Religion in junior infants

Aineoil

bajer101 wrote: »

And you don't know what level of indoctrination your child will undergo. They might get a nice moderate teacher, or a rabid zealot. Just luck of the draw, but what's the problem!

I have seen both the moderates and the zealots at work, to be honest. I cringe at the zealot things I have witnessed.

If I was brave enough to draw attention to the zealots I'd be eaten alive by other staff members.

In fairness things have improved over the last twenty seven years, the majority of the younger teachers treat the religion workbook as a colouring book and pay lip service to the whole religion content that is taught. I'm an older teacher but I never liked the religious part of the education system in Ireland.

If I had my own way, I would get rid of teaching religion in schools but I don't have that luxury.

As a learning support teacher I don't have to teach religion thankfully. I didn't attend some of the masses we had last year - they are tedious- and I just told my principal I needed the time to put in place very necessary paperwork to gain resource hours for some children for 2015/16

There was no problem with that at the time as there was a huge amount of paperwork to be done. I wouldn't elect not to attend religious ceremonies all the time because they did hire me on the premise that I would teach religion, so you have to be seen to be part of the school's ethos.

Most catholic schools ask a related religious question at interview.

Please don't shoot me for what I posted, I am just trying to be very honest.

bajer101

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I do not belive this post.

I'm not surprised. This was the reaction I was met with when I started the thread in the Atheist forum last year. I was also met with a lot of the same sentiments that I have seen in this thread, such as I should suck it up as it was a Catholic school and what did I expect. I was accused of making stuff up and of trolling, but I was completely honest and discussed the situation honestly. When I was being constantly accused of lying a friend of mine who knew the exact details of the situation jumped in as he knew I was going through enough shít without having to deal with the compassionate Christians who were slagging me off. He offered to put up €1000 as a bet to prove that what I was saying was correct and that the money would be donated to charity. No one took him up on it. I'm not lying. It happened. And from my experience I discovered that my situation wasn't unique. The thread is in the Atheist forum and it is from Sept last year. Should be easy enough to find. I am not going to go through the same crap again defending myself.

The_Valeyard

[Deleted User] wrote: »

To throw my tuppence worth into this increasingly hysterical argument:

My kids (now going into TY and 6th year) have attended the following (in order)

Educate together school
Public School in the U.S (no religion)
Catholic Primary school
Presbyterian secondary school

We moved countries a couple of times for work reasons

What was best? Honest answer, they had a great experience in all places. Some teachers were
better, some curricula were better. But honestly at the end of the day, kids take most of their guidance from
the home. We are Catholic but don't go to mass every week. My kids I would describe more as spiritual than religious.

Did going to a Catholic school 'damage' them? Not in the slightest. Nor did going to a Presbyterian school or multi denom or U.S public school.

Relax, people.

Suppose the thing to also remember is most teachers have all attended the same or similar teaching course. So whether it's public/ private etc they all come from the same source.

HIB

Deleted User wrote: »

To throw my tuppence worth into this increasingly hysterical argument:

My kids (now going into TY and 6th year) have attended the following (in order)

Educate together school
Public School in the U.S (no religion)
Catholic Primary school
Presbyterian secondary school

We moved countries a couple of times for work reasons

What was best? Honest answer, they had a great experience in all places. Some teachers were
better, some curricula were better. But honestly at the end of the day, kids take most of their guidance from
the home. We are Catholic but don't go to mass every week. My kids I would describe more as spiritual than religious.

Did going to a Catholic school 'damage' them? Not in the slightest. Nor did going to a Presbyterian school or multi denom or U.S public school.

Relax, people.

Totally agree... but I would add one thing.
I'm pretty sure being taught by zealous/militant people, be they Muslim, Christian, or atheist could be damaging.

