Pedestrianising O'Connell Street

Cookiemunster

phog wrote: »

Hence why I mentioned the requirement for orbital routes to be part of the plan.

Such as the Limerick tunnel?

phog

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Such as the Limerick tunnel?

Unfortunately, the lack of suitable access/exits doesn't really help traffic in city

Townie_P

phog wrote: »

Traffic has to be a major issue until they put orbital routes in place, most of the traffic from Corbally area and East Clare come into the city via Patrick St, then you have traffic from the Caherdavin & Thomondgate area coming in over Sarsfield St what happens once it hits William St junction?

What happens is traffic that is currently driving through O'Connell Street to head say out towards the Crescent, will be driving outward through a two-way Henry Street instead. Traffic that needs to go up through William Street would still be going through William Street. William Street has it's own problems but that's a separate issue. The point is Henry Street is a complete waste as it stands as it has about 47 lanes going in one direction. All inward lanes, no outward lanes. This despite Henry Street offering easy access to the Dock Road and out over the bridge which links up to the motorway.

phog wrote: »

Also, I see little value in pedestrianising two blocks of a street in the hope of making it family friendly.

Have you been to any or many cities with pedestrianised centres? If you can't see the benefits of it, well I'm not sure what to say. Family friendly is only one aspect of it, "No longer a f**king kip" is the main one for me. You know all those big shiny retailers that everyone wants in Limerick City? It's not rocket science why they're not here, when Cruises Street and Bedford Row are your selling points. The city needs this.

phog

Townie_P wrote: »

What happens is traffic that is currently driving through O'Connell Street to head say out towards the Crescent, will be driving outward through a two-way Henry Street instead. Traffic that needs to go up through William Street would still be going through William Street. William Street has it's own problems but that's a separate issue. The point is Henry Street is a complete waste as it stands as it has about 47 lanes going in one direction. All inward lanes, no outward lanes. This despite Henry Street offering easy access to the Dock Road and out over the bridge which links up to the motorway.


Have you been to any or many cities with pedestrianised centres? If you can't see the benefits of it, well I'm not sure what to say. Family friendly is only one aspect of it, "No longer a f**king kip" is the main one for me. You know all those big shiny retailers that everyone wants in Limerick City? It's not rocket science why they're not here, when Cruises Street and Bedford Row are your selling points. The city needs this.

But we're not getting a pedestrianised centre, we're getting two blocks and by my count there are about three vacant premises in those two blocks. Where are these big shiny stores going to fit in?

Townie_P

phog wrote: »

But we're not getting a pedestrianised centre, we're getting two blocks and by my count there are about three vacant premises in those two blocks. Where are these big shiny stores going to fit in?

Ah here! It's about the over all image of the city. The bigger picture. Just because two blocks are pedestrianised doesn't mean that's the only place retailers will want to be. I didn't see any big retailers falling over themselves for the Dorothy Perkins unit, which is a large modern unit. The Tony Connolly sale shop there is only a temporary lease too, but I don't see any new takers. I wonder why?

This pedestrianisation and upgrade of O'Connell Street is just one aspect of a wider development plan for the city, yet people are getting hung up on the loss of traffic through two blocks and the fact there are currently hardly any empty units anyway. FFS like, talking about not being able to see the wood for the trees

phog

Townie_P wrote: »

Ah here! It's about the over all image of the city. The bigger picture. Just because two blocks are pedestrianised doesn't mean that's the only place retailers will want to be. I didn't see any big retailers falling over themselves for the Dorothy Perkins unit, which is a large modern unit. The Tony Connolly sale shop there is only a temporary lease too, but I don't see any new takers. I wonder why?

This pedestrianisation and upgrade of O'Connell Street is just one aspect of a wider development plan for the city, yet people are getting hung up on the loss of traffic through two blocks and the fact there are currently hardly any empty units anyway. FFS like, talking about not being able to see the wood for the trees

So what's your point? Retailers won't move into the current pedestrian streets because we don't have more pedestrian streets?

