County Standing By Population

Jayop

Noticed this post in the All-Ireland thread and upon looking at it it's remarkable how close the population tallies to counties standing in football.

I'm colour coding the list to show.

cjmc wrote: »

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_counties_by_population

Division 1
Division 2
Division 3
Division 4

1 Dublin 1,273,069
2 Antrim 618,108
3 Down 531,665
4 Cork 519,032
5 Galway 250,541
6 Derry 247,132
7 Kildare 210,312
8 Limerick 191,809
9 Meath 184,135
10 Tyrone 179,000
11 Armagh 174,792
12 Donegal 161,137
13 Tipperary 158,754
14 Kerry 145,502
15 Wexford 145,320
16 Wicklow 136,640
17 Mayo 130,638
18 Louth 122,897
19 Clare 117,196
20 Waterford 113,795
22 Westmeath 86,164
23 Laois 80,559
24 Offaly 76,687
25 Cavan 73,183
26 Sligo 65,393
27 Roscommon64,065
28 Fermanagh 61,170
29 Monaghan 60,483
30 Carlow 54,612
31 Longford 39,000
32 Leitrim 31,796

As expected

5 of the top 6 counties by population are Div 1 & 2
9 of the top 12 counties by population are Div 1 & 2
The bottom 3 counties are all Division 3 & 4.
8 of the middle 16 counties are Div 2 & 3

There's counties of course punching above their weight.

Monaghan and Roscommon with the 6th and 4th lowest population in the county are in Div 1.
Fermanagh with the 5th lowest are in Div 2 and got to the last 16 in the AI this year.


And counties who have big populations but low standing.
Antrim - mainly unionist county with a big hurling culture
Kildare - No excuse, football county with 7th biggest population should be better.
Limerick - Hurling county
Tipp - Hurling county

Dirty Dingus McGee

I can't believe Cavan has that many people living in it.

Jayop

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I can't believe Cavan has that many people living in it.

I thought it would be more. There's a ton of decent sized towns in cavan, but the county town is pretty small.

LeinsterDub

What about London?

Jayop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What about London?

Computer says no.

davegrohl48

Nice work. The numbers for Tyrone and Armagh seem high.
The only aspect that smaller counties can compete in is skill and teamwork.
How many top natural athletes in counties with less than 80k? You cannot turn anyone into an MDMA or James ODonoghue. Requires a base level of natural speed and power. Training just brings you closer to your genetic ceiling of improvement.

Road-Hog

Nobody obviously lives in Kilkenny?

Not listed at all??

timmyntc

It's kind of instinctive to look at those results and go "More population = Better players etc." however as we should all know correlation != causation. Granted there is *some* relation between population and football standing, however this could be any number of things. Could be that more people generally leads to a larger playing population within the county, or perhaps its the greater financial support that follows from a larger base of supporters?

In some cases this proves definitely that the structures that you set in place for youth players and training facilities have a big impact, as how else could teams like Kerry or Mayo punch consistenly 'above their weight'? It certainly ain't something in the water.

davegrohl48

Road-Hog wrote: »

Nobody obviously lives in Kilkenny?

Not listed at all??

They only play football at junior level.

Jayop

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Nice work. The numbers for Tyrone and Armagh seem high.
The only aspect that smaller counties can compete in is skill and teamwork.
How many top natural athletes in counties with less than 80k? You cannot turn anyone into an MDMA or James ODonoghue. Requires a base level of natural speed and power. Training just brings you closer to your genetic ceiling of improvement.

Monaghan are really amazing in that regard. They've managed to unearth a couple of super talented footballers, 1/2 of whom would grace any side, but they've got a system and a physicality which has enabled them to leapfrog 25/26 counties.

sabhail

So 3 of bottom six got to quarters.,..

Really interesting table. If pop was all tho, Dublin would win lots more..

You'd wonder is there some way of providing coaches say on basis of x coaches per head of population or playing population... .. Prob completely impractical and costly tho.

tradition plays a huge part too..not to mention lucky? Co incidence of great players and coaches.

If you were on county board of division 3 etc tho surely you'd be looking at could ties currently operating above their weight..

askU

32 counties........Wheres kilkenny?

