Pedestrianising O'Connell Street

zulutango

As we know, there are plans to pedestrianise sections of O'Connell Street, namely the section where Brown Thomas is and the next block up, where all the junk food outlets are.

While I'd love to see it pedestrianised and refurbished, as I think O'Connell Street is a pale shadow of its former glory these days (quite a kip really), there is a significant challenge in diverting traffic.

O'Connell Street seems to be the main artery for traffic travelling from the Corbally / Westbury / King's Island side of the city through to pretty much anywhere else. How's that going to get through or around the city?

A solution might be to make Henry Street a two-way? The council have talked about an 'orbital route' for many years but I can't see how it's going to solve the problem. It involves diverting traffic via Gerald Griffin Street and Parnell Street. Whatever the solution it's going to involve a big rethink about how traffic works in the city.

phog

Banning traffic without suitable alternatives will achieve nothing only add to gridlock elsewhere.

Mr.H

Hasnt the "Orbital Route" already been created. Running from the horse and hound down sexton street and splitting between Parnell street and Roches street.

I dont think much needs to be done to be honest. A lot of the traffic is already being diverted out of the city. Some work still needs to be done to get people from the Ennis road side to the University and the Regional without going through the city center though. I would hate to see Henry street turned into a 2 way again.

Mr.H

phog wrote: »

Banning traffic without suitable alternatives will achieve nothing only add to gridlock elsewhere.

Yea I really think they need to sort out traffic plans first. They need to eliminate unnecessary traffic (people not actually going to the city to stop in the city). That being said parking for the people trying to visit needs to be fixed also

zulutango

Yeah, the orbital route is done. The problem is that it's not really an orbital route at all. Divert the daytime O'Connell Street traffic onto it and you'll have total gridlock. It just won't fly.

Cookiemunster

Mr.H wrote: »

Hasnt the "Orbital Route" already been created. Running from the horse and hound down sexton street and splitting between Parnell street and Roches street.

I dont think much needs to be done to be honest. A lot of the traffic is already being diverted out of the city. Some work still needs to be done to get people from the Ennis road side to the University and the Regional without going through the city center though. I would hate to see Henry street turned into a 2 way again.

Dock Rd and N18/M20 for the hosptial or N18/M7 for the University. Or avoid the Dock Rd. and just use the tunnel. There is no need to travel through the city center.

Mr.H

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Dock Rd and N18/M20 for the hosptial or N18/M7 for the University. Or avoid the Dock Rd. and just use the tunnel. There is no need to travel through the city center.

Motorways dont always suit everyone but yea there is routes in place your right. I was thinking more smaller routes to deal with lets say people coming out of the maternity and wanting to bypass the city center. I would like if Thomond bridge was turned into a one way with an alternative bridge built down around there when redevelopments to start on Kings Island. That are could take a lot of traffic away from the city center and create a route to the University and Corbally

phog

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Dock Rd and N18/M20 for the hosptial or N18/M7 for the University. Or avoid the Dock Rd. and just use the tunnel. There is no need to travel through the city center.

Getting onto/off the bypass from the city is close to being a nightmare, the design was really a bypass rather than aiding in removing traffic from the city.

The Tipp road can have tailbacks out to the junction with the bypass, this traffic then joins the orbital route at the Horse and Hound.

No access onto the bypass for North bound traffic at the Limerick Inn means extra traffic using Condell Rd and he Caherdavin toll booth, probably means driving via the city is as good an option.

The bypass from Coonagh X to Dublin Rd needs to be completed before you can remove any more traffic from the city.

Making Park Rd one way isn't going to do many favours for Corbally traffic either.

zulutango

phog wrote: »

The bypass from Coonagh X to Dublin Rd needs to be completed before you can remove any more traffic from the city.

You mean the Limerick Northern Distributor Road, which LCCC councillors rejected last week? Do you reckon pedestrianisation can't happen until this is done?

flyingsnail

I presume the point of pedestrianisation is to bring more people into the city centre, if you remove one of the main traffic routes in the city without providing a viable alternative you will just end up with a grid locked city centre that will drive people away rather than bring them in.

I think that the orbital route mentioned earlier of horse and hound ,sexton street and Parnell street and Roches street could work for city centre traffic but you need to give the traffic that currently uses that route an alternative. The N18/M7 route regularly has large tailbacks at pretty much all of the exits and offers rather poor connectivity to the northern part of the city.

phog

zulutango wrote: »

You mean the Limerick Northern Distributor Road, which LCCC councillors rejected last week? Do you reckon pedestrianisation can't happen until this is done?

Anything can happen but if you want to cater for the traffic as well as the pedestrians then this route is a must.

Cookiemunster

phog wrote: »

Getting onto/off the bypass from the city is close to being a nightmare, the design was really a bypass rather than aiding in removing traffic from the city.