Once the wider development plan includes sorting out the traffic then it might make sense but there's little to get excited about in the current proposal.

Paddico

some news here
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/246421/limerick-city-car-ban-plan-moves-a-step-closer-as-part-of-9m-plan.html

zulutango

Paddico wrote: »

some news here
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/246421/limerick-city-car-ban-plan-moves-a-step-closer-as-part-of-9m-plan.html

Sensationalist headline alert ..

Only one of the shortlisted schemes proposed removing cars from the street, and that was only for a small section of it.

LimerickCity

Mr.H wrote: »

phog wrote: »

I can't see a benefit to closing O'Connell St to traffic. Who/what gains?

Perhaps, if we turned the world on it's head and got people to move house and live in the city then there might be some need. Even then I can't see the need for it.

The shopper and the business

• The shopper gets the freedom of being able to walk freely on a street without traffic
• New businesses will be encouraged to bring their services out to the street ie: Cafe's, Restaurants, Bars etc.
• Business in the area get a higher footfall from pedestrianised streets. People actually go to pedestrianised areas more because they are pedestrianised. Its a "comfort factor"

I am telling you straight out that anyone who has actually studied these types of urban environments will not be against this change as they would know the benefits.

What about people going form one side of the city to the other? Their journeys will become longer................... Who cares. Its about making the city a better place to live and work. Its nothing to do with your journey now taking an extra 5 or 10 mins to go around the city instead of through it.

In fact the only negative is the fact that people think shoppers will avoid a city that has no cars........................... If you really believe that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Cities that cater for pedestrians over traffic tend to do better. Most of the traffic going through the city are not even using the city so why not redirect them around the city instead of through it. Makes perfect sense.

What is the busiest street in Ireland??????????????????????? anyone???

Great post.
Anyone that has been to Liverpool in the last few years will be hugely impressed with the amount of pedestrianised streets.

zulutango

John Moran arguing for a radical approach to improving O'Connell Street

https://twitter.com/limerickcitybiz/status/875258028404199424

zulutango

Here's the online version.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/255406/liveablelimerick-o-connell-street-can-be-a-new-living-spine-for-an-ambitious-city.html

thesimpsons

LimerickCity wrote: »

Great post.
Anyone that has been to Liverpool in the last few years will be hugely impressed with the amount of pedestrianised streets.

population of Liverpool vs population of Limerick ?

most times I'm in town the pedestrian streets appear to be fairly dead whereas O'Connell St /William street/Catherine street is where the most people are. Do we really have the population to support more pedestrianisation without turning the city centre deader

johnnyryan89

zulutango wrote: »

Here's the online version.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/255406/liveablelimerick-o-connell-street-can-be-a-new-living-spine-for-an-ambitious-city.html

Some really good ideas in there that I'm loving. I'll always have my car and will use it but they really need to make the city centre more liveable and improve the flow of traffic around it but while these ideas look great what are they doing about housing for all these extra people they are hoping will live in the city centre. Have they any plans to renovate some of the old buildings in town like on Roaches St or Cecil St for residential purposes or building more apartments.

zulutango

thesimpsons wrote: »

most times I'm in town the pedestrian streets appear to be fairly dead whereas O'Connell St /William street/Catherine street is where the most people are. Do we really have the population to support more pedestrianisation without turning the city centre deader

If you make the city centre attractive, then people will want to move to Limerick and live in it. The context of the plan is a doubling (at least) of the city population. This is the Council's stated target. Moran is arguing for heavy investment in Limerick such that it becomes the second largest city in the State.

zulutango

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

Some really good ideas in there that I'm loving. I'll always have my car and will use it but they really need to make the city centre more liveable and improve the flow of traffic around it but while these ideas look great what are they doing about housing for all these extra people they are hoping will live in the city centre. Have they any plans to renovate some of the old buildings in town like on Roaches St or Cecil St for residential purposes or building more apartments.

