuff you would say if you didn't want us to know you are the pope.

Game's up efb or should I say... Francis

efb

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

That's the type of stuff you would say if you didn't want us to know you are the pope.

Game's up efb or should I say... Francis

It was the Blind Faith (in Wenger) that gave the game away wasn't it...

ArmaniJeanss

NIMAN wrote: »

For me there are a few candidates that seemed to be incredibly injury prone players in their early 20s, who then suddenly became players that could play practically every game of the season, followed by major tournaments in the summer, straight back into a new season after relatively short breaks. And all the time running around the pitch for 90min like an 18yr old, covering 10k every single game.

Of all the 'evidence' that gets put forward this is one of the more lolworthy parts. "He runs 10K in 90 minutes (with a 15 minute break) once and sometimes twice a week, so clearly on drugs."
Like theres a 74 year old woman in Hartstown who nails 5K in ~25 mins every week, there are literally thousands of balding beerbellied middleaged men doing 5K in 30 minutes every Saturday or 10K in just over an hour.
What Xavi was running on the pitch (whilst also contributing to a game of football) was wholly unremarkable for a professional male athlete in his late20s/early30s.
Just about every player could manage it if asked, though very few play in a system that requires it.

BMJD

I find it hard to believe that of the thousands of current and retired players and managers out there, none have lifted the lid and produced the smoking gun that many of you are sure is there. Surely someone who left a club in acrimonious circumstances, Roy Keane for example, would be happy to spill the beans if there was dodgy stuff going on? Or a manager who is badly treated and fired? Even if it was being done individually, I don't believe those guys would keep quiet for years, to their teammates or the media.

Maybe I'm naive, we are talking about a small group of elite, professional athletes, it's entirely possible that cheating is going on, but maybe someone like Arjen Robben is just a freak of nature of something.

Rayne Wooney

It's definitely something that has a major question mark hanging over and it's hard to see it ever going away

I've always felt something was a bit off with Guardiola in particular to be honest

Winston Payne

BMJD wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that of the thousands of current and retired players and managers out there, none have lifted the lid and produced the smoking gun that many of you are sure is there. Surely someone who left a club in acrimonious circumstances, Roy Keane for example, would be happy to spill the beans if there was dodgy stuff going on? Or a manager who is badly treated and fired? Even if it was being done individually, I don't believe those guys would keep quiet for years, to their teammates or the media.

Maybe I'm naive, we are talking about a small group of elite, professional athletes, it's entirely possible that cheating is going on, but maybe someone like Arjen Robben is just a freak of nature of something.

The player that comes forward like that doesn't just lift the lid on the team, but also himself. He might claim that he wasn't on them but who would believe it? Matias Almeyda was pretty forward about the drugs that were being used at Parma a few years ago and he at least admitted to being on them himself. I can't see too many being like that.

Celly Smunt

BMJD wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that of the thousands of current and retired players and managers out there, none have lifted the lid and produced the smoking gun that many of you are sure is there. Surely someone who left a club in acrimonious circumstances, Roy Keane for example, would be happy to spill the beans if there was dodgy stuff going on? Or a manager who is badly treated and fired? Even if it was being done individually, I don't believe those guys would keep quiet for years, to their teammates or the media.

Maybe I'm naive, we are talking about a small group of elite, professional athletes, it's entirely possible that cheating is going on, but maybe someone like Arjen Robben is just a freak of nature of something.

Could be so strife that opening that can of worms is the end of their career and the end of the social circle around the entire game, especially without hard evidence.

Turtwig

Clean is the word people should be focusing on here. Never ask a sports person if they're clean. Ask them what it means to be 'clean'?

Most people think if it's not against the official rules it's ok. Last season Juve's players covered a staggering 16km+ per match. Luis Enrique's Barcelona distance stats were similar but slightly less (probably down to Messi's laziness). Jupp Heynckes treble Bayern covered about 14km. In 2009 Barca-Man U final the average distance was around 9km per match. Keep in mind now this isn't exclusively about the distance ran. It's about the intensity games were played at and the mental concentration required for that intensity.