The_Valeyard

bajer101 wrote: »

I'm not surprised. This was the reaction I was met with when I started the thread in the Atheist forum last year. I was also met with a lot of the same sentiments that I have seen in this thread, such as I should suck it up as it was a Catholic school and what did I expect. I was accused of making stuff up and of trolling, but I was completely honest and discussed the situation honestly. When I was being constantly accused of lying a friend of mine who knew the exact details of the situation jumped in as he knew I was going through enough shít without having to deal with the compassionate Christians who were slagging me off. He offered to put up €1000 as a bet to prove that what I was saying was correct and that the money would be donated to charity. No one took him up on it. I'm not lying. It happened. And from my experience I discovered that my situation wasn't unique. The thread is in the Atheist forum and it is from Sept last year. Should be easy enough to find. I am not going to go through the same crap again defending myself.

In the A&A forum? I will go looking for it.

If that really happened the teacher would be disciplined, or it would have made news and the A&A crowd would have started some sort of campaign or The Journal would have ran a story on it.

bajer101

Aineoil wrote: »

I have seen both the moderates and the zealots at work, to be honest. I cringe at the zealot things I have witnessed.

If I was brave enough to draw attention to the zealots I'd be eaten alive by other staff members.

In fairness things have improved over the last twenty seven years, the majority of the younger teachers treat the religion workbook as a colouring book and pay lip service to the whole religion content that is taught. I'm an older teacher but I never liked the religious part of the education system in Ireland.

When I had to send my daughter to the local Catholic school I wasn't that worried. Even though I am an atheist I would have assumed that most teachers would have your attitude and the attitude of the other teachers who have posted her. I just assumed that we had all moved on and that religious education was just a nod and wink. But the problem is that this is not the case. The zealots are out there, as you have said and they are protected by the law. We shouldn't have to rely on hoping that our kid's teachers will be normal people with a bit of cop on. That's just not good enough.

I have mixed feelings when I see this topic come up.. I am glad it is getting discussed and conversations like this will help change. But I am also thoroughly depressed to find read some of the comments defending the current status quo. As I discovered in my situation the people who seemed to have the most Christian attitudes of compassion were the atheists and the people who seemed to be thoroughly lacking in compassion and who didn't seem to care about other people were the Christians.

bajer101

The_Valeyard wrote: »

In the A&A forum? I will go looking for it.

If that really happened the teacher would be disciplined, or it would have made news and the A&A crowd would have started some sort of campaign or The Journal would have ran a story on it.

Here you go.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057283763

Why would you assume that? It is very common. The poster above you is a teacher and has just posted that s/he has witnessed zealots. Atheism Ireland are running major campaigns at the moment trying to tackle the root cause of the problem and few people here seem to be aware of it. Even if AI were aware of my problem last year I doubt if they would run with it or use it. That is not their style. Anyway, I would never have allowed that to happen or have allowed the journal to run a story on my daughter.

Not a NSA agent

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Any teacher I know refuses to send their kids to ET schools. They seem to have lower grades by second level schooling and behaviour can be an issue. ET is all the rage by very leftist and militant atheist parents. My niece's and nephews go to local State schools, no problems at all with it. Religion is opt in or opt out.

This kind of attitude is a large part of the problem. All the rage because its the only option for many people who dont want their children treated as lesser. Of course the same people who spout that kind of crap are the first to whine about catholic bashing.

Spread the love

I'm a primary school teacher and to be honest I am fed up of this topic coming up time and time again. It is not the Catholic Church's fault that there is limited choice for parents who do not want their child taught religion, it is the fault of the government for not supplying enough choice and quick enough. The government's response to an increased and varied population was to cram everyone into bigger classes and tar everyone with the same brush. They should have responded to this issue in a proactive way starting at least 10 years ago. I honestly believe that everyone should have a choice in how their child is educated but laying blame at the door of Catholic schools who have provided an established and from my experience quality education to pupils over the years is not the way to go. Lobby your local TDs etc. be proactive about building more schools to adapt to suit Ireland's changing needs.

inocybe

It's not great for a young child to have to disregard what the teacher is teaching though is it. You want them to respect and believe their teacher, but at the same time you're contradicting what they present as fact.
My son was allowed to do a project of his choice during the hours and hours of confirmation preparation. He chose 'mythical creatures' as his topic.