Jayop

sabhail wrote: »

So three of bottom six got to quarters ..one to semi...

Two of the bottom 6 got to Quarters. None are in a semi yet.

Jayop

askU wrote: »

32 counties........Wheres kilkenny?

They don't have a senior county football team.

davegrohl48

Jayop wrote: »

Monaghan are really amazing in that regard. They've managed to unearth a couple of super talented footballers, 1/2 of whom would grace any side, but they've got a system and a physicality which has enabled them to leapfrog 25/26 counties.

Yes agreed on that. In terms of physical side they've hit the weights and protein shakes. But they lack the pace of Dublin/Kerry/Mayo.
But their dedication to being better team wise and skill wise is admirable.

Jayop

timmyntc wrote: »

It's kind of instinctive to look at those results and go "More population = Better players etc." however as we should all know correlation != causation. Granted there is *some* relation between population and football standing, however this could be any number of things. Could be that more people generally leads to a larger playing population within the county, or perhaps its the greater financial support that follows from a larger base of supporters?

In some cases this proves definitely that the structures that you set in place for youth players and training facilities have a big impact, as how else could teams like Kerry or Mayo punch consistenly 'above their weight'? It certainly ain't something in the water.

History and tradition count for a lot as well as playing numbers and financial resources. I wouldn't think there's too many counties in Ireland that outspend Kerry or Mayo, and probably not too many with bigger pools of players.

K-9

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Nice work. The numbers for Tyrone and Armagh seem high.
The only aspect that smaller counties can compete in is skill and teamwork.
How many top natural athletes in counties with less than 80k? You cannot turn anyone into an MDMA or James ODonoghue. Requires a base level of natural speed and power. Training just brings you closer to your genetic ceiling of improvement.

Obligatory mention of Unionist populations not mentioned.

In that regard Fermanagh are doing great stuff the last 15 years or so. 1 Semi final, 2 quarters and played in Division 1.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Jayop

K-9 wrote: »

Obligatory mention of Unionist populations not mentioned.

In that regard Fermanagh are doing great stuff the last 15 years or so. 1 Semi final, 2 quarters and played in Division 1.

TBF I did mention it in the OP but only for Antrim. I think there's 4 of the northern 6 with bigger nationalist numbers anyway and only Antrim and Down are really heavily effected by that. Antrim should still have the population to cope but I guess they're way more of a hurling county.

Down have a great history so they've been fine.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

cj maxx

Jayop wrote: »

Noticed this post in the All-Ireland thread and upon looking at it it's remarkable how close the population tallies to counties standing in football.

I'm colour coding the list to show.



Division 1
Division 2
Division 3
Division 4

1 Dublin 1,273,069
2 Antrim 618,108
3 Down 531,665
4 Cork 519,032
5 Galway 250,541
6 Derry 247,132
7 Kildare 210,312
8 Limerick 191,809
9 Meath 184,135
10 Tyrone 179,000
11 Armagh 174,792
12 Donegal 161,137
13 Tipperary 158,754
14 Kerry 145,502
15 Wexford 145,320
16 Wicklow 136,640
17 Mayo 130,638
18 Louth 122,897
19 Clare 117,196
20 Waterford 113,795
22 Westmeath 86,164
23 Laois 80,559
24 Offaly 76,687
25 Cavan 73,183
26 Sligo 65,393
27 Roscommon64,065
28 Fermanagh 61,170
29 Monaghan 60,483
30 Carlow 54,612
31 Longford 39,000
32 Leitrim 31,796

As expected

5 of the top 6 counties by population are Div 1 & 2
9 of the top 12 counties by population are Div 1 & 2
The bottom 3 counties are all Division 3 & 4.
8 of the middle 16 counties are Div 2 & 3

There's counties of course punching above their weight.

Monaghan and Roscommon with the 6th and 4th lowest population in the county are in Div 1.
Fermanagh with the 5th lowest are in Div 2 and got to the last 16 in the AI this year.


And counties who have big populations but low standing.
Antrim - mainly unionist county with a big hurling culture
Kildare - No excuse, football county with 7th biggest population should be better.
Limerick - Hurling county
Tipp - Hurling county

Thanks
With all the talk about championship systems it shows how much size/ population plays in it .
Apart from Kerry it seem !!

