Religion in junior infants

frostyjacks

lazygal wrote: »

I get that non Catholic children are a minority. It just strikes me as a little odd that we divide up the education of the nation's children based on the religion, if any, their parents have decided they should follow. I long for the day when the religious faiths of children are irrelevant to their education.

Maybe most other parents don't have the same issues you do, or else they're happy to send their children to a non-religious school if they do have an issue. People taking issue with religious-run schools teaching religion just seems silly.

mordeith

frostyjacks wrote: »

Maybe most other parents don't have the same issues you do, or else they're happy to send their children to a non-religious school if they do have an issue. People taking issue with religious-run schools teaching religion just seems silly.

I think the main issue is that schools are not religious-run. It's merely a hangover from the days the church did provide the school building/teachers. Now it's just because the parish priest has an automatic place on the board of management. The church certainly don't contribute anything to the running of the majority of primary schools.

mahoganygas

frostyjacks wrote: »

Maybe most other parents don't have the same issues you do, or else they're happy to send their children to a non-religious school if they do have an issue. People taking issue with religious-run schools teaching religion just seems silly.

But a lot of parents don't have a choice where to send their child. I fully support the parents you mention who are happy to send Catholic children to Catholic schools.

All parents want the best for their children. But when I have children I want to send them to a state run school with no religious ethos. That's not a possibility in my area. And it's not a possibility for most parents in this country.

Equal access to education. I want the choice. Moving house or driving large distances to another school are not practical. I realistically have no choice.

Gerry T

frostyjacks wrote: »

Maybe most other parents don't have the same issues you do, or else they're happy to send their children to a non-religious school if they do have an issue. People taking issue with religious-run schools teaching religion just seems silly.

The issue is there is no real choice, the majority of schools are run by the church. That's the situation we find ourselves in, if tomorrow there was a vote to see if schools should stay in catholic control or move to either no or a general religious education I believe it would be a resounding shift towards the educate together system.
Just because primary schools are controlled by the church doesn't mean that's the will of the Irish people, your "silly" remark is smug and insulting.

One eyed Jack

Gerry T wrote: »

The issue is there is no real choice, the majority of schools are run by the church. That's the situation we find ourselves in, if tomorrow there was a vote to see if schools should stay in catholic control or move to either no or a general religious education I believe it would be a resounding shift towards the educate together system.
Just because primary schools are controlled by the church doesn't mean that's the will of the Irish people, your "silly" remark is smug and insulting.

Actually that's exactly what it means.

The demand for change simply isn't significant enough yet to warrant any serious consideration because the vast majority of Irish people are satisfied with the way things are at the moment. Of course that doesn't suit a minority of people, but until those people can actually muster significant support from parents for their ideas, there won't be any change.

BTW, I think you'd be wrong on that vote too.

zeffabelli

ash23 wrote: »

What about creationism? Because my child was taught that as fact about 5 years ago.

I have to tell you any educator who is teaching literal interpretations of the bible is not a catholic but a Christian fundamentalist.

Theologically I would bring this error to their attention.

This is the problem I mentioned before about unqualified, insufficient my educated teachers doing religious instruction whether in ET schools or in RC schools.

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

Wow. So you view non Catholic children as a niche. Sounds really inclusive.

If you want to interpret it as such, then I'm going to disagree with you.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

If you want to interpret it as such, then I'm going to disagree with you.

Does your school have an enrolment policy that prioritises Catholics first?

purplecow1977

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Actually that's exactly what it means.

The demand for change simply isn't significant enough yet to warrant any serious consideration because the vast majority of Irish people are satisfied with the way things are at the moment. Of course that doesn't suit a minority of people, but until those people can actually muster significant support from parents for their ideas, there won't be any change.

BTW, I think you'd be wrong on that vote too.

I agree and disagree with this.

Agree that because there hasn't been much reform talked about, other than in localised areas with higher populations and demand for ET schools and therefore suggests parents are generally happy

Disagree because many teachers and parents would prefer if it wasn't there at all, but aren't bothered enough to do anything about it, it appears.

Many parents believe more time should be spent on IT, scrap Drama, more PE, get rid of this and that..... You won't please everyone all of the time.

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

Does your school have an enrolment policy that prioritises Catholics first?

Yes it specifies we prefer children from married parents, one of each sex, who only consummated their love on the night of their wedding. :rolleyes:

Gerry T

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Actually that's exactly what it means.

The demand for change simply isn't significant enough yet to warrant any serious consideration because the vast majority of Irish people are satisfied with the way things are at the moment. Of course that doesn't suit a minority of people, but until those people can actually muster significant support from parents for their ideas, there won't be any change.

BTW, I think you'd be wrong on that vote too.

