Religion in junior infants

Cabaal

Neyite wrote: »

That's your opinion. To me they are all cults who are happy to influence your thinking and take your money.

And you are wrong about RCC not cutting you off - in very recent history if you were excommunicated based on marrying another Christian, got pregnant out of wedlock, or lived in sin, your family were strongly encouraged to disown you and cast you out.

Had a relation who was a priest in the 50s, he left the priesthood at the time and was told by the bishop never to return home.

His family were told to destroy all photos of him by the local priest. (they didn't do this as they didn't believe what he did was wrong).

Due to the way he was ostracized by the church and the local community's (on the instruction of the local priests) he eventually moved to England.

In England he met a women and got married and they raised a family. My mother and her brother went to England in the 70's to find him and eventually encouraged him to visit Ireland again. Personally I'm proud that he did what he did, he was right and what the church did at the time was absolutely disgusting and evil.

Yep, they are nothing like a cult.....
:rolleyes:

NS77

Spread the love wrote: »

I'm a primary school teacher and to be honest I am fed up of this topic coming up time and time again. It is not the Catholic Church's fault that there is limited choice for parents who do not want their child taught religion, it is the fault of the government for not supplying enough choice and quick enough. The government's response to an increased and varied population was to cram everyone into bigger classes and tar everyone with the same brush. They should have responded to this issue in a proactive way starting at least 10 years ago. I honestly believe that everyone should have a choice in how their child is educated but laying blame at the door of Catholic schools who have provided an established and from my experience quality education to pupils over the years is not the way to go. Lobby your local TDs etc. be proactive about building more schools to adapt to suit Ireland's changing needs.

I'm saddened that a primary school teacher could post this. You do realise that State-schools are there to educate all the children of the nation?

In Ireland, the majority of schools are not Catholic-schools.. they're State schools under Catholic patronage and with a Catholic ethos, and this is the problem: No State school should have any religious patronage, religious ethos or religious admissions policy.

I'm saddened that as a primary school teacher you would advocate the division of young children based on religion, or lack thereof.

Cabaal

Spread the love wrote: »

....but laying blame at the door of Catholic schools who have provided an established and from my experience quality education to pupils over the years is not the way to go.

You make it sound like the catholic church runs the Department Of Education and pays all the teachers, in case you've missed something its the tax payer that pays for the teachers. Not the church. As such its completely insane to hold them in such high regard.

If the catholic church wants to pay the teachers then by all means they can have an exclusion policy all they want. But while tax payer money is being used to either build schools or pay the employee's in those schools then no school should be allowed to exclude anybody based on their religion or lack of.

Lobby your local TDs etc. be proactive about building more schools to adapt to suit Ireland's changing needs.

But thats a waste of tax payer money and you know right well it is, especially when we have perfectly suitable tax payer schools already. These simply need to be taken out of catholic church ethos. Its a very simply solution.

Surely you'd prefer to see all teachers paid a better wage then have the department of education stretch its already stretched budget to a load of schools that need to be built and run at tax payer expensive just so Ireland can catch up with other European country by not excluding certain children when it comes to education.

If you think the budget should be stretched needlessly further then I really have to question your logic, especially as we always hear about teachers and their concerns about teachers pay and money in education.

If we do try and build needless schools then you of course know that if the locality has a catholic ethos school that is not full then the government won't entertain any ET school.

Even if the school does accept a none catholic child the catholic ethos school can still make life hell for parents if they opt their child out of religion, the school can (and many do) claim that the parents must look after their own child during religion class time.

A school doing this is a disaster for working parents as religion class and religious activity's take up 10% of primary school time (OECD stats support this by the way)

padohaodha

Cabaal wrote: »

Had a relation who was a priest in the 50s, he left the priesthood at the time and was told by the bishop never to return home.

His family were told to destroy all photos of him by the local priest. (they didn't do this as they didn't believe what he did was wrong).

Due to the way he was ostracized by the church and the local community's (on the instruction of the local priests) he eventually moved to England.

In England he met a women and got married and they raised a family. My mother and her brother went to England in the 70's to find him and eventually encouraged him to visit Ireland again. Personally I'm proud that he did what he did, he was right and what the church did at the time was absolutely disgusting and evil.

Yep, they are nothing like a cult.....
:rolleyes:

is atheism the new cult?just wondering!..insistence that it is the truth,attempted demolition of non believers views,the 'you must be thick if you don't agree with us'....as I say just wondering!

eviltwin

padohaodha wrote: »

is atheism the new cult?just wondering!..insistence that it is the truth,attempted demolition of non believers views,the 'you must be thick if you don't agree with us'....as I say just wondering!

Yeah cause all atheists are like that :rolleyes:

padohaodha

eviltwin wrote: »

Yeah cause all atheists are like that :rolleyes:

fair point..my apologies....but there is an undercurrent there among a lot of Atheists here imo.

Cabaal

padohaodha wrote: »

is atheism the new cult?just wondering!..insistence that it is the truth,attempted demolition of non believers views,the 'you must be thick if you don't agree with us'....as I say just wondering!