frostyjacks

The atheists will be loathe to admit it, but Catholic schools are the best. So instead of sending their kids to the ET school down the road, they're looking for a power grab. Don't want the hassle of spending time and money building their own schools, so just take them off the Church instead. And they were surprised when the Church refused to hand over the deeds?

lazygal

frostyjacks wrote: »

The atheists will be loathe to admit it, but Catholic schools are the best. So instead of sending their kids to the ET school down the road, they're looking for a power grab. Don't want the hassle of spending time and money building their own schools, so just take them off the Church instead. And they were surprised when the Church refused to hand over the deeds?

Really, you're speaking for all atheists now? How do you know what all atheists think about Catholic and Educate Together schools?

purplecow1977

Oh no, they're on to us!!!
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/religious-education-not-taken-seriously-says-study-1.2305732#.VcCoZX4bG2o.twitter

bajer101

Spread the love wrote: »

I'm a primary school teacher and to be honest I am fed up of this topic coming up time and time again. It is not the Catholic Church's fault that there is limited choice for parents who do not want their child taught religion, it is the fault of the government for not supplying enough choice and quick enough. The government's response to an increased and varied population was to cram everyone into bigger classes and tar everyone with the same brush. They should have responded to this issue in a proactive way starting at least 10 years ago. I honestly believe that everyone should have a choice in how their child is educated but laying blame at the door of Catholic schools who have provided an established and from my experience quality education to pupils over the years is not the way to go. Lobby your local TDs etc. be proactive about building more schools to adapt to suit Ireland's changing needs.

While it is true that governments of the past are to blame for offloading the education of children to the religious orders, it is simply not true to say that religious orders are not to blame and that the government have done nothing about it. Ruairi Quinn as minister of Education tried to solve this problem and he was met with a brick well when he tried to discuss it with the religious orders. They wouldn't facilitate moving the school properties to the state even though morally they have no right to these properties. The religious orders have fought tooth and nail to maintain the current system, blocking change while happily accepting state funds to pay for the upkeep of the buildings and the funding to run them.

frostyjacks wrote: »

The atheists will be loathe to admit it, but Catholic schools are the best. So instead of sending their kids to the ET school down the road, they're looking for a power grab. Don't want the hassle of spending time and money building their own schools, so just take them off the Church instead. And they were surprised when the Church refused to hand over the deeds?

Nonsense. They are morally the citizens buildings. The citizens have paid for them. But the church doesn't do morals. It should also be noted that they also refused to pay their share for the abuse scandals as they cried the poor mouth. When asked if they could give up some properties to pay for their share of the compensation from the abuse cases they gave the State two fingers. Nice people.

Aineoil

bajer101 wrote: »

When I had to send my daughter to the local Catholic school I wasn't that worried. Even though I am an atheist I would have assumed that most teachers would have your attitude and the attitude of the other teachers who have posted her. I just assumed that we had all moved on and that religious education was just a nod and wink. But the problem is that this is not the case. The zealots are out there, as you have said and they are protected by the law. We shouldn't have to rely on hoping that our kid's teachers will be normal people with a bit of cop on. That's just not good enough.

I have mixed feelings when I see this topic come up.. I am glad it is getting discussed and conversations like this will help change. But I am also thoroughly depressed to find read some of the comments defending the current status quo. As I discovered in my situation the people who seemed to have the most Christian attitudes of compassion were the atheists and the people who seemed to be thoroughly lacking in compassion and who didn't seem to care about other people were the Christians.

I totally agree with you.

Both myself and my husband are agnostic. We value kindness, compassion and empathy....but you don't need a religion to value and want those qualities.

My own colleagues think I'm too soft and don't have the right attitude towards discipline with some children. I believe in restorative justice.

Trying to explain that to other staff members is like explaining quantum physics.

bajer101

Aineoil wrote: »

I totally agree with you.

Both myself and my husband are agnostic. We value kindness, compassion and empathy....but you don't need a religion to value and want those qualities.

