Religion in junior infants

lazygal

Wright wrote: »

Yes they really are. All of Jesus' escapades are treated as 100% fact, this thread your first experience with Catholisism?

Well the poster sees no difference between reciting prayers and reciting poetry so that says a lot really.

ash23

There seems to be a fairly inconsistent approach to religion and contentious issues depending on the views of each teacher. Perhaps better guidelines as to how religion should be taught would be a good idea

ThisRegard

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Are you sure about that?! :rolleyes:

Presumably if you were educated in Ireland you most likely went to a Catholic school. You have no problems forming your own beliefs despite having been 'indoctrinated' and 'brainwashed'?

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

Well the poster sees no difference between reciting prayers and reciting poetry so that says a lot really.

:rolleyes: A real bee in your bonnet about that one don't cha!

mahoganygas

purplecow1977 are you aware of any teachers in your school who are not catholic or not theist?

Do you know if they still stick to the script when it comes to religion class?

I've heard of teachers coming out of St. Pats who make sure to get to mass every week. They hope to get cosy with the parish priest before applying to the local school.

Have you heard or experienced anything similar?

Thanks for the insight so far. Very informative to hear from a teacher in a catholic school.

frostyjacks

ash23 wrote: »

What about creationism? Because my child was taught that as fact about 5 years ago.

Don't be daft. No school in this country teaches Bible stories as fact.

purplecow1977

mahoganygas wrote: »

purplecow1977 are you aware of any teachers in your school who are not catholic or not theist?

Do you know if they still stick to the script when it comes to religion class?

I've heard of students coming out of St. Pats who make sure to get to mass every week. They hope to get cosy with the parish priest before applying to the local school.

Have you heard or experienced anything similar?

Thanks for the insight so far. Very informative to hear from a teacher in a catholic school.

To answer your first question, none spring to mind.

I know a few who are non-practising Catholics, including myself really.

I've no doubt a few are cosying up to the Parish Priest. Unfortunately that happens as many priests are chairpersons of their Board of Management.

Again luckily, we do not have our priest on our BOM.

I am glad you have found my repsonses insightful. I feel the OP has certainly got his/her answers now!

To answer your other question, we have a 'curriculum' laid out for religion. It is the Alive O programme and is being replaced this year in Junior and Senior infants by Grow in love, which is available for viewing on the veritas website. I found the Alive - O programme quite unaccessible so based my lessons around bible stories and morals. I also taught some standard things for Confirmation this year like the fruits of the holy spirit etc. I don't imagine many teachers strictly stick to the Alive O programme as we have discussed before our dislike for it, so we usually research our own powerpoints and stories etc to use in class. I find the children like many of the stories (whether they are real or not!)

One eyed Jack

ash23 wrote: »

There seems to be a fairly inconsistent approach to religion and contentious issues depending on the views of each teacher. Perhaps better guidelines as to how religion should be taught would be a good idea

The guidelines are there already, and the guidelines are good. But the issue is that as you point out, because it's down to the individual teacher how they teach the class, you're going to have both good, and bad experiences. The same could be said though for any teacher of any subject.

For the OP, I would suggest that they look at the Whole School Evaluation reports from the Department of Education and Skills and see can they find the particular school they have in mind for their child, and see what the report is like -


Whole School Evaluation (WSE)

Whole School Evaluations (WSEs) are carried out in primary and post-primary schools. During these inspections, we evaluate the quality of the school management and leadership, the quality of teaching, learning and assessment, and the school's own planning and self-review. The way in which we inspect the school during WSE varies somewhat. For example, we use slightly different processes in primary and post-primary schools; sometimes the inspection has a subject or curriculum focus and at other times, we concentrate on a range of different lessons across a wide range of subjects. We provide oral feedback to the school community at the end of these inspections and we provide a printed report which is published on our website. - See more at: http://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Inspection-Reports-Publications/Whole-School-Evaluation-Reports-List/#sthash.GSr8tc6w.dpuf

eviltwin

ash23 wrote: »

There seems to be a fairly inconsistent approach to religion and contentious issues depending on the views of each teacher. Perhaps better guidelines as to how religion should be taught would be a good idea

Your really at the mercy of the teachers and principal. I experienced this myself with my daughter's school. One principal was adamant all students attended school masses. When he retired the new principle was happy to let her opt out


Purplecow seems quite reasonable but who is the say the others are. It's very inconsistent.

ash23

frostyjacks wrote: »

Don't be daft. No school in this country teaches Bible stories as fact.

