Religion in junior infants

The_Valeyard

lazygal wrote: »

This is a joke, right?!

I'm not totally in love with the ET model, but it teaches the same curriculum as other primary schools and is subject to the same inspections. Do you have any stats to back up your comments on grades and the political and religious views of the parents who send their children to them?

Why would it be a joke? Because it simply something you don't like? I'm going on friends and family who teach in the educational sector and two who teach in ET schools. Those who teach in ETaalways tell family members not to send their kids to ET but to gaelscoil instead.

DarkoT

My opinion is that children should not be forced in to religion so small, that subject should be optional

lazygal

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Why would it be a joke? Because it simply something you don't like? I'm going on friends and family who teach in the educational sector and two who teach in ET schools. Those who teach in ETaalways tell family members not to send their kids to ET but to gaelscoil instead.

I hear the opposite about our local gaelscoil-it spends enormous amounts of time on religion, weekly masses and other such things. I don't like the gaelscoil model at all myself. It's just more duplication on another exclusionary ground.
Any stats on your claims in your first post?

Fleawuss

This topic is turning into the next major issue for social progress. Maybe those here who are fed up of the current way of doing business will decide that typing on the internet isn't enough. Change never comes through venting.

The_Valeyard

lazygal wrote: »

I hear the opposite about our local gaelscoil-it spends enormous amounts of time on religion, weekly masses and other such things. I don't like the gaelscoil model at all myself. It's just more duplication on another exclusionary ground.
Any stats on your claims in your first post?

If you read my post you would have seals I went on what framily and friends who are teachers are telling me. our local gaelscoil spends very little time on religious education or mass. never heard of that happening. Could be your imagination. My mates who teach in second level schools claim that the level of Irish is such a high standard from the gaelacoil that those children spend more time to concentrate on maths, science, etc.

My relative who teaches in a nearby ET primary school spends an abnormal amount of time on English to to high level of non-native English speakers in the class. She also complains of parents thinking they know better than teachers in terms of content and lesson plans.

Wright

Gerry T wrote: »

In fairness I would even take that article with a grain of salt, and the trend is moving away from religion with time, not toward it.

This would be assuming education is in any way progressive in this country, which is a hilarious thing to suggest. Mandatory religion and Irish show that.

One eyed Jack

lazygal wrote: »

The problem with choice is that it leads to endless segregation and duplication. How do you decide on demand? If one family wants a Jehovah's Witness school should that choice be facilitated? If one family wants a Mormon school should that be facilitated? In many areas there are small schools close together, all with a principal, admin resources etc. all because the Catholics go here, the Gaelscoil parents go here, the Protestants go here and the militant leftie atheists go here. It would make more sense to have a smaller number larger schools with a more efficient use of resources that don't need to know a child's religious background for the purposes of enrolment.
But then again people have a weird attachment to the current system. That doesn't make the current system the right way to educate our children. It just means people don't like change, even when the change is a positive thing.

"If only everyone would listen to me, everyone would be so much happier and everything would be so much better for everyone"

Now all you have to do is sell that idea to people who think the exact opposite to the way you do, but the current system happens to suit them more than it does you.

That "weird attachment" you speak of, happens to mean something to some people.

Gerry T

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I agree they should have a choice, but generally choices are provided if the need is there.

1000 fans got together recently to sing a Foo Fighters song to persuade them to come and play a gig in their town. It worked!

People that want change need to get the wheels turning. Many say they are unhappy but are they willing to change it??!

Enda asked the church to divest the schools and hand over the buildings etc. The church did some funny move and put the buildings into a thrust of sorts which will make it near impossible to move the buildings out of church control.
So to move the govt will have to build a full set of schools nationwide, that's not going to happen in the next couple of decades.

But then a high percentage of people just don't really care, they will put the kids through a catholic school, let then do communion & confirmation. But don't do much other than that. I'm in Dublin and if you go to a church on a Sunday morning you will see some kids, usually in the 2 to 8 age group, but its mostly old people (50+). I think their thinking is just go through the motions.

purplecow1977

Gerry T wrote: »

Enda asked the church to divest the schools and hand over the buildings etc. The church did some funny move and put the buildings into a thrust of sorts which will make it near impossible to move the buildings out of church control.
So to move the govt will have to build a full set of schools nationwide, that's not going to happen in the next couple of decades.