Mr. H was talking about getting to the University from the Ennis Rd avoiding the city center. It's very possible using the routes I suggested.

phog wrote: »

The Tipp road can have tailbacks out to the junction with the bypass, this traffic then joins the orbital route at the Horse and Hound.

Again that has nothing to do with what I was pointing out. From that junction you turn right at the roundabout and go straight to the Groody Roundabout. You're not affected by traffic going into the city.

phog wrote: »

No access onto the bypass for North bound traffic at the Limerick Inn means extra traffic using Condell Rd and he Caherdavin toll booth, probably means driving via the city is as good an option.

There's very little between the Radison and the Coonagh roundabout to create extra traffic, so I don't see the issue with using the Caherdavin toll booth. You'd have to use the main line toll booth anyway if you could join at the Radison.

phog

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Mr. H was talking about getting to the University from the Ennis Rd avoiding the city center. It's very possible using the routes I suggested.



Again that has nothing to do with what I was pointing out. From that junction you turn right at the roundabout and go straight to the Groody Roundabout. You're not affected by traffic going into the city.



There's very little between the Radison and the Coonagh roundabout to create extra traffic, so I don't see the issue with using the Caherdavin toll booth. You'd have to use the main line toll booth anyway if you could join at the Radison.

Actually, he said "Ennis Road side"

I took that to mean anyone coming in from the Clare side of the city.

As I said earlier if the Northern Ring road was completed it would cater for a lot if that traffic getting to the Castletroy side of the city.

The biggest issue for me is the Corbally Road and the traffic that brings straight into the city, it caters for a high volume of traffic from East Clare and all the estates that have been developed out as far as Westbury.

Cityslicker1

I can't see how this will be a success. Only for the constant flow of traffic on O'Connell street especially after 6pm the city centre would be eerily dead-the footpaths are empty but at least there's a flow of traffic. It'll be just like Cruises street in the evenings so the city centre will feel deserted.

There are no shops on that section to give the area a vibrant buzz.
If it was to be pedestrianised it will just highlight even more how quiet the city centre can be having a wide open empty space.

Re modelling works like high quality pavements, street furniture, lots of trees and traffic calming measures like speed bumps would be more effective for a street as long and wide as O'Connell st.

The pedestriansing of William street would make more sense considering there's some element of shopping there.

steveon

Cityslicker1 wrote: »

I can't see how this will be a success. Only for the constant flow of traffic on O'Connell street especially after 6pm the city centre would be eerily dead-the footpaths are empty but at least there's a flow of traffic. It'll be just like Cruises street in the evenings so the city centre will feel deserted.

There are no shops on that section to give the area a vibrant buzz.
If it was to be pedestrianised it will just highlight even more how quiet the city centre can be having a wide open empty space.

Re modelling works like high quality pavements, street furniture, lots of trees and traffic calming measures like speed bumps would be more effective for a street as long and wide as O'Connell st.

The pedestriansing of William street would make more sense considering there's some element of shopping there.

Totally agree with you almost all of O Connell street parking spaces are used up at nite for people coming into town and getting food, I have just this minute walked up the street and not a space to be had, pedestrianize it and the fast food outlets will suffer big time.

The northern road should be built first to get people off the road and from coming in the city, not everyone can afford the toll every single day, people like me who work on the roads cannot pay a Toll each and every time we cross from where I live to caherdavin, especially when the toll road will take me longer as I cannot get off where I sometimes need to get to and can go through the city as a result.

The more streets they pedestrianize the less people who will come into town, as they will simply continue to use the shopping malls for ease of shopping and free car parking, we have already lost tons of spaces for the bikes which is great but what they have created outside penny's is a death trap waiting to happen as people are zig zagging all over the place even more so than before..

The orbital ring road is the biggest joke ever done, non stop tailbacks there and this is before they tackle Parnell street making it narrower which will once again slow the flow of traffic and again cause even more tailbacks, the road should never have been diverted along the side of two schools this is exactly where children should feel safe to cycle and would have if that road was left as it is, now like outside penny's is a death trap.

What we need is road planners who are from Limerick not idiots in Dublin or beyond that dont use our streets...

Buckeye

Tear down the blocks with the buildings that are the worst (crumbling, damp, unable to be modernised due to costs), whichever strip of city blocks that happens to be, and create a four-lane boulevard.

Two centre lanes for pass-through traffic, two outside lanes for buses and bikes (or, bikes lanes, two lanes for cars, two inside lanes for streetcars...such a dream...).

O'Connell Street would be the obvious choice, if someone could get buy-in for tearing down the city blocks on one side of the street.

Cookiemunster

Buckeye wrote: »

Tear down the blocks with the buildings that are the worst (crumbling, damp, unable to be modernised due to costs), whichever strip of city blocks that happens to be, and create a four-lane boulevard.