I told a factual event that shows just how underhanded and sick the catholic church is and you think atheism is a cult?. Did you event read what happened?

eviltwin

padohaodha wrote: »

fair point..my apologies....but there is an undercurrent there among a lot of Atheists here imo.

I think it's frustration. It's not so much an issue for me cause my eldest has left school and my youngest is in an ET so religion is not really in our world anymore but sometimes you come up against it and it gets on your nerves. Think of something that is important to you and having people tell you to get over yourself or that you should just suck it up, it's no big deal. It feels like you're banging your head against a wall. No one would take that attitude with a vegetarian - ah it's only a bit of meat relax - or a non drinker but when it's a belief system it's ok? Faith is a very important thing to a lot of people, equally lack of faith is too.

jimd2

Cabaal wrote: »

Had a relation who was a priest in the 50s, he left the priesthood at the time and was told by the bishop never to return home.

His family were told to destroy all photos of him by the local priest. (they didn't do this as they didn't believe what he did was wrong).

Due to the way he was ostracized by the church and the local community's (on the instruction of the local priests) he eventually moved to England.

In England he met a women and got married and they raised a family. My mother and her brother went to England in the 70's to find him and eventually encouraged him to visit Ireland again. Personally I'm proud that he did what he did, he was right and what the church did at the time was absolutely disgusting and evil.

Yep, they are nothing like a cult.....
:rolleyes:

can I point you to the piece in bold.

Ireland was a hugely different place then than it is now in very many ways. I am not saying things are ok now but what you are saying would not happen now and would not have happened fr at least the last 15 years.

You used your example to imply a cult in the present and I think that you are mistaken to do so based on an example from the 1950's.

jimd2

harr wrote: »

The book is grow in love,I don't want to single him out by making him sit it out,I don't mind them talking about God and love and stuff like that just the basics .
He is a smart little lad and always asking questions about how clouds are made and how trees grow and hundreds of questions a day and I always explain the best I can for him to understand ,but all this book teaches him is that God makes the clouds,grass,animals,trees and everything else,which to be honest is not my way of thinking....

In my opinion it is a catholic school and you would have had to expect a lot of religion in the class once you enrolled your child.

However, the powers that be in the dept of Education need to be looking closely at the content of these books and not peddle the line of God making everything etc etc. Changing patronage will take years but in the meantime they should be ensuring is being taught to children no matter how young is not as extreme as this.

eviltwin

jimd2 wrote: »

can I point you to the piece in bold.

Ireland was a hugely different place then than it is now in very many ways. I am not saying things are ok now but what you are saying would not happen now and would not have happened fr at least the last 15 years.

You used your example to imply a cult in the present and I think that you are mistaken to do so based on an example from the 1950's.

In the late 90's I had a baby outside wedlock. I came home one day a few months before she was born to find three people from a Catholic group with my mother, over the course of two hours they wouldn't let me leave the house and put huge pressure on me to have my baby adopted. When I refused I was kicked out and my mother hasn't spoken to me since. This with full support of her church. Religion is harmful.

zeffabelli

eviltwin wrote: »

In the late 90's I had a baby outside wedlock. I came home one day a few months before she was born to find three people from a Catholic group with my mother, over the course of two hours they wouldn't let me leave the house and put huge pressure on me to have my baby adopted. When I refused I was kicked out and my mother hasn't spoken to me since. This with full support of her church. Religion is harmful.

The late 90s. That is shameful. Oh wow sorry you went through that.

padohaodha

I understand that people get frustrated but the way to convince people is not to.mock their beliefs.I find myself agreeing with a lot of what the atheists here are saying and then bang..some smug git destroys it all by mocking belief in fairy elves and the like....I'm very much part of the silent majority who respect your right to have views but if you consistently denigrate others opinions ill just say to hell with them and walk away......imo there are far far larger problems growing up in Ireland today than religious education.

eviltwin

padohaodha wrote: »

I understand that people get frustrated but the way to convince people is not to.mock their beliefs.I find myself agreeing with a lot of what the atheists here are saying and then bang..some smug git destroys it all by mocking belief in fairy elves and the like....I'm very much part of the silent majority who respect your right to have views but if you consistently denigrate others opinions ill just say to hell with them and walk away......imo there are far far larger problems growing up in Ireland today than religious education.

I personally think the notion of God is rubbish. That's an opinion, it's not ridicule. I can understand why people raised in a religion don't question it. I only did because religion was harmful to me. I had a terrible experience with the church, if it hadn't happened....who knows, maybe I'd still be there.

I think most of the ridicule is aimed at the casual Catholic. Doesn't believe in God but will get married in a church, that kind of thing.

Cabaal

jimd2 wrote: »

can I point you to the piece in bold.

Ireland was a hugely different place then than it is now in very many ways. I am not saying things are ok now but what you are saying would not happen now and would not have happened fr at least the last 15 years.