Jayop

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

21 is missing.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

askU

Jayop wrote: »

They don't have a senior county football team.

should be 31 counties then?

davegrohl48

cjmc wrote: »

Thanks
With all the talk about championship systems it shows how much size/ population plays in it .
Apart from Kerry it seem !!

Kerry and Mayo have massive participation unlike a county like Kildare.
There are no Knockmores or Garrymores or Ballintubbers in most counties. Knockmore has no town to speak of neither Garrymore. Aghamore no real town just a village.

askU

Jayop wrote: »

21 is missing.

who is 21 meant be?

Jayop

askU wrote: »

should be 31 counties then?

There is. I just deleted Kilkenny at 21 and it was a cut and paste list. Colouring it in was plenty time consuming without reordering a load of numbers.

Jayop

askU wrote: »

who is 21 meant be?

Kilkenny

K-9

Jayop wrote: »

TBF I did mention it in the OP but only for Antrim. I think there's 4 of the northern 6 with bigger nationalist numbers anyway and only Antrim and Down are really heavily effected by that. Antrim should still have the population to cope but I guess they're way more of a hurling county.

Down have a great history so they've been fine.

Significant minorities though.

Hurling doesn't have as big an impact as I thought, Offaly the only hurling county in the bottom 10.

Jayop

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Kerry and Mayo have massive participation unlike a county like Kildare.
There are no Knockmores or Garrymores or Ballintubbers in most counties. Knockmore has no town to speak of neither Garrymore. Aghamore no real town just a village.

Some of the club teams are just massive anomalies. Bridgets in Roscommon and even Cross in Armagh.

Jayop

K-9 wrote: »

Significant minorities though.

Hurling doesn't have as big an impact as I thought, Offaly the only hurling county in the bottom 10.

Agreed on both counts.

Ulster football is strong despite the significant minorites who don't support it, but I suppose with the counties being large the size of the potential sponsors is less limited by the religious divide.

By that I mean that, for example, Armagh's sponsor Rainbow communications still has 175k customers to earn money from that it can afford to sponsor the team from regardless of whether they follow GAA or not.

Hammar

Interesting thread Jayop,

Fermanagh is about 55% nationalist,so their population pick would be 30-35,000. It shows what a great achievement it is for them to reach an All Ireland Quarter Final.

nice_guy80

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Kerry and Mayo have massive participation unlike a county like Kildare.
There are no Knockmores or Garrymores or Ballintubbers in most counties. Knockmore has no town to speak of neither Garrymore. Aghamore no real town just a village.

Mayo also steal clubs from.neighbouring counties

Jayop

A real sore spot down here!!

Mantis Toboggan

Surprised with the population of Down. Didn't think it was bigger than Cork.

Similarly with hurling there is a correlation with good agricultural land and good hurling.

davegrohl48

Jayop wrote: »

Some of the club teams are just massive anomalies. Bridgets in Roscommon and even Cross in Armagh.

Garrymore has been an unbelievable 40 year story. Genuinely a tiny pick. Way below almost all clubs in Mayo. Yet still stick in there at Senior level. Even have County titles. Would be way below others at underage but they stick with it nice and steady.

ixus

Better to do it by number of clubs per county. 42 football in kildare.

Mantis Toboggan

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Garrymore has been an unbelievable 40 year story. Genuinely a tiny pick. Way below almost all clubs in Mayo. Yet still stick in there at Senior level. Even have County titles. Would be way below others at underage but they stick with it nice and steady.

Like Loughmore in tipperary, barely 200 in the parish and a few years ago they were senior hurling and football champions in the same year. Some club. Then big towns like clonmel and tipp town couldn't produce a hurler between then.

Jayop

ixus wrote: »

Better to do it by number of clubs per county. 42 football in kildare.

I'll try to do that at some stage tomorrow and append it to the OP.

davegrohl48

Jayop wrote: »

Some of the club teams are just massive anomalies. Bridgets in Roscommon and even Cross in Armagh.

Garrymore has been an unbelievable 40 year story. Genuinely a tiny pick. Way below almost all clubs in Mayo. Yet still stick in there at Senior level. Even have County titles. Would be way below others at underage but they stick with it nice and steady.