How do you backup your claim that that only a minority of people want a secular or educate together ethos. Less than 47% of Irish people consider themselves as religious.
http://www.thejournal.ie/how-religious-are-irish-people-550060-Aug2012/

meeeeh

Gerry T wrote: »

The issue is there is no real choice, the majority of schools are run by the church. That's the situation we find ourselves in, if tomorrow there was a vote to see if schools should stay in catholic control or move to either no or a general religious education I believe it would be a resounding shift towards the educate together system.
Just because primary schools are controlled by the church doesn't mean that's the will of the Irish people, your "silly" remark is smug and insulting.

While I agree with you about the silly remark, I think department of education did some sort of a survey couple of years ago and there was demand for more non denominational schools but not overwhelming. I can't find the results now.

Anyway I knew my son had some sort of prayers in the school but I didn't realize there were religious classes until he came home with the book at the end of the year. I am not comfortable with the concept of religion in schools (and I don't like educate together concept either) but it does depend a lot on the teacher. My son spoke about Irish, maths, pe and so on and barley mentioned religion, neither did his teacher in daily twitter feeds.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Yes it specifies we prefer children from married parents, one of each sex, who only consummated their love on the night of their wedding. :rolleyes:

Ok, I know this might be a joke for you, but I know people who can't get their children into a school (I might be one of them if we move house) because all local schools prioritise Catholic children from and outside the area for enrolment over non Catholic children. I'm wondering if your school is one of them. It'd seem odd if you didn't know how your school enrolment policy worked.

purplecow1977

Ultimately, it appears that Catholic ethos schools are entitled to indoctrinate as they so wish, within the remits of the Catholic religion. If parents are not happy about this, then they need to be proactive and either lobby the TDs/government on the removal of religious education from schools, or go about setting up their own educate together schools.

If I move to a non-Catholic country, I don't have much of an option in terms of schooling so would be expected to row in with whatever is there, or maybe I would be excluded, I don't know. Would I be allowed to sit in class whilst religion lesson was being taught?

If people are unhappy with the services that are being provided, they need to be proactive. Moaning solves nothing!


To answer someone who had a query, I don't have anything against Educate Together schools but it seems anyone who is anti-religion is pro-Educate Together and are constantly singing their praises. Are they really that impressive?! Maybe! My friend worked in one a couple of times and thought discipline was an issue but perhaps true can be said for other schools also.

Wright

frostyjacks wrote: »

Don't be daft. No school in this country teaches Bible stories as fact.

Yes; they do.

byhookorbycrook

lazygal wrote: »

Does your school have an enrollment policy that prioritises Catholics first?

Ours is a Catholic school, no mention of religion in our policy,we have children of many religions and none. We have always had a lay person as chairperson of our BOM.

I am always a little amused when threads seem to include only Catholic schools prioritizing children who are Catholics. Many "faith schools" will give preference to their own religion.

Likewise, i have heard people criticizing other people for sending their (religiously raised ) child to a multi-denom.

purplecow1977

Gerry T wrote: »

How do you backup your claim that that only a minority of people want a secular or educate together ethos. Less than 47% of Irish people consider themselves as religious.
http://www.thejournal.ie/how-religious-are-irish-people-550060-Aug2012/

That article is 3 years old so do you have anything more up to date?

(Also it was carried out on merely 1000 respondents, hardly reflective of an entire population)

purplecow1977

Wright wrote: »

Yes; they do.

Majority don't.

lazygal

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Ours is a Catholic school, no mention of religion in our policy,we have children of many religions and none. We have always had a lay person as chairperson of our BOM.

I am always a little amused when threads seem to include only Catholic schools are prioritizing children who are Catholics. Many "faith schools" will give preference to their own religion.

What is your school's enrolment policy, if you don't mind stating it? You're in a gaelscoil, am I right?

I'm perfectly aware other faith schools discriminate. I've been told not to even apply to the CofI school in our area because my children won't get a place. However, given that 90%+ are Catholic, it is mainly Catholic schools that people will be dealing with.

mordeith

It's all made up lads.

The_Valeyard

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Ultimately, it appears that Catholic ethos schools are entitled to indoctrinate as they so wish, within the remits of the Catholic religion. If parents are not happy about this, then they need to be proactive and either lobby the TDs/government on the removal of religious education from schools, or go about setting up their own educate together schools.

If I move to a non-Catholic country, I don't have much of an option in terms of schooling so would be expected to row in with whatever is there, or maybe I would be excluded, I don't know. Would I be allowed to sit in class whilst religion lesson was being taught?

If people are unhappy with the services that are being provided, they need to be proactive. Moaning solves nothing!


