Pedestrianising O'Connell Street

zulutango

Jofspring wrote: »

For example how many more people have used Bedford Row and Thomas Street since being pedestrianised?

Not being smart with you, but do you remember Bedford Row before? I can't imagine it was doing better before it was pedestrianised. You'd have to ask one of the business owners I guess, but it really was a bit of a disaster back then. As for Thomas Street, it seems quite busy. I really find it hard to believe that allowing cars up here really does much for business on the street.

Jofspring wrote: »

Bedford Row has had a big turn over in businesses since it re-opened as a pedestrian street so have they really reaped the rewards of it? Cruises street has probably had the highest turn over of businesses as well and that's pedestrianised. The street is empty most the week also.

I don't think the pedestrianisation and high turnover are as related as you imply. Cruises Street was poorly designed. And Bedford Row has a big Celtic Development on it that probably demands high rents and that's where the turnover of businesses has been.

Jofspring

Cookiemunster wrote: »

So do you think these streets would be better off if they were still dilapidated with traffic clogging them and cars parked everywhere?
Thomas Street and Bedford Row are vastly better spaces since the pedestrianisation.

No as I said in my previous post, better traffic management and upgrading what's there will do a fine job also.

I'm genuinely asking where would you get the figures to compare because with out them most of us here have to just look at what we physically see on the streets with nothing to compare to.

Jofspring

zulutango wrote: »

Not being smart with you, but do you remember Bedford Row before? I can't imagine it was doing better before it was pedestrianised. You'd have to ask one of the business owners I guess, but it really was a bit of a disaster back then. As for Thomas Street, it seems quite busy. I really find it hard to believe that allowing cars up here really does much for business on the street.




I don't think the pedestrianisation and high turnover are as related as you imply. Cruises Street was poorly designed. And Bedford Row has a big Celtic Development on it that probably demands high rents and that's where the turnover of businesses has been.

Agree Bedford row was a dump previously but again we'd need to see proper figures to compare. Most the businesses on it weren't there previously. Did those businesses come in because of the pedestrian street or because of the new buildings that were developed?

That's what I mean, serious research would need to be shown for us to really know if it is worth while. Mr.H was saying iif people saw the studies they would know. Where could these studies be seen?

Why not develop O'Connell street similar to Patrick's St. in Cork? Keep the road flowing through with bigger footpaths, and add a bicycle lane.

zulutango

Jofspring wrote: »

I'm genuinely asking where would you get the figures to compare because with out them most of us here have to just look at what we physically see on the streets with nothing to compare to.

It's a fair question, but I don't think you'll find the figures you're looking for simply because every city is different and there's loads of variables at play to the point where comparing different developments in different cities has no real meaning. It's not a hard science. There's fairly sound design principles though and I'll try and dig out some later for you.

I've posted it before, but I'd encourage anybody to look at this video about how a Dutch city was transformed from a congested, car-dependent one to a thriving one where pedestrians and cyclists are given priority over cars in the city centre.

https://vimeo.com/76207227

Poxyshamrock

zulutango wrote: »

I don't think the pedestrianisation and high turnover are as related as you imply. Cruises Street was poorly designed. And Bedford Row has a big Celtic Development on it that probably demands high rents and that's where the turnover of businesses has been.

Pamela Scott is proof of that. There is also the Tom Tailor unit which has yet to be filled and Tony Connolly's sale shop was only ever a temporary letting and they're still there.

phog

Mr.H wrote: »

The shopper and the business

• The shopper gets the freedom of being able to walk freely on a street without traffic
  
• New businesses will be encouraged to bring their services out to the street ie: Cafe's, Restaurants, Bars etc.
  
• Business in the area get a higher footfall from pedestrianised streets. People actually go to pedestrianised areas more because they are pedestrianised. Its a "comfort factor"

We've 2.5 streets in Limerick that are reserved for pedestrians during business hours. Let's make these a success first before trying to block traffic in one of the main streets.

Do we really need more bars and cafe's in town? If that's the measure of success then Limerick is booming

I am telling you straight out that anyone who has actually studied these types of urban environments will not be against this change as they would know the benefits.

What about people going form one side of the city to the other? Their journeys will become longer................... Who cares. Its about making the city a better place to live and work. Its nothing to do with your journey now taking an extra 5 or 10 mins to go around the city instead of through it.

In fact the only negative is the fact that people think shoppers will avoid a city that has no cars........................... If you really believe that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Cities that cater for pedestrians over traffic tend to do better. Most of the traffic going through the city are not even using the city so why not redirect them around the city instead of through it. Makes perfect sense.