My own colleagues think I'm too soft and don't have the right attitude towards discipline with some children. I believe in restorative justice.

Trying to explain that to other staff members is like explaining quantum physics.

If you are lacking in decent human values you are not lacking in religion you are lacking in empathy and compassion. Ten commandments won't fix that. These threads really do depress me though. The so called compassionate Christians challenge you at ever turn and demand sources for any point. These posts get thanked by others who believe the same. You then provide the sources that they requested and they don't even acknowledge it. They don't say, "Thanks for that, this is a good debate". They just shift the goalposts and look for another reason to attack you and maintain their status quo.

They are not honest actors in this debate and they have no interest in facts. I console myself with the knowledge that it will change. It might be five years or it might be fifty years, but it is now just a question of when. My great grand children won't have to put up with this bullshít. They will go to school and there will be no mention of self replicating zombies who died to forgive them of sins that they never committed and who they can get to eat on a Sunday. They will look back at us and think what sort of idiots were we to allow that nonsense anywhere near the publicly funded education system.

eviltwin

The_Valeyard wrote: »

In the A&A forum? I will go looking for it.

If that really happened the teacher would be disciplined, or it would have made news and the A&A crowd would have started some sort of campaign or The Journal would have ran a story on it.

It doesn't work like that. My own child ended up very distressed after a talk by a certain group and their views on homosexuality. I complained, nothing happened. I have complained multiple times about that school, no one cares. My daughter has left school now but she's still on anxiety medicine. I think the bullying in school and the attitude of the staff is to blame.

purplecow1977

eviltwin wrote: »

It doesn't work like that. My own child ended up very distressed after a talk by a certain group and their views on homosexuality. I complained, nothing happened. I have complained multiple times about that school, no one cares. My daughter has left school now but she's still on anxiety medicine. I think the bullying in school and the attitude of the staff is to blame.

Was there another school in the locality you could have moved your child to?
If you were that unhappy with it and making regular complaints, surely that would have been the better option?

harr

Op here ,a little off topic but was discussing this with a neighbour today and I told him my beliefs as he is agnostic and he informed me I was Deist ...I don't mind admitting I never heard of someone being Deist...and yes I did google it and yes it sounds very like my beliefs...then again I am not sure I like or want a label

purplecow1977

harr wrote: »

Op here ,a little off topic but was discussing this with a neighbour today and I told him my beliefs as he is agnostic and he informed me I was Deist ...I don't mind admitting I never heard of someone being Deist...and yes I did google it and yes it sounds very like my beliefs...then again I am not sure I like or want a label

I don't know what a Deist is.

But I will say, I don't think you need a 'label' for what you are. You are not alone. And I did look at the new Grow in Love book online and it does seem to be more God orientated than the previous Alive O. But I think many parents are of the opinion 'it is no harm', and in majority of cases, it isn't, particularly if religion isn't practised at home.

bajer101

eviltwin wrote: »

It doesn't work like that. My own child ended up very distressed after a talk by a certain group and their views on homosexuality. I complained, nothing happened. I have complained multiple times about that school, no one cares. My daughter has left school now but she's still on anxiety medicine. I think the bullying in school and the attitude of the staff is to blame.

But how dare you complain? Did you not realise when you sent your child to that school that the majority of the country aren't homosexual and you should just toe the line. Did you not know that it was a Catholic school and their ethos disagrees with that sort of thing? Why didn't you just magic up a new school next door?

Me talking - I am really sorry for what your kid went through. This stuff makes me very angry. I hope she is ok.

One eyed Jack

bajer101 wrote: »

If you are lacking in decent human values you are not lacking in religion you are lacking in empathy and compassion. Ten commandments won't fix that. These threads really do depress me though. The so called compassionate Christians challenge you at ever turn and demand sources for any point. These posts get thanked by others who believe the same. You then provide the sources that they requested and they don't even acknowledge it. They don't say, "Thanks for that, this is a good debate". They just shift the goalposts and look for another reason to attack you and maintain their status quo.