There is a very low population in the city centre (Georgian part). It's about a quarter of what it was 200 years ago. Many of the Georgian buildings are vacant or used for storage. Within near reach there are many sites that could be developed for residential purposes. There's many other sites that have low density housing on them that could be replaced, over time, with high density.

Strettie11

Zulutango

Do you have the census number for georgian quarter comparing 2016 to 1841 census or earlier . Looking for those numbers to see the population difference

Mc Love

It would be cool to have more trees in the the city centre.

johnnyryan89

zulutango wrote: »

There is a very low population in the city centre (Georgian part). It's about a quarter of what it was 200 years ago. Many of the Georgian buildings are vacant or used for storage. Within near reach there are many sites that could be developed for residential purposes. There's many other sites that have low density housing on them that could be replaced, over time, with high density.

I know this but are the council or anyone doing anything at the moment to make these Georgian buildings liveable and turn them into residential housing?

zulutango

johnnyryan89 wrote:

I know this but are the council or anyone doing anything at the moment to make these Georgian buildings liveable and turn them into residential housing?

It's not the Council's role to renovate privately owned Georgian buildings. It has no right to do so either. But what it can do is improve the streets and make them attractive such that private individuals or companies will want to purchase and/or renovate the buildings.

zulutango

Strettie11 wrote:

Do you have the census number for georgian quarter comparing 2016 to 1841 census or earlier . Looking for those numbers to see the population difference

I don't. I got this figure from a lecture I attended back in April. If I recall correctly the speaker was the historian Matthew Potter and he had researched this.

johnnyryan89

zulutango wrote: »

It's not the Council's role to renovate privately owned Georgian buildings. It has no right to do so either. But what it can do is improve the streets and make them attractive such that private individuals or companies will want to purchase and/or renovate the buildings.

Shouldn't the council be buying property like this though and getting it done sooner though. It's all well and good doing the works with the attitude of if we build it they will come. What if people still don't wanna buy this property to do it themselves. What if after the works are done the people who own these buildings up the price and price individuals who might wanna buy a place in the centre but can't afford to buy them and do them up.

What I mean is shouldn't the council look at buying property with the idea of having houses at an affordable price for people looking to move to the city and social housing.

pigtown

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

Shouldn't the council be buying property like this though and getting it done sooner though. It's all well and good doing the works with the attitude of if we build it they will come. What if people still don't wanna buy this property to do it themselves. What if after the works are done the people who own these buildings up the price and price individuals who might wanna buy a place in the centre but can't afford to buy them and do them up.

What I mean is shouldn't the council look at buying property with the idea of having houses at an affordable price for people looking to move to the city and social housing.

They have budgeted €18 million (if I recall correctly) for a 'demonstration block' within the Georgian area as a pilot project on what could be achieved with such buildings. I've no idea on the status of this project though

Cookiemunster

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

Shouldn't the council be buying property like this though and getting it done sooner though. It's all well and good doing the works with the attitude of if we build it they will come. What if people still don't wanna buy this property to do it themselves. What if after the works are done the people who own these buildings up the price and price individuals who might wanna buy a place in the centre but can't afford to buy them and do them up.

What I mean is shouldn't the council look at buying property with the idea of having houses at an affordable price for people looking to move to the city and social housing.

The council doesn't have the funds to purchase and refurbish all these properties and it isn't a housing developer. The Hyde Rd flats for example were council property, but were sold to Cluid for a nominal fee of €1 so that they could be redeveloped.

mackes

zulutango wrote: »

I don't. I got this figure from a lecture I attended back in April. If I recall correctly the speaker was the historian Matthew Potter and he had researched this.

http://www.limerickcity.ie/media/Media,4082,en.pdf
This might be useful.....