Two centre lanes for pass-through traffic, two outside lanes for buses and bikes (or, bikes lanes, two lanes for cars, two inside lanes for streetcars...such a dream...).

O'Connell Street would be the obvious choice, if someone could get buy-in for tearing down the city blocks on one side of the street.

What buildings on O'Connell St. are crumbling, damp and unable to be modernised?
How far do you want to go 4 lanes? All the way out to O'Connell Ave?
There is simply no need for such a drastic plan. Leaving aside the fact that all these buildings are privately owned would cost 10s of millions to purchase.

zulutango

There's difficulties with the buildings on O'Connell Street in terms of using them for office, retail or residential purposes but knocking them isn't much of an option either given their heritage value.

Anyway, as Cookiemunster says, knocking buildings would be a drastic solution to a fairly minor traffic problem. Through traffic isn't good for cities anyway, and it's a much better plan to route as much traffic as possible away from the heart of city centre. In Limerick many people have the opposite impression, probably because Cruise's Street is dead and foreboding after 6pm, but it's really not a good example of how things should be done. In general, pedestrianisation can be very good for cities if done correctly. There's countless examples throughout Europe, where old cities like ours have been very successfully reinvigorated by removing cars and facilitating pedestrians and cyclists.

The question is, how do we do it in Limerick?

On the cycling aspect, a particularly inspiring video about how Groningen in the Netherlands (a much bigger city than Limerick) was transformed from being very car dependent to one where 60% of all journeys are made by bike. It's quite remarkable and well worth a watch.

https://vimeo.com/76207227

Here's a good article from The Guardian about the same city - http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jul/29/how-groningen-invented-a-cycling-template-for-cities-all-over-the-world

zulutango

This is back on the agenda according to the Limerick Leader. Can't post the article (I'm using the phone to post this) but the plan has been taken off the shelf and dusted down it seems. I think it needs to happen but I'm very interested to hear how they plan on dealing with traffic going to/from the Corbally side of the city.

Poxyshamrock

I'm against it. I don't think town is busy enough for it. I work on Bedford Row and half the time it is just so quiet and soulless, it's depressing. I'm all for smarter travel and ditching the car but I just feel it'll make the street so quiet. Also, Limerick Council don't know how to manage pedestrian streets. Bedford Row and Thomas Street are a free for all with parking on Sundays. It's either pedestrianised or it's not.

zulutango

While sharing your deep skepticism of the Council's ability to make it work, I think it needs to happen alright. I'd like to see it happen in conjunction with serious moves to get people living in the centre again. That's the way to keep our streets alive. What can the Council do in that regard though? There's the Living Cities initiative for starters but not sure what else.

phog

I can't see a benefit to closing O'Connell St to traffic. Who/what gains?

Perhaps, if we turned the world on it's head and got people to move house and live in the city then there might be some need. Even then I can't see the need for it.

Mc Love

It's ridiculous

Jofspring

Upgrading the footpaths, lighting and having decent cycle lanes to co-incide with the bike scheme should be more than enough to improve O'Connell street. Going from one extreme to the other is not needed. I'd also say introduce a cycle lane on Henry street and William Street too. That's the three main streets through town covered and would make cycling through and around the city centre far more appealing and would take away spme bit of traffic.

Cruises St, Bedford Row and half of Thomas St are all pedestrianised and that's enough.

The only problem with Limerick city centre, and I'm talking about William street in particular is the management of traffic. There is absolutely no problem with cars moving through two main streets in town but when you let it be a free for all for double parking that's when it gets messy and dangerous. i actually drove up town last week, traffic the whole way up the left hand lane of William St, down onto sarsfield St and over the bridge all because of double parking on William St in the right hand lane the whole way up. To make it worse the gardai were in the car in front of me and just completely ignored it. Outside the Savoy Hotel is a disgrace also, set down used as parking and the right hand lane on Henry street then used as a set down/drop off because of this. If the hotel don't use that space correctly it should be either taken off them or fines imposed.

phog

The & van making their morning delivery to Hook & Ladder will park on the righthand lane of Sarsfield St blocking the full lane. This in turn causes some of the backlog onto Henry St, Sarsfield Bridge, Ennis Rd and Clancy Strand.

Vanquished

It's not a straightforward issue and I'm not fully convinced of the merits of pedestrianising the central portion of O'Connell Street right now. It's a radical proposal and it would result in a drastic alteration to the city centre traffic system.

That in itself is not necessarily a bad thing but in order for such a project to be in any way feasible we would require a comprehensive strategy to redistribute the traffic that would be impacted upon. Bus and cycle infrastructure would also need to be improved dramatically in order to ensure access to the centre is not negatively impacted.