They are not honest actors in this debate and they have no interest in facts. I console myself with the knowledge that it will change. It might be five years or it might be fifty years, but it is now just a question of when. My great grand children won't have to put up with this bullshít. They will go to school and there will be no mention of self replicating zombies who died to forgive them of sins that they never committed and who they can get to eat on a Sunday. They will look back at us and think what sort of idiots were we to allow that nonsense anywhere near the publicly funded education system.

You must surely understand that when the only source is yourself and your friend, well, people are naturally going to be very sceptical of your experience, there being two sides to every story and all that. Why should they take your word over what hasn't been their own experience? You're sceptical of religion, and yet you claim you can't understand why a religious person would be sceptical of an atheist giving it welly about your experience?

We're religious, not stupid. You may struggle with the difference given your opinion of religion.

SpaceTime

bajer101 wrote: »

As I discovered in my situation the people who seemed to have the most Christian attitudes of compassion were the atheists and the people who seemed to be thoroughly lacking in compassion and who didn't seem to care about other people were the Christians.

The major difference is the people who are concerned about public policy, social inclusion and how people feel are people who are have empathy and understanding.

The extreme religious viewpoint tends to be based on pure dogma and is about an abstract point of view and not about the human side of things at all.

One eyed Jack

SpaceTime wrote: »

The major difference is the people who are concerned about public policy, social inclusion and how people feel are people who are have empathy and understanding.

The extreme religious viewpoint tends to be based on pure dogma and is about an abstract point of view and not about the human side of things at all.

I have plenty of empathy and understanding, but that empathy and understanding comes in short supply when I have to put up with childish nonsense like some of the crap that's been posted in this thread and elsewhere on Boards which has led to an online echo chamber of strength in numbers in an online forum that bears no reflection on reality.

And that's fine, I can just about tolerate it, but to be expected that I am actually under some obligation to actually have to take anyone's opinion seriously? Well, I'm just as human as you are in that respect.

bajer101

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You must surely understand that when the only source is yourself and your friend, well, people are naturally going to be very sceptical of your experience, there being two sides to every story and all that. Why should they take your word over what hasn't been their own experience? You're sceptical of religion, and yet you claim you can't understand why a religious person would be sceptical of an atheist giving it welly about your experience?

We're religious, not stupid. You may struggle with the difference given your opinion of religion.

You misunderstand. My friend jumped in when he saw that I was being accused of creating a post for trolling or attention reasons. He offered proof that this was not the case and put it to the doubters. They backed off.

A teacher has posted on this thread that they have witnessed zealous like behavior from colleagues, but has been afraid to report it. But you will just ignore that too.

You have a predetermined point of view and nothing I say, or anyone else can say here will change that. That is your problem, not mine. And that is the problem with indoctrination. You were indoctrinated to believe these fairy tales when you were a child and the woo stuck. Which actually goes against the argument that some people have made here about the kids being able to make their own minds up when they get older!

If you really could could make your own mind up, how come you stuck with Catholicism? Why not Islam with their flying unicorns? Why not Hinduism with their multi limbed elephants? Why not Buddhism with their belief that we all get re-incarnated? Tell me - what was it about self replicating zombie that made you believe? Is there any chance that you were indoctrinated as kid?

One eyed Jack

bajer101 wrote: »

You misunderstand. My friend jumped in when he saw that I was being accused of creating a post for trolling or attention reasons. He offered proof that this was not the case and put it to the doubters. They backed off.

I'm well aware of your thread and the situation you presented and were looking for advice on, and you were given plenty of advice, but you chose not to take any of it, and that's fine, your prerogative and all that and I'm not going to drag another thread from another forum and hash it out here with you again.

A teacher has posted on this thread that they have witnessed zealous like behavior from colleagues, but has been afraid to report it. But you will just ignore that too.