Straight Talker

zulutango wrote: »

If you make the city centre attractive, then people will want to move to Limerick and live in it. The context of the plan is a doubling (at least) of the city population. This is the Council's stated target. Moran is arguing for heavy investment in Limerick such that it becomes the second largest city in the State.

Yeah there is the visual aspect and the plans for O'Connell Street are very impressive in that regard.But to be honest what's the good in making streets nice and fancy when it will be ruined by the dregs of society feral anti social youths and drug users etc.Of course Limerick is not the only city to suffer from these problems but from my experience undesirable elements seem to stick out more in Limerick in comparison to other places.Limerick city centre is far from an attractive place to do business in and sadly the run down neglected appearance of certain city centre streets, vacant shops etc is not the only reason Limerick city centre is seen as not an attractive place to do business in imo.

Silentcorner

Straight Talker wrote: »

Yeah there is the visual aspect and the plans for O'Connell Street are very impressive in that regard.But to be honest what's the good in making streets nice and fancy when it will be ruined by the dregs of society feral anti social youths and drug users etc.Of course Limerick is not the only city to suffer from these problems but from my experience undesirable elements seem to stick out more in Limerick in comparison to other places.Limerick city centre is far from an attractive place to do business in and sadly the run down neglected appearance of certain city centre streets, vacant shops etc is not the only reason Limerick city centre is seen as not an attractive place to do business in imo.

He is right lads...we are a city full of scumbags and dereliction so why bother...

The vacany levels in Limerick city centre (Prime Retail Area that is)are not higher than anywhere else...it's also not too easy to get office space on O'Connell St believe it or not...Limerick City centre was always home to a huge amount of professional sevices (small-med sized accountant/law/finance firms) on account of the huge wealth and industry that surrounds the city, from the Shannon Free Zone, the rich agricultural land, the large engineering base, Raheen/Castletroy, University etc...

Commercial activity and retail footfall are two very different parts of city centre life...we lack massive numbers of tourists (which isn't the end of the world by the way) and we lost a lot of shoppers to the suburbs...our "scumbag issue" is like our parking issue...blown out of all proportion!

It has a fairly obvious footfall problem...which has been discussed on this forum over and over again...

You just don't see Limerick as an attractive place to do business...plenty of Irish people feel the same as you...it took me a long time to understand why this city in particular suffers from this perception issue...it is much more complex than a simple policing or dereliction issue...

Straight Talker

Silentcorner wrote: »

He is right lads...we are a city full of scumbags and dereliction so why bother...

The vacany levels in Limerick city centre (Prime Retail Area that is)are not higher than anywhere else...it's also not too easy to get office space on O'Connell St believe it or not...Limerick City centre was always home to a huge amount of professional sevices (small-med sized accountant/law/finance firms) on account of the huge wealth and industry that surrounds the city, from the Shannon Free Zone, the rich agricultural land, the large engineering base, Raheen/Castletroy, University etc...

Commercial activity and retail footfall are two very different parts of city centre life...we lack massive numbers of tourists (which isn't the end of the world by the way) and we lost a lot of shoppers to the suburbs...our "scumbag issue" is like our parking issue...blown out of all proportion!

It has a fairly obvious footfall problem...which has been discussed on this forum over and over again...

You just don't see Limerick as an attractive place to do business...plenty of Irish people feel the same as you...it took me a long time to understand why this city in particular suffers from this perception issue...it is much more complex than a simple policing or dereliction issue...

Im not speaking about this with an anti Limerick slant.In terms of architecture history sight seeing etc Limerick is a great city.When i say not an attractive place to do business in i meant from a retail perspective for reasons i already outlined.I don't judge places based on what other people say.I judge a place based on my own experiences and from those experiences i do feel that anti social youths are a slightly bigger issue in Limerick compared to equivalent city centre's i've been to in Ireland and the UK.