LeinsterDub

Jayop wrote: »

I'll try to do that at some stage tomorrow and append it to the OP.

What does number of clubs illustrate? Dublin has a number of super clubs with thousands of members. You can't pick random fact in isolation and compare them.

Mervyn Skidmore

I think number of clubs is very important. Other factors can come into play too in smaller counties. My own county Sligo has a massive soccer fanbase who have no interest whatsoever in GAA.

Hammar

Dennis Reynolds wrote: »

Surprised with the population of Down. Didn't think it was bigger than Cork.

Similarly with hurling there is a correlation with good agricultural land and good hurling.

You have to remember however that there is very little GAA in North Down, Bangor,Comber,Newtownards,Dundonald and Donaghadee would not exactly be awash with GAA fanatics. That's probably close to 150,000 alone in population. with only minimal interest.That's not even taking into account East Belfast.

Cosmo Kramer

There's more to it than just population but the list is still interesting to have a look at. Most football counties' supporters would have hopes of seeing their county winning an all Ireland some day but in reality the numbers show that no county below number 14 in that list has won one for over 30 years. Possibly, for any county with a population of under 100,000, as a result of more developed structures and better use today of the resources that have always been available to more populous counties, winning a football All Ireland has become an impossible task.

I saw a stat recently which said that the last time Mayo won an All Ireland it was the fifth most populated county in the country at the time. I have no doubt that if it was still the fifth most populated county we'd have won a few more since then.

Cosmo Kramer

Hammar wrote: »

Interesting thread Jayop,

Fermanagh is about 55% nationalist,so their population pick would be 30-35,000. It shows what a great achievement it is for them to reach an All Ireland Quarter Final.

It is, I remember a comment from their CB chairman back when they were going well in 2004 something along the lines of "Shur half the county is water and half the other half is protestant"... I thought it was a good line at the time.

feargale

New York?????

Jayop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What does number of clubs illustrate? Dublin has a number of super clubs with thousands of members. You can't pick random fact in isolation and compare them.

But it wouldn't be looking at it in isolation. It would be the opposite I'm fact as it be attempting to collate different sets of data.

The thing about mayo bring the fifth most populous County when they last one is intriguing. I'll have to look at that too with counties like cavan who won their last the year before mayo won theirs.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Mayo also steal clubs from.neighbouring counties

Not this ****e again.

Fr Tod Umptious

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

There's more to it than just population but the list is still interesting to have a look at. Most football counties' supporters would have hopes of seeing their county winning an all Ireland some day but in reality the numbers show that no county below number 14 in that list has won one for over 30 years. Possibly, for any county with a population of under 100,000, as a result of more developed structures and better use today of the resources that have always been available to more populous counties, winning a football All Ireland has become an impossible task.

I saw a stat recently which said that the last time Mayo won an All Ireland it was the fifth most populated county in the country at the time. I have no doubt that if it was still the fifth most populated county we'd have won a few more since then.

Ah come on, quit with the excuses

Clubs and the amount of football played also have a big factor of course as people are saying.

I onced asked an old Mayo man living here in Kerry about what the difference between Mayo and Kerry were and he said that he found there was far more football being played in Kerry.

I dont know what its like elsewhere but each club would play the following competitions in Kerry.

County league
Club championship (junior, intermediate, or senior)
County championship (clubs that are not senior may have players on the divisional team)
Divisional championship
Divisional league.

That means that you are playing football from March to new year's day

Tom Joad

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I can't believe Cavan has that many people living in it.

I'd say 15k of them are recent arrivals (Celtic tiger Dubs stealing our cheap houses around East Cavan/ Ballyjamesdublin ).

Interesting comparison but none of these are perfect and don't take other variables into account. What would be very interesting to put beside the population is no of clubs/ club membership.

LeinsterDub

Jayop wrote: »

But it wouldn't be looking at it in isolation. It would be the opposite I'm fact as it be attempting to collate different sets of data.

https://twitter.com/europegaa/status/450647697557422082/photo/1

Now what , Cork's lack of recent success is due to too many clubs? Dublin people to clubs ratio capita number of clubs is on of the lowest so what?