I'm not ignoring anything, but what good is saying on an online forum that you know something goes on, but you don't want to report it? How can anyone be expected to act if something isn't brought to their attention? If it's brought to their attention through the proper channels, then they are obliged to act, and if they don't, the matter can be proceeded further. No, that's not me being naive, there are procedures in place for this stuff. Don't want to engage in the process, as long and arduous and as much of a pain in the hole as it is, well, that again is their prerogative.

You have a predetermined point of view and nothing I say, or anyone else can say here will change that. That is your problem, not mine.And that is the problem with indoctrination. You were indoctrinated to believe these fairy tales when you were a child and the woo stuck.

How is your problem, my problem? Let's not forget - you're the one with the complaint here, not me. I'm viewing what you're saying with a healthy degree of scepticism, and you have a problem with that too as though you can't understand why that would be the case.

Which actually goes against the argument that some people have made here about the kids being able to make their own minds up when they get older!

Are you familiar at all with the concept of correlation does not mean causation? Who, in all honesty, knowing as much about me as I do about you, are you to even suggest that I am incapable of making up my own mind? I sincerely hope for your own sake you're not this patronising with people in your daily life who do not happen to share your opinion because in that case I can understand why your attitude towards them would get on their tits, to be quite frank about it.

If you really could could make your own mind up, how come you stuck with Catholicism? Why not Islam with their flying unicorns? Why not Hinduism with their multi limbed elephants? Why not Buddhism with their belief that we all get re-incarnated? Tell me - what was it about self replicating zombie that made you believe? Is there any chance that you were indoctrinated as kid?

I find it somewhat amusing tbh that you would suggest that I have a predetermined point of view, and nothing you or anyone else can say here will change that, and yet you can't see even the slightest hint of irony in your own post.

Beam in your own eye there much at all?

bajer101

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm well aware of your thread and the situation you presented and were looking for advice on, and you were given plenty of advice, but you chose not to take any of it, and that's fine, your prerogative and all that and I'm not going to drag another thread from another forum and hash it out here with you again.





I'm not ignoring anything, but what good is saying on an online forum that you know something goes on, but you don't want to report it? How can anyone be expected to act if something isn't brought to their attention? If it's brought to their attention through the proper channels, then they are obliged to act, and if they don't, the matter can be proceeded further. No, that's not me being naive, there are procedures in place for this stuff. Don't want to engage in the process, as long and arduous and as much of a pain in the hole as it is, well, that again is their prerogative.





How is your problem, my problem? Let's not forget - you're the one with the complaint here, not me. I'm viewing what you're saying with a healthy degree of scepticism, and you have a problem with that too as though you can't understand why that would be the case.





Are you familiar at all with the concept of correlation does not mean causation? Who, in all honesty, knowing as much about me as I do about you, are you to even suggest that I am incapable of making up my own mind? I sincerely hope for your own sake you're not this patronising with people in your daily life who do not happen to share your opinion because in that case I can understand why your attitude towards them would get on their tits, to be quite frank about it.





I find it somewhat amusing tbh that you would suggest that I have a predetermined point of view, and nothing you or anyone else can say here will change that, and yet you can't see even the slightest hint of irony in your own post.

Beam in your own eye there much at all?

Do you really want to do this? I suggest that we take this offline. I know I am right.

One eyed Jack

bajer101 wrote: »

Do you really want to do this? I suggest that we take this offline. I know I am right.

What are we, 12? Back in the school yard?

Maybe it's best we park it there and get back to focusing on the OP instead and helping them resolve their problem.

The_Valeyard

bajer101 wrote: »

Do you really want to do this? I suggest that we take this offline. I know I am right.

What!!!!! ???

Dude, no need for that. It's a debate forum, not Southpaw.

realdanbreen

harr wrote: »

Op here ,a little off topic but was discussing this with a neighbour today and I told him my beliefs as he is agnostic and he informed me I was Deist ...I don't mind admitting I never heard of someone being Deist...and yes I did google it and yes it sounds very like my beliefs...then again I am not sure I like or want a label

But if you don't want or like a label why do you say in your OP that 'we are catholic, but not practising'? Why do you say you are Catholic if you have no belief in either Christianity or Catholocism?