They dont state it's fact but they dont say it's fiction either. Children are fairly trusting and if a teacher reads a passage from a book they will take it as truth. Same as maths, history etc. My daughter came home believing in creationism.

I and other parents have said that their children are being led to believe that the bible stories are true. The virgin mary, the resurrection...this is all taught as fact and I know that to be true.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

:rolleyes: A real bee in your bonnet about that one don't cha!

I do actually. It's something I've heard from other teachers too and it makes me wonder how they assess their teaching materials and methods. I've had teachers tell me the Alive O programme doesn't have any religion in it, it's about learning to be friends. This despite the fact the books have a prayer on every page. It says a lot to me about how religion is viewed by teachers that they don't see a programme of indoctrination as religious and that learning to recite a poem is the same as reciting a prayer to a deity. Why do you think it's the same thing?

ThisRegard

lazygal wrote: »

Well the poster sees no difference between reciting prayers and reciting poetry so that says a lot really.

You're a bit hysteric, for want of a better word, on this. It's a well established learning method, students doing masters use it.

lazygal

ThisRegard wrote: »

You're a bit hysteric, for want of a better word, on this. It's a well established learning method, students doing masters use it.

I.understand the method perfectly. It's used because it works. It's why I still recall the prayers years on. However my issue is the poster sees no difference between learning a poem and indoctrination.

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

I do actually. It's something I've heard from other teachers too and it makes me wonder how they assess their teaching materials and methods. I've had teachers tell me the Alive O programme doesn't have any religion in it, it's about learning to be friends. This despite the fact the books have a prayer on every page. It says a lot to me about how religion is viewed by teachers that they don't see a programme of indoctrination as religious and that learning to recite a poem is the same as reciting a prayer to a deity. Why do you think it's the same thing?

In the junior end it is mostly about making friends etc yes.
Although I had a quick look at the new Grow in Love and it seems to be more 'God' based.
A prayer on every page? We only ever used the workbooks and I know there's a prayer on the bottom of those pages. We used that as a particular evening for homework as a home/school link. The prayer could be said if parents liked at home. I never drew reference to it at school. (mostly a colouring book anyway at that age!)

Are you anti- any religion or just anti Catholicism? Because Muslims pray 5 times per day don't they?! I never forced anyone to join in with the prayer and plenty of Jews, Muslims etc sat quietly and respectfully when prayers were said.

One eyed Jack

lazygal wrote: »

I.understand the method perfectly. It's used because it works. It's why I still recall the prayers years on. However my issue is the poster sees no difference between learning a poem and indoctrination.

Learning a poem and learning a prayer, what is the essential difference?

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

In the junior end it is mostly about making friends etc yes.
Although I had a quick look at the new Grow in Love and it seems to be more 'God' based.
A prayer on every page? We only ever used the workbooks and I know there's a prayer on the bottom of those pages. We used that as a particular evening for homework as a home/school link. The prayer could be said if parents liked at home. I never drew reference to it at school. (mostly a colouring book anyway at that age!)

Are you anti- any religion or just anti Catholicism? Because Muslims pray 5 times per day don't they?! I never forced anyone to join in with the prayer and plenty of Jews, Muslims etc sat quietly and respectfully when prayers were said.

I'm not anti religion. I'm anti indoctrination taking place in state funded schools. And the thread shows that most parents and teachers take a pretty a la carte view to Catholicism anyway. So why it's needed in schools at all is something we should question.
So what if children sat quietly when prayers were said? Why should they need to sit quietly and endure something that goes against their faiths? Would it not make more sense to have a system where no children need to sit quietly while prayers are recited in state schools?

lazygal

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Learning a poem and learning a prayer, what is the essential difference?

One is education. One is indoctrination.

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

I'm not anti religion. I'm anti indoctrination taking place in state funded schools. And the thread shows that most parents and teachers take a pretty a la carte view to Catholicism anyway. So why it's needed in schools at all is something we should question.
So what if children sat quietly when prayers were said? Why should they need to sit quietly and endure something that goes against their faiths? Would it not make more sense to have a system where no children need to sit quietly while prayers are recited in state schools?