For the moment I would focus upon a comprehensive upgrade of the streetscape from Bank Place all the way up to the Crescent consisting of wide pavements of high quality materials, new public lighting and adequate levels of street furniture. I would also heavily restrict parking along a reconfigured O'Connell Street to achieve as attractive a pedestrian environment as possible.

Poxyshamrock

phog wrote: »

The & van making their morning delivery to Hook & Ladder will park on the righthand lane of Sarsfield St blocking the full lane. This in turn causes some of the backlog onto Henry St, Sarsfield Bridge, Ennis Rd and Clancy Strand.

Surely they could just use the part of the bus stop outside Martin's pub or even the taxi rank up the street a bit.

Jofspring wrote: »

Outside the Savoy Hotel is a disgrace also, set down used as parking and the right hand lane on Henry street then used as a set down/drop off because of this. If the hotel don't use that space correctly it should be either taken off them or fines imposed.

Totally agree with you. People reversing out onto a lane of Henry Street is an accident waiting to happen. Why can't they just make cars drive in parallel to the kerb/hotel and pick up/drop off. It looks awful with all those cones and tape anyway. You should see how their staff treat the lane out the back!!!

Vanquished wrote: »

For the moment I would focus upon a comprehensive upgrade of the streetscape from Bank Place all the way up to the Crescent consisting of wide pavements of high quality materials, new public lighting and adequate levels of street furniture. I would also heavily restrict parking along a reconfigured O'Connell Street to achieve as attractive a pedestrian environment as possible.

I would widen footpaths and reduce parking, install bike lanes as well. I would give pedestrians and cyclists more priority without completely restricting cars.

zulutango

Do we need two lanes of traffic going up the street? Maybe reduce it to a single lane.

There may be scope to turn Henry Street and the road by Arthur's Quay into two-way streets to take a chunk of the traffic that would otherwise go down O'Connell Street. Then you could reduce Sarsfield Street and O'Connell Street to single lanes and bring in wider footpaths and cycle lanes on them.

Your problem then would be dealing with the current Henry Street volumes. Could you reverse a lane and still get the volumes through? I think so, but obviously a detailed analysis would be required.

Mr.H

phog wrote: »

I can't see a benefit to closing O'Connell St to traffic. Who/what gains?

Perhaps, if we turned the world on it's head and got people to move house and live in the city then there might be some need. Even then I can't see the need for it.

The shopper and the business

• The shopper gets the freedom of being able to walk freely on a street without traffic
  
• New businesses will be encouraged to bring their services out to the street ie: Cafe's, Restaurants, Bars etc.
  
• Business in the area get a higher footfall from pedestrianised streets. People actually go to pedestrianised areas more because they are pedestrianised. Its a "comfort factor"

I am telling you straight out that anyone who has actually studied these types of urban environments will not be against this change as they would know the benefits.

What about people going form one side of the city to the other? Their journeys will become longer................... Who cares. Its about making the city a better place to live and work. Its nothing to do with your journey now taking an extra 5 or 10 mins to go around the city instead of through it.

In fact the only negative is the fact that people think shoppers will avoid a city that has no cars........................... If you really believe that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Cities that cater for pedestrians over traffic tend to do better. Most of the traffic going through the city are not even using the city so why not redirect them around the city instead of through it. Makes perfect sense.

What is the busiest street in Ireland??????????????????????? anyone???

Jofspring

But we already have loads of cafes, restaurants, shops etc. on the already pedestrianised streets.

What are the figures for pedestrianised street footfall compared to ones with traffic going through them? I wouldn't know where to start to get that.

For example how many more people have used Bedford Row and Thomas Street since being pedestrianised?

Bedford Row has had a big turn over in businesses since it re-opened as a pedestrian street so have they really reaped the rewards of it? Cruises street has probably had the highest turn over of businesses as well and that's pedestrianised. The street is empty most the week also.

People will always have an excuse not to go to town also, weather, parking, having to actually walk more than 10 yards to go to a shop and on and on.

Cookiemunster

Jofspring wrote: »

But we already have loads of cafes, restaurants, shops etc. on the already pedestrianised streets.

What are the figures for pedestrianised street footfall compared to ones with traffic going through them? I wouldn't know where to start to get that.

For example how many more people have used Bedford Row and Thomas Street since being pedestrianised?

Bedford Row has had a big turn over in businesses since it re-opened as a pedestrian street so have they really reaped the rewards of it? Cruises street has probably had the highest turn over of businesses as well and that's pedestrianised. The street is empty most the week also.

People will always have an excuse not to go to town also, weather, parking, having to actually walk more than 10 yards to go to a shop and on and on.

So do you think these streets would be better off if they were still dilapidated with traffic clogging them and cars parked everywhere?
Thomas Street and Bedford Row are vastly better spaces since the pedestrianisation.