I've no issue with redirecting traffic but that needs to be done before we go arsing about with more traffic restrictions in town.

Limerick city is a small city with a tiny population living in the city, the foot fall won't come from that population it will come form people that live elsewhere and want to come to the city. For those people if access is blocked or made more difficult then they will vote with their feet and head to the Shopping Centres in the suburbs.

What is the busiest street in Ireland??????????????????????? anyone???

Replicate that business model on Cruises Street and we'll be laughing.

Jofspring

zulutango wrote: »

It's a fair question, but I don't think you'll find the figures you're looking for simply because every city is different and there's loads of variables at play to the point where comparing different developments in different cities has no real meaning. It's not a hard science. There's fairly sound design principles though and I'll try and dig out some later for you.

I've posted it before, but I'd encourage anybody to look at this video about how a Dutch city was transformed from a congested, car-dependent one to a thriving one where pedestrians and cyclists are given priority over cars in the city centre.

https://vimeo.com/76207227

Will definitely have a watch of that later, thanks.

zulutango

The plans are moving a step closer - http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/208126/New-O-Connell-Street-in-Limerick.html

phog

Another huge waste of money

Berty

Saw the image, people meandering down the pedestrian street with a bus barrelling down the "pedestrian street" towards them.

IF, just IF this can be like Galways Shop street then the street closes to Commercial Traffic at 10am (deliveries etc) and you Cannot get onto the street unlike our stupid pedestrian street where people seem to get onto them any time and park.

I don't mind if traffic has to find ways around, the city isn't pedestrian friendly. The only thing that investment can't seem to change are bums and scumbags who will never be drawn into what the streetscape would look like because they won't go away.

phog

The two blocks that they intend to pedestrianise are almost full of retail units of some sort of another at the moment.

The three that I can think of as being vacant are Black Tie, old Dunnes and olkd Munster rugby store which is being renovated.

What's the benefit to the street in stopping traffic from using it?

If they are serious about spending millions on pedestrianising the street then they need to ensure the traffic that currently use the William St junction has free flow elsewhere.

They also need to ensure the city is policed to a standard where the likes of the street bawl that went viral yesterday doesn't happen.

The issues with footfall on our streets has little to do with traffic sharing the streets.

vkid

They cant make it any worse. Leave the state of the footpaths and overall streetscape aside for a minute and its still not a nice environment to be in. Lets look at the Urban Garden (scene of the great burrito wars of 2016), Its not exactly a nice place to watch the world go by...its bordered by two lanes of traffic, cars, trucks, buses etc from one end of the day to the other. If you take that out of a big chunk of O'Connell Street, you might actually have a nice relaxed public space. I like Thomas Street and Bedford Row...not perfect by any means but a hell of a lot better than what went before. Cruises Street was poorly done, but from a different era altogether and it shows. Units are too small and the finish is awful.
Something has to be done with O'Connell Street, its an absolute disgrace the state it is in and taking the traffic out of a chunk of it will only help imo. Limericks traffic in the city center is really not that bad (see Galway for really bad city center traffic..now there's a joke of a traffic system)
There are plenty of multi stories around for parking. During business hours I cant remember the last time I parked on street...so wont really make a difference in that regard. I prefer to park in a multistory myself but each to their own.

Bring it on I say!

phog

It sounds like Sarsfield St and William St will still have traffic as will Roches St, Shannon St and the remainder of O'Connell St. So the two blocks are still within minutes of traffic.

What happens the existing outlets, should they be CPOed and replaced with what?

It seems a huge waste of money so a few people can cross the roads where ever they feel like doing so.

zulutango

Really the plan doesn't go far enough. While I wouldn't ban cars altogether, most of the streets in the Georgian part of the city should be closed to through traffic. Catherine Street, Glentworth Street, Cecil Street, Hartstonge Street could be some of the nicest streets in the country, but the through traffic and on street parking is killing them.

Vanquished

This project seems to be gaining some momentum at long last. It really is incredible that we're still waiting for a revamp to finally give the street a presentable appearance!

I think it's time to bite the bullet at this stage. O'Connell Street in its current guise is a joke, an embarrassment, just a complete and utter mess! It needs a comprehensive reorganisation and rejuvenation. As it stands we are far too deferential to the car in Limerick and it's about time we put the pedestrian first and made our streets more people friendly. The city centre still lacks a focal point but by providing a large, dedicated pedestrian space in the heart of the city we can address this flaw. It'll give people a place to meet up or to just sit and relax etc in a safe, car free environment. I think this proposal can definitely change the city centre for the better!