But then a high percentage of people just don't really care, they will put the kids through a catholic school, let then do communion & confirmation. But don't do much other than that. I'm in Dublin and if you go to a church on a Sunday morning you will see some kids, usually in the 2 to 8 age group, but its mostly old people (50+). I think their thinking is just go through the motions.

You could be right.

I see it myself. Many making Communion and Confirmation but just for the money & day out! Easier to go along with things than propose a change. And maybe we're all guilty of that (Irish people in general!)

eviltwin

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Any teacher I know refuses to send their kids to ET schools. They seem to have lower grades by second level schooling and behaviour can be an issue. ET is all the rage by very leftist and militant atheist parents. My niece's and nephews go to local State schools, no problems at all with it. Religion is opt in or opt out.

What exactly is a militant atheist anyway?

One eyed Jack

Gerry T wrote: »

How do you backup your claim that that only a minority of people want a secular or educate together ethos. Less than 47% of Irish people consider themselves as religious.
http://www.thejournal.ie/how-religious-are-irish-people-550060-Aug2012/

I made no such claim?

You made the claim that if it were put to a vote in the morning that the vast majority of Irish people would shift to the ET model of education. I simply disagreed with your claim.

The onus is on you to come up with some hard evidence for your claim, otherwise it can be summarily dismissed.

Gerry T

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I made no such claim?

You made the claim that if it were put to a vote in the morning that the vast majority of Irish people would shift to the ET model of education. I simply disagreed with your claim.

The onus is on you to come up with some hard evidence for your claim, otherwise it can be summarily dismissed.

How can you get hard evidence, the survey quoted say only 47% of people identified themselves as practising religion (RC). But the census would say over 80% claim they are RC, but there was a rise of people claiming no religion by 50%. So what's the truth, of all the people in Ireland I know, from work, friends, hobbies etc.... I only know 1 family that could be considered as practising religion. The majority I know don't go to church unless its christmas, funeral, wedding, confirmation... that's it.
Do like the germans, if you claim your a catholic then the Govt stops a income tax... bring that in here any you would see the true colour of the Irish catholic.

The_Valeyard

eviltwin wrote: »

What exactly is a militant atheist anyway?

A militant atheist is one who is hostile towards religion. They differ from moderate atheists because they have the desire to propagate atheism and also hold religion to be harmful.

-Urban Dictionary. I do like their stuff.

bajer101

To the people who cannot see what the problem is and why a lot of parents have a problem with the current system, imagine you are a parent in this hypothetical situation. The only school available to you is a Muslim school. You have no real choice so you send your child there. In the morning you child will say Muslim prayers. They will read from the Koran and will be indoctrinated in Islam. You are not happy with this so you voice your concerns but you are told that there's no problem, sure can't your child just sit at the back of the class during the Islam classes? Or, why don't you just set up a non-Islamic school? Sure what's the problem, when they come home each day you can just de-indoctrinate them, or sure they will make their own mind up anyway. And what did you expect sending your child to a Muslim school. The majority of the population in your town is Muslim so just suck it up. These are basically the arguments that are being made on this thread about why there is no problem.

HIB

bajer101 wrote: »

To the people who cannot see what the problem is and why a lot of parents have a problem with the current system, imagine you are a parent in this hypothetical situation. The only school available to you is a Muslim school. You have no real choice so you send your child there. In the morning you child will say Muslim prayers. They will read from the Koran and will be indoctrinated in Islam. You are not happy with this so you voice your concerns but you are told that there's no problem, sure can't your child just sit at the back of the class during the Islam classes? Or, why don't you just set up a non-Islamic school? Sure what's the problem, when they come home each day you can just de-indoctrinate them, or sure they will make their own mind up anyway. And what did you expect sending your child to a Muslim school. The majority of the population in your town is Muslim so just suck it up. These are basically the arguments that are being made on this thread about why there is no problem.

To be honest, I still don't see the problem. They're not teaching your child to be a sadist. They're teaching them about love, peace, forgiveness etc. I'm pretty sure they don't get into the fine points of Canon law with five year olds.

byhookorbycrook

lazygal wrote: »

What is your school's enrolment policy, if you don't mind stating it? You're in a gaelscoil, am I right?

.

Siblings first , then 1st come, first served, at present.

uck51js9zml2yt

lazygal wrote: »

Ok, I know this might be a joke for you, but I know people who can't get their children into a school (I might be one of them if we move house) because all local schools prioritise Catholic children from and outside the area for enrolment over non Catholic children.