We all want a vibrant attractive city to work live in and visit and i stand over what i said about anti social behaviour issue's in the city centre.Between that and the beggers and i think it is a factor on why people favour places like the Crescent for shopping.There are a lot of things i really like about Limerick.It's nowhere near as bad as the image portrayed by the media.But i do think that it's not as flawless as some people would suggest either.The truth is somewhere in between these two extremes.Doing up the streets and giving them a nicer look is something that badly has to be done.I think that along with that a greater garda presence in the city centre would also help things.

Limerick is not this dangerous place where you need to walk around with a bullet proof vest.But i do think they are certain elements that are making the city centre a place that is uncomfortable to be in at times.As you say Limerick has a footfall problem and there is a reason why this is so.You say some of the issues behind this are overstated.Yet retail traders in the city centre where demanding a greater garda presence as recent as last year.When things came to head with a street fight on William Street.Retail traders in Cork city centre have also been complaining about these issues.

So it's not a case with me of Cork being paradise and only other places have problems!Im just giving my opinion with regards to how i feel Limerick can be improved.Pedestrianizing the streets costs money.A greater garda presence would require nowhere near as big an amount of financial resources.Limerick has the potential to be an even greater city.It's problems are very fixable.

Silentcorner

Straight Talker wrote: »

Im not speaking about this with an anti Limerick slant.In terms of architecture history sight seeing etc Limerick is a great city.When i say not an attractive place to do business in i meant from a retail perspective for reasons i already outlined.I don't judge places based on what other people say.I judge a place based on my own experiences and from those experiences i do feel that anti social youths are a slightly bigger issue in Limerick compared to equivalent city centre's i've been to in Ireland and the UK.

We all want a vibrant attractive city to work live in and visit and i stand over what i said about anti social behaviour issue's in the city centre.Between that and the beggers and i think it is a factor on why people favour places like the Crescent for shopping.There are a lot of things i really like about Limerick.It's nowhere near as bad as the image portrayed by the media.But i do think that it's not as flawless as some people would suggest either.The truth is somewhere in between these two extremes.Doing up the streets and giving them a nicer look is something that badly has to be done.I think that along with that a greater garda presence in the city centre would also help things.

Limerick is not this dangerous place where you need to walk around with a bullet proof vest.But i do think they are certain elements that are making the city centre a place that is uncomfortable to be in at times.As you say Limerick has a footfall problem and there is a reason why this is so.You say some of the issues behind this are overstated.Yet retail traders in the city centre where demanding a greater garda presence as recent as last year.When things came to head with a street fight on William Street.Retail traders in Cork city centre have also been complaining about these issues.

So it's not a case with me of Cork being paradise and only other places have problems!Im just giving my opinion with regards to how i feel Limerick can be improved.Pedestrianizing the streets costs money.A greater garda presence would require nowhere near as big an amount of financial resources.Limerick has the potential to be an even greater city.It's problems are very fixable.

What Limerick city centre suffers from is the classic dough nut effect, it has effected Limerick more than any other city centre in this country...which has had an impact on the appearance of the city centre...I don't think you'll find anyone in this city who isn't aware of the issues facing the city centre...a greater garda presence would only be for optics...there isn't a city centre crime issue...its not like we are all getting mugged all the time or having our phones robbed...

It is not because it is an unattractive place to do business or because or "the dregs of society anti social youths and drug users"...which is what you suggested...you posted in this thread to question the point of making any improvements to O'Connell St...that is your opinion.

An improvement in the streetscape is of huge importance, look at the impact the same improvement had in Cork!

zulutango

Silentcorner wrote:

An improvement in the streetscape is of huge importance, look at the impact the same improvement had in Cork!

And in Cork they are now realising they didn't go far enough with the improvements they made 10 years ago and are now planning to remove all cars from the centre. It's what we should be doing too. Let's skip the intermediate step.

kilburn

On the housing in the Georgian quarter these would make fantastic homes and people should research the available grants.

Unfortunately the buildings are all listed and would cost a small fortune to modernise