You used your example to imply a cult in the present and I think that you are mistaken to do so based on an example from the 1950's.

Want a more recent example of how none forward thinking the church is?, fine. Local parish priest refused to baptise a child because the mother was a single mother and wasn't married.

She had to go to a different parish to get the kid baptised.

The church isn't as accepting as forward thinking as some people seem to believe.
Like any organization, I'm sure there are many good people in it and yes perhaps the local parish priest is just a bad apple but the church should be stamping down on these sort of people. Instead the church isn't and they'd rather silence priests who think priests should be allowed to marry.

In addition, when the organization as a whole sounds off that gay people are unnatural and that they shouldn't be allowed marriage we know this viewpoint is not supported by 62% of the voting Irish population. They are out of step with the people of Ireland sadly, I really wish this wasn't the case believe me

harr

Op here ,guys I really did not want this to be a debate on who is right or wrong when it comes to religion everyone is entitled to there own beliefs and have I got the answers I was looking for...and thanks to everyone who replied to my post specially the teachers who have put my mind somewhat at ease.
I think maybe a MOD should now close this thread.

eviltwin

Cabaal wrote: »

Want a more recent example of how none forward thinking the church is?, fine. Local parish priest refused to baptise a child because the mother was a single mother and wasn't married.

She had to go to a different parish to get the kid baptised.

The church isn't as accepting as forward thinking as some people seem to believe.

How about the woman who stood on a pulpit at Sunday mass and said her special needs child was a punishment from God for having an abortion. That was only a year or so ago. Sunday mass with children listening. And people say religion isn't harmful.

padohaodha

eviltwin wrote: »

In the late 90's I had a baby outside wedlock. I came home one day a few months before she was born to find three people from a Catholic group with my mother, over the course of two hours they wouldn't let me leave the house and put huge pressure on me to have my baby adopted. When I refused I was kicked out and my mother hasn't spoken to me since. This with full support of her church. Religion is harmful.

that's disgraceful...and id back u all the way..but that's your mothers fault not the whole catholic church.

eviltwin

padohaodha wrote: »

that's disgraceful...and id back u all the way..but that's your mothers fault not the whole catholic church.

I'm not blaming the whole Catholic church. I'm pointing out how religion can be harmful and why people may have very personal reasons for wanting to keep it away from their children. And then you wonder why people get so angry on threads like this ?

Neyite

padohaodha wrote: »

fair point..my apologies....but there is an undercurrent there among a lot of Atheists here imo.

Some might be, others like me have no problem with religion if you keep it to yourselves and don't try to influence me or my child with it. In fact, I think its healthy to teach children that there are different religions, different ethos, and that people believe different things. I think its healthy to show them the varied cultural things that evolved from religion, and it's healthy to show them that while we may not believe in Catholicism, (or any other religion) we should respect those that do - regardless of our own personal views of a religion.

But then someone comes along and says to us that our beliefs should be disregarded, ignored in favour of a religion. That my son should be told under the guise of education that Jesus was the son of God and that Mary had an immaculate conception and that transubstantiation is real. And if I have a problem with him being fed these...what I feel is untruths as facts, that aren't I lucky that he gets that free education that he is legally entitled to like every other child in the state.

People here are splitting hairs saying its no harm a 5 year old learns a little cute prayer. The trouble is that 5 year old learns more and more each year and soon become a 12 year old or 17 year old who has had a single religion weaved into his entire educational life on a daily basis.

Can I ask a favour of all those in favour of Catholic schools? Pick another religion - one that you are a bit wary or uncomfortable with your child being exposed to.

Now, imagine that all the current Catholic schools are that religion. Where its a gamble as to whether their teacher is leaning to secular or a zealot. Then imagine sending your child there for 8 years to get an education where that religion touches on nearly every subject. Where they learn prayers and songs of that religion. Where in certain years, all their friends are partaking in a religious event that all their friends are doing. And as they get older, the doctrine they learn becomes a bit more than songs. That the sex education they get is modified by that religion to give one example.

The answer really isn't to tell you to shut up, shure what are you moaning for, its free. And if you really don't like it, build your own damn school.

I'm not going to apologise for the disquiet and dismay I feel that my son has no workable options for a secular education. I don't deserve to be bashed by Catholics because I respectfully disagree with teachings that they believe, I don't do it to them. I'd never force a Catholic to do something against their beliefs, but I'm expected to do stuff contrary to my beliefs. I've learned one thing living in Ireland though. We are awash with Catholics, but I've met very few Christians.

Cabaal

harr wrote: »

Op here ,guys I really did not want this to be a debate on who is right or wrong when it comes to religion everyone is entitled to there own beliefs.

In case anyone thinks otherwise, I actually agree with this.
I'm all for everyone having the freedom of their faith or non faith regardless of if its catholic, Islamic or whatever.

The problem is when this faith is used to exclude others using the tax payers money. This should never ever happen because everyone regardless of their faith or none faith pays that tax so the money shoudn't