Do they indeed??All schools ?

We are not catholic (but are non denominational Christian) we couldn't get our son into an ET school despite enrolling him 4. 1/2 years ago. There was no issue him starting in the local RC school in September.
We've not decided on his participation in RE but want to see the books first before we decide.
He won't be making his communion or confirmation.

bajer101

HIB wrote: »

To be honest, I still don't see the problem. They're not teaching your child to be a sadist. They're teaching them about love, peace, forgiveness etc. I'm pretty sure they don't get into the fine points of Canon law with five year olds.

Sure! You'd have no problem with your impressionable child being indoctrinated into a religion that you don't believe in! But I suppose in this hypothetical scenario you could probably just be thankful that your child got a place in the only available school as a Muslim child from 100 miles away would have got a place ahead of your child.

And you don't know what level of indoctrination your child will undergo. They might get a nice moderate teacher, or a rabid zealot. Just luck of the draw, but what's the problem!

mahoganygas

Fleawuss wrote: »

This topic is turning into the next major issue for social progress. Maybe those here who are fed up of the current way of doing business will decide that typing on the internet isn't enough. Change never comes through venting.

On that note, I encourage you all to sign this petition.

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/The_Joint_Oireachtas_SubCommittee_on_Public_Petitions_Equal_school_access_for_unbaptised_children/?pv=14

One eyed Jack

Gerry T wrote: »

How can you get hard evidence, the survey quoted say only 47% of people identified themselves as practising religion (RC). But the census would say over 80% claim they are RC, but there was a rise of people claiming no religion by 50%. So what's the truth, of all the people in Ireland I know, from work, friends, hobbies etc.... I only know 1 family that could be considered as practising religion. The majority I know don't go to church unless its christmas, funeral, wedding, confirmation... that's it.

Well I can at least empathise with your position in being asked to present hard evidence of something you happen to believe but for which you have no evidence. It's an awkward one alright, but it'd be rude of me to press you on it.

Do like the germans, if you claim your a catholic then the Govt stops a income tax... bring that in here any you would see the true colour of the Irish catholic.

I don't know that you would either tbh. German attitudes are very different to Irish attitudes. Chances are Irish people would simply cowtow to having another tax tacked onto their pay packets. Over in Germany their whole attitude is a different story, which is why you can't just cherry pick what suits you from another country.

I'd even object to that myself tbh as I've never given a cent to the RCC, and I don't intend to start now. I'd also be an advocate of Ireland becoming a truly secular country, but I couldn't see that happening in my lifetime. No harm in working towards it together though, but it's only a matter of how we go about it is the problem.

I'm not a fan of intolerance nor bigotry in any form, whether it be religious or non-religious people, and petty sniping back and forth gets nobody anywhere fast.

HIB

bajer101 wrote: »

Sure! You'd have no problem with your impressionable child being indoctrinated into a religion that you don't believe in! But I suppose in this hypothetical scenario you could probably just be thankful that your child got a place in the only available school as a Muslim child from 100 miles away would have got a place ahead of your child.

And you don't know what level of indoctrination your child will undergo. They might get a nice moderate teacher, or a rabid zealot. Just luck of the draw, but what's the problem!

I'd be pretty confident the teacher won't be a rabid zealot. Not being smart, but we live in Ireland, not Alabama.

HIB

bajer101 wrote: »

Sure! You'd have no problem with your impressionable child being indoctrinated into a religion that you don't believe in! But I suppose in this hypothetical scenario you could probably just be thankful that your child got a place in the only available school as a Muslim child from 100 miles away would have got a place ahead of your child.

And you don't know what level of indoctrination your child will undergo. They might get a nice moderate teacher, or a rabid zealot. Just luck of the draw, but what's the problem!

Forgot to answer your question.....
Yeah I'd have absolutely no problem with my child being taught the basics of Islam. Moderate Islam, moderate Catholicism, moderate Church of England, moderate Buddhism. I'm pretty confident they're all pretty similar at Junior Infants level ...... you know.... be nice to people, don't steal, don't tell lies etc.

bajer101

HIB wrote: »

I'd be pretty confident the teacher won't be a rabid zealot. Not being smart, but we live in Ireland, not Alabama.