Townie_P

I think a lot of people are missing the point here and getting too hung up on traffic. Limerick City centre as it currently stands is a depressing s**thole. It's a kip. There is nothing nice or impressive about it. It is not a nice place to shop, or spend any extended time in. It's as simple as that. The whole point of the pedestrianisation is to address that. The point is to transform the city's main street in to that of a modern European city, which is what Limerick aspires to be. Only two blocks of this project, the heart of the city, is to be pedestrianised. Two relatively small blocks.

There are a lot of complaints about traffic being banned from two blocks of O'Connell Street (the traffic adds nothing to these streets in the first place), yet no one has complained about the farce that is Henry Street and the one-way system. Henry Street is a wide, massive street (with how many lanes of traffic?) yet all the traffic is going one way. Henry Street and Sarsfield Street (and possibly Lower O'Connell Street & Patrick Street) should be two-way streets, and if they were you woudn't need the two blocks of O'Connell Street.

O'Connell Street should absolutely be pedestrianised imo, and some simple tweaking to the ridiculous one-way system that currently exists, plus a crackdown on double parking, should solve most traffic issues. But traffic should not be the major issue here, the bigger picture is the modernisation of the City Centre. Thought Cork made a balls of Patrick Street too to be honest, the traffic through it is pointless.

zulutango

Townie_P wrote:

But traffic should not be the major issue here, the bigger picture is the modernisation of the City Centre. Thought Cork made a balls of Patrick Street too to be honest, the traffic through it is pointless.

They failed to grasp the nettle in Cork that time, and now they're looking at full pedestrianisation.

phog

Townie_P wrote: »

I think a lot of people are missing the point here and getting too hung up on traffic. Limerick City centre as it currently stands is a depressing s**thole. It's a kip. There is nothing nice or impressive about it. It is not a nice place to shop, or spend any extended time in. It's as simple as that. The whole point of the pedestrianisation is to address that. The point is to transform the city's main street in to that of a modern European city, which is what Limerick aspires to be. Only two blocks of this project, the heart of the city, is to be pedestrianised. Two relatively small blocks.

There are a lot of complaints about traffic being banned from two blocks of O'Connell Street (the traffic adds nothing to these streets in the first place), yet no one has complained about the farce that is Henry Street and the one-way system. Henry Street is a wide, massive street (with how many lanes of traffic?) yet all the traffic is going one way. Henry Street and Sarsfield Street (and possibly Lower O'Connell Street & Patrick Street) should be two-way streets, and if they were you woudn't need the two blocks of O'Connell Street.

O'Connell Street should absolutely be pedestrianised imo, and some simple tweaking to the ridiculous one-way system that currently exists, plus a crackdown on double parking, should solve most traffic issues. But traffic should not be the major issue here, the bigger picture is the modernisation of the City Centre. Thought Cork made a balls of Patrick Street too to be honest, the traffic through it is pointless.

Traffic has to be a major issue until they put orbital routes in place, most of the traffic from Corbally area and East Clare come into the city via Patrick St, then you have traffic from the Caherdavin & Thomondgate area coming in over Sarsfield St what happens once it hits William St junction? That traffic needs to be filtered around or through the city via other routes. Aside from the tunnel there's no great development to shift this traffic.

Also, I see little value in pedestrianising two blocks of a street in the hope of making it family friendly.

Cookiemunster

phog wrote: »

Traffic has to be a major issue until they put orbital routes in place, most of the traffic from Corbally area and East Clare come into the city via Patrick St, then you have traffic from the Caherdavin & Thomondgate area coming in over Sarsfield St what happens once it hits William St junction? That traffic needs to be filtered around or through the city via other routes. Aside from the tunnel there's no great development to shift this traffic.

Also, I see little value in pedestrianising two blocks of a street in the hope of making it family friendly.

It's been in place for the last 5 years. That's why they built the new link road from Cathedral Place to CBS and reversed the traffic flow on Sexton St. Traffic moves clockwise around William St., Parnell St, Mallow St. and Henry St. (inner route) or Dublin Rd, Catherdral Place, Sexton St., Parnell St, Mallow St. and Henry St. (outer orbital)

phog

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It's been in place for the last 5 years. That's why they built the new link road from Cathedral Place to CBS and reversed the traffic flow on Sexton St. Traffic moves clockwise around William St., Parnell St, Mallow St. and Henry St. (inner route) or Dublin Rd, Catherdral Place, Sexton St., Parnell St, Mallow St. and Henry St. (outer orbital)

If that's the solution then why have we "gridlock" at William St junction?