To answer someone who had a query, I don't have anything against Educate Together schools but it seems anyone who is anti-religion is pro-Educate Together and are constantly singing their praises. Are they really that impressive?! Maybe! My friend worked in one a couple of times and thought discipline was an issue but perhaps true can be said for other schools also.

Any teacher I know refuses to send their kids to ET schools. They seem to have lower grades by second level schooling and behaviour can be an issue. ET is all the rage by very leftist and militant atheist parents. My niece's and nephews go to local State schools, no problems at all with it. Religion is opt in or opt out.

Wright

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Majority don't.

Source please.

If they didn't, why bother doing it at all :pac: what does magicking up loaves and fishes have to do with teaching morals? :pac:

zeffabelli

They also can hire only Catholic teachers if they want.

No other place can you discriminate in hiring practise.

Ireland got an EU exemption to practise religious discrimination.

So you need to hen peck the EU powers that be because they are the only ones who might do something about this.....and other backwards practises.

Gerry T

purplecow1977 wrote: »

That article is 3 years old so do you have anything more up to date?

In fairness I would even take that article with a grain of salt, and the trend is moving away from religion with time, not toward it.

Even if it were a 50/50 situation, then govt run schools should provide 50% for religious and 50% non religious/educate together. Not the 90% religious at present.

My kids went to a religious primary, for one reason only. The school had a great reputation, it was a feeder into the secondary I though would be right for them. My kids will make their own minds up about religion, hopefully making a balanced decision, at the right time. RE is neither shoved down their throats nor are they told its wrong.

Parents should have a choice that's all.

lazygal

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Any teacher I know refuses to send their kids to ET schools. They seem to have lower grades by second level schooling and behaviour can be an issue. ET is all the rage by very leftist and militant atheist parents. My niece's and nephews go to local State schools, no problems at all with it. Religion is opt in or opt out.

This is a joke, right?!

I'm not totally in love with the ET model, but it teaches the same curriculum as other primary schools and is subject to the same inspections. Do you have any stats to back up your comments on grades and the political and religious views of the parents who send their children to them?

purplecow1977

Gerry T wrote: »

In fairness I would even take that article with a grain of salt, and the trend is moving away from religion with time, not toward it.

Even if it were a 50/50 situation, then govt run schools should provide 50% for religious and 50% non religious/educate together. Not the 90% religious at present.

My kids went to a religious primary, for one reason only. The school had a great reputation, it was a feeder into the secondary I though would be right for them. My kids will make their own minds up about religion, hopefully making a balanced decision, at the right time. RE is neither shoved down their throats nor are they told its wrong.

Parents should have a choice that's all.

I agree they should have a choice, but generally choices are provided if the need is there.

1000 fans got together recently to sing a Foo Fighters song to persuade them to come and play a gig in their town. It worked!

People that want change need to get the wheels turning. Many say they are unhappy but are they willing to change it??!

purplecow1977

zeffabelli wrote: »

They also can hire only Catholic teachers if they want.

Yes this is scandalous and teachers are opposed to this.
https://www.into.ie/ROI/Publications/INTOSubmissions/Submission_S371.pdf

LGBT teachers are forced to keep their sexuality hidden until they get permanency and even then, may not feel like they can be 'free'.

Aineoil

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Any teacher I know refuses to send their kids to ET schools. They seem to have lower grades by second level schooling and behaviour can be an issue. ET is all the rage by very leftist and militant atheist parents. My niece's and nephews go to local State schools, no problems at all with it. Religion is opt in or opt out.

I'm a primary school teacher and I sent my child to an ET school while I work in a school with a catholic ethos.

inocybe

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Any teacher I know refuses to send their kids to ET schools. They seem to have lower grades by second level schooling and behaviour can be an issue. ET is all the rage by very leftist and militant atheist parents. My niece's and nephews go to local State schools, no problems at all with it. Religion is opt in or opt out.

ET is not all the rage for this atheist parent. I would like secular schooling with all religion on your own time.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I agree they should have a choice, but generally choices are provided if the need is there.

1000 fans got together recently to sing a Foo Fighters song to persuade them to come and play a gig in their town. It worked!

People that want change need to get the wheels turning. Many say they are unhappy but are they willing to change it??!

The problem with choice is that it leads to endless segregation and duplication. How do you decide on demand? If one family wants a Jehovah's Witness school should that choice be facilitated? If one family wants a Mormon school should that be facilitated? In many areas there are small schools close together, all with a principal, admin resources etc. all because the Catholics go here, the Gaelscoil parents go here, the Protestants go here and the militant leftie atheists go here. It would make more sense to have a smaller number larger schools with a more efficient use of resources that don't need to know a child's religious background for the purposes of enrolment.
But then again people have a weird attachment to the current system. That doesn't make the current system the right way to educate our children. It just means people don't like change, even when the change is a positive thing.