My experience has been different. I had to pull my daughter out of the Catholic school she was in because she was bullied and threatened by her teacher because she said she didn't believe in God. She was a woman in her thirties and probably appeared normal to most people and you mightn't consider her a zealot - but I did. When I started talking about it and asking for advice I learned that I wasn't alone and that this wasn't a unique scenario. They walk among us!

HIB

bajer101 wrote: »

My experience has been different. I had to pull my daughter out of the Catholic school she was in because she was bullied and threatened by her teacher because she said she didn't believe in God. She was a woman in her thirties and probably appeared normal to most people and you mightn't consider her a zealot - but I did. When I started talking about it and asking for advice I learned that I wasn't alone and that this wasn't a unique scenario. They walk among us!

I'm surprised by that to be honest.
If I thought a religious nut/zealot was teaching my child I would take issue as well. Not just because of the religion being taught to my child, but more because I would be worried about the overall mental health of someone who's that zealous about anything.

bajer101

HIB wrote: »

I'm surprised by that to be honest.
If I thought a religious nut/zealot was teaching my child I would take issue as well. Not just because of the religion being taught to my child, but more because I would be worried about the overall mental health of someone who's that zealous about anything.

I was astounded tbh, but apparently it is not uncommon. The majority of schools are run by the religious orders and a lot of them push this agenda. The won't hire atheist teachers. They can refuse entry to non-catholic children. And they can indoctrinate children while only paying basic lip service to the law. All while being funded by the State. The solution is obvious. Just remove religious education from schools and stop the discrimination.

byhookorbycrook

bajer101 wrote: »

I was astounded tbh, but apparently it is not uncommon. The majority of schools are run by the religious orders and a lot of them push this agenda. The won't hire atheist teachers. They can refuse entry to non-catholic children. And they can indoctrinate children while only paying basic lip service to the law. All while being funded by the State. The solution is obvious. Just remove religious education from schools and stop the discrimination.

Source?

Gerry T

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Source?

96% under religious orders. 90% by catholic orders.

https://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/Diversity-of-Patronage/Diversity-of-Patronage-Survey-of-Parents.html

The_Valeyard

bajer101 wrote: »

My experience has been different. I had to pull my daughter out of the Catholic school she was in because she was bullied and threatened by her teacher because she said she didn't believe in God. She was a woman in her thirties and probably appeared normal to most people and you mightn't consider her a zealot - but I did. When I started talking about it and asking for advice I learned that I wasn't alone and that this wasn't a unique scenario. They walk among us!

I do not belive this post.

bajer101

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Source?

"Most (96%) primary schools in Ireland are owned by religious patrons.
90% of these schools are owned by and are under the patronage of
the Catholic Church."

https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Conferences/Patronage-and-Pluralism-in-the-Primary-Sector/Parents-we-would-like-to-hear-what-you-think.pdf

"if you want to get a job as a teacher you have to accept that Irish school teachers must be Catholic missionaries. You must:

(a) have a Catholic Certificate in Religious Studies, which has as a programme objective that the trainee teacher ‘engage in personal reflection, research and discourse with a view to enhancing their own religious awareness,’ and which includes such learning outcomes as ‘demonstrate competence in the planning of liturgy, prayer and sacraments (Reconciliation, Eucharist, Confirmation) in the Catholic primary school,’ and

(b) uphold the religious ethos of the school, which the Catholic Church sees as a central part of the mission of the Church, and part of the commission given by the Risen Christ to the apostles in Mt 28:18: “Go, make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.”

http://atheist.ie/2015/07/irish-school-teachers-catholic-missionaries/

And as for them being able to refuse entry to unbaptized children, this has been in the media a lot recently and is the subject of the the current petition which was posted a few posts back. That petition cites the laws that protect this scenario.

Surely none of this is news? This is part of the big problem with the current setup.

To throw my tuppence worth into this increasingly hysterical argument:

My kids (now going into TY and 6th year) have attended the following (in order)

Educate together school
Public School in the U.S (no religion)
Catholic Primary school
Presbyterian secondary school

We moved countries a couple of times for work reasons

What was best? Honest answer, they had a great experience in all places. Some teachers were
better, some curricula were better. But honestly at the end of the day, kids take most of their guidance from
the home. We are Catholic but don't go to mass every week. My kids I would describe more as spiritual than religious.

Did going to a Catholic school 'damage' them? Not in the slightest. Nor did going to a Presbyterian school or multi denom or U.S public school.

Relax, people.