How much of this improvement can be put down to training techniques and diet?Make no mistake, in every sport every team will take whatever advantages they can as long as they think they're within the rules. To paraphrase Brian Cody if you wish you win then you have to play on the edge, otherwise he simply wouldn't want a player in his team.

Make no mistake too the professionals bodies of many sports are incredibly disingenuous towards doping. When someone is caught they'll disown them. Up until that point though they'll cooperate as little as possible leaving anti-doping authorities mostly frustrated and in the dark.

I've no doubt doping exists in soccer. The only doubt I have is whether or not players are aware they're doing it. I find it very difficult to believe some of those elderly players on the Juventus team could cover 15km in 90 minutes for a whole season that was almost a treble. I find it hard to believe that certain Barcelona stars could play consistently in every tournament international and club for a whole season. Nevermind a period of 4 years.

Finally, in doping we have a tendency to look at just winners. Which isn't always correct as sometimes a clean competitor might beat several dirty ones. Or sometimes they're all dirty. Again it all comes back to what clubs today consider clean.

Personally I think Rugby, Soccer, name the sport, all have infestations of doping in some manner or guise.

LuckyLloyd

Every sport, every time has the staunch defenders of cleanliness until the scandal breaks. I was part of the chorus that believed in Armstrong through 2005 and had all the arguments as to why he wasn't doping, no sir. He didn't need to after all blah, blah.

It will come out eventually.

Turtwig

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Of all the 'evidence' that gets put forward this is one of the more lolworthy parts. "He runs 10K in 90 minutes (with a 15 minute break) once and sometimes twice a week, so clearly on drugs."
Like theres a 74 year old woman in Hartstown who nails 5K in ~25 mins every week, there are literally thousands of balding beerbellied middleaged men doing 5K in 30 minutes every Saturday or 10K in just over an hour.
What Xavi was running on the pitch (whilst also contributing to a game of football) was wholly unremarkable for a professional male athlete in his late20s/early30s.
Just about every player could manage it if asked, though very few play in a system that requires it.

There is a hell of a difference between running 5k in a athletics and running 5k on the field. It's a bit like trying to compare 5k in swimming to 5k in cycling.
The exertions on the body and mind are totally different.

MightyMandarin

Turtwig wrote: »

There is a hell of a difference between running 5k in a athletics and running 5k on the field. It's a bit like trying to compare 5k in swimming to 5k in cycling.
The exertions on the body and mind are totally different.

This. Running in football is not consistent like in athletics as it's constant stop-start with plenty of sprints in there aswell. A footballer covering 10k in 90mins is not great by athletics standards, but it shows a very high level of fitness by footballing standards.

Knex*

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Of all the 'evidence' that gets put forward this is one of the more lolworthy parts. "He runs 10K in 90 minutes (with a 15 minute break) once and sometimes twice a week, so clearly on drugs."
Like theres a 74 year old woman in Hartstown who nails 5K in ~25 mins every week, there are literally thousands of balding beerbellied middleaged men doing 5K in 30 minutes every Saturday or 10K in just over an hour.
What Xavi was running on the pitch (whilst also contributing to a game of football) was wholly unremarkable for a professional male athlete in his late20s/early30s.
Just about every player could manage it if asked, though very few play in a system that requires it.

Sprint for two kilometers and then let me know when you want to jog the next 14.

I hadn't realised at all that Juve's distance was so high on average this past year. Constantly over 12 or 13km, accounting for sprints, tackles, collisions etc, it just seems insane to me.

ArmaniJeanss

Turtwig wrote: »

There is a hell of a difference between running 5k in a athletics and running 5k on the field. It's a bit like trying to compare 5k in swimming to 5k in cycling.
The exertions on the body and mind are totally different.

You're comparing swimming and cycling and I'm comparing running and running, so I think my comparison is better!
I understand they are different forms of running but I still think its serves the purpose of clarifying that 10K in 90 minutes is just not very remarkable for a 20yo/30yo in peak fitness.

Where Juve players really covering 16K, was that the norm, the average or a once off outlier? I would actually start to be on your side if it was an average.