I think it's important to be respectful and tolerant of those who DO follow the Catholic faith.

eviltwin

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Learning a poem and learning a prayer, what is the essential difference?

Depends on how you present it. In my house a poem and a prayer are essentially the same thing. In a religious home a prayer has special reverence, its not just something you say or read, your offering it up to a higher being in worship. Not really the same as a poem.

eviltwin

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I think it's important to be respectful and tolerant of those who DO follow the Catholic faith.

Its equally important to be respectful of those who are not Catholic. That's all people want, we're not asking for religion to be banned or anything, we just want a more equal playing field.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I think it's important to be respectful and tolerant of those who DO follow the Catholic faith.

Of course. Does that mean we should segregate children based on the faith their parents picked out for them? Does that mean children who aren't Catholic have limited choice in the education system here?

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

Of course. Does that mean we should segregate children based on the faith their parents picked out for them? Does that mean children who aren't Catholic have limited choice in the education system here?

If there's a niche in the market, then go about filling that niche.

purplecow1977

eviltwin wrote: »

Its equally important to be respectful of those who are not Catholic. That's all people want, we're not asking for religion to be banned or anything, we just want a more equal playing field.

We are a Catholic school and we accept enrolments from all faiths and none.
There are many others like us.
Yes if there were more Educate Together schools it would be fantastic.
But until people start being a bit more proactive........... things won't change.

eviltwin

purplecow1977 wrote: »

We are a Catholic school and we accept enrolments from all faiths and none.
There are many others like us.
Yes if there were more Educate Together schools it would be fantastic.
But until people start being a bit more proactive........... things won't change.

Is your policy like the others where its Catholic first and then all local children of other faiths or none are bottom of the list? Do you not think its better for the community if children are able to go to the same school as the kids on their streets? Do you not agree its better for families if they don't have to travel across the town to take their kids to school?

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

If there's a niche in the market, then go about filling that niche.

Wow. So you view non Catholic children as a niche. Sounds really inclusive.

mahoganygas

purplecow1977 wrote: »

We are a Catholic school and we accept enrolments from all faiths and none.
There are many others like us.
Yes if there were more Educate Together schools it would be fantastic.
But until people start being a bit more proactive........... things won't change.

You recently remarked that some people believe ET schools are the be all and end all, but I get the impression you're not that enthused by them. By all means correct me if I'm wrong.

But I'm curious if you have any criticisms of them, in a religious context or otherwise?

mahoganygas

lazygal wrote: »

Wow. So you view non Catholic children as a niche. Sounds really inclusive.

In her defense, non-Catholic children are the minority in this country. I don't think she meant it maliciously.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

We are a Catholic school and we accept enrolments from all faiths and none.
There are many others like us.
Yes if there were more Educate Together schools it would be fantastic.
But until people start being a bit more proactive........... things won't change.

Does your school only accept Catholic children if it is oversubscribed?

lazygal

mahoganygas wrote: »

In her defense, non-Catholic children are the minority in this country. I don't think she meant it maliciously.

I get that non Catholic children are a minority. It just strikes me as a little odd that we divide up the education of the nation's children based on the religion, if any, their parents have decided they should follow. I long for the day when the religious faiths of children are irrelevant to their education.

One eyed Jack

lazygal wrote: »

One is education. One is indoctrination.

So essentially it's down to semantics. Both are education btw as they are subjects on the curriculum. Whatever significance a person affords them after that is really their own business.

eviltwin wrote: »

Depends on how you present it. In my house a poem and a prayer are essentially the same thing. In a religious home a prayer has special reverence, its not just something you say or read, your offering it up to a higher being in worship. Not really the same as a poem.

That's a bit more like the answer I was looking for tbh. Though IMO neither a poem, nor a prayer would be something that is simply a matter of mechanical rote learning. Both carry significant interpretations in their own right. As the Constitutional primary educator of our child, both my wife and I put significant investment into his education, social and personal development and we each bring something different to the table. Our child has a better knowledge and deeper understanding of the major religions and their history than many of his friends do about their own religion.

Given that they're all on their summer holidays at the moment, it's like a mini United Nations here some evenings when I arrive home, children of all colours, nationalites and religions (and none).