Image from Live95FM for traffic report this morning

panda100

Townie_P wrote: »

Henry Street is a wide, massive street (with how many lanes of traffic?) yet all the traffic is going one way. Henry Street and Sarsfield Street (and possibly Lower O'Connell Street & Patrick Street) should be two-way streets, and if they were you woudn't need the two blocks of O'Connell Street.

Great Post. As a cyclist it is incredibly frustrating that Henry Street is a one way street. There are three Coca-Cola Bike stations located along Henry Street, which beggars belief, as the one way system completely impedes cycling through the city. They certainly have more than enough space on that street for two-Way cycling. Currently, you just see lots of commuters and Mary I students cycling on the pavement against the traffic.

dave 27

The reason why there's gridlock is because ever junction in the grid centre has traffic lights on it

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It's been in place for the last 5 years. That's why they built the new link road from Cathedral Place to CBS and reversed the traffic flow on Sexton St. Traffic moves clockwise around William St., Parnell St, Mallow St. and Henry St. (inner route) or Dublin Rd, Catherdral Place, Sexton St., Parnell St, Mallow St. and Henry St. (outer orbital)

The orbital route really needs a fair bit of rethinking. The Limerick 2030 plan pretty much poured cold water on it.

Mc Love

I would like to see something like they have in the states with a flashing filter light for cars turning left (right in the US?) - think that would help traffic no end!

zulutango

dave 27 wrote: »

The reason why there's gridlock is because ever junction in the grid centre has traffic lights on it

Sure, get rid of the traffic lights altogether so. That'll do wonders for the city :rolleyes:

Cookiemunster

phog wrote: »

If that's the solution then why have we "gridlock" at William St junction?

Image from Live95FM for traffic report this morning

It's gridlock because it's rush hour and people are commuting across the city through the city center rather than around it.

Plus I doubt it's actually gridlock. There are 3 set of traffic lights within 100m. Traffic will always be slow moving here.

bazz26

Mc Love wrote: »

I would like to see something like they have in the states with a flashing filter light for cars turning left (right in the US?) - think that would help traffic no end!

Given that many road users cannot grasp the basic rules of the road in their present state that would just wouldn't work here. Ambulance chaser solicitors would welcome who had the right of way argument all day though.

Jmccoy1

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It's gridlock because it's rush hour and people are commuting across the city through the city center rather than around it.

Plus I doubt it's actually gridlock. There are 3 set of traffic lights within 100m. Traffic will always be slow moving here.

William Street is mainly a free for all. The main factors that lead to congestion via this street are:

1. The taxi drivers regularly clog the right hand lane as you come through from Sarsfield Street, they think it's their right to wait there until a space is available on the rank, to hell with everyone else, the road belongs to them is the attitude.

2. People regularly abandon their cars at various points on both sides of the street, but hey it's OK they've got the hazard lights on, also known as park anywhere lights in their small brains.

3. Did I mention Dealz. I'm waiting for Jacinta, so it's OK.

4. Various delivery drivers delivering to businesses on the street double park at various points on the street.

5. The pedestrian crossing at Chapel Street should be a zebra crossing. Saying that, who bothers with the crossing on the street anyway, let's just walk out in front of the cars, better still, if I've a buggy, let's just push that out first as a test.

All being said, the main overriding factor on this street is ignorance and lack of enforcement.

zulutango

William Street shouldn't have two lanes really. The right hand lane is pretty much obsolete because of the parking, and even when it's clear it doesn't facilitate traffic flows. It's a very poor design.

It would have been better to get rid of one lane and use the extra space to widen the footpaths and put in a contra-flow cycle lane there.

People will still walk out in front of traffic so the traffic lane should be made narrow to force it to slow down significantly.

phog

Mc Love wrote: »

I would like to see something like they have in the states with a flashing filter light for cars turning left (right in the US?) - think that would help traffic no end!

One example where this would be a huge benefit is turning left from Hyde Road onto Upr Carey's Road.

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It's gridlock because it's rush hour and people are commuting across the city through the city center rather than around it.

Plus I doubt it's actually gridlock. There are 3 set of traffic lights within 100m. Traffic will always be slow moving here.

Hence why I mentioned the requirement for orbital routes to be part of the plan.

zulutango wrote: »

William Street shouldn't have two lanes really. The right hand lane is pretty much obsolete because of the parking, and even when it's clear it doesn't facilitate traffic flows. It's a very poor design.

It would have been better to get rid of one lane and use the extra space to widen the footpaths and put in a contra-flow cycle lane there.

People will still walk out in front of traffic so the traffic lane should be made narrow to force it to slow down significantly.

Enforce the law and give the 2nd lane back to commuters then it will be used. At the moment, drivers avoid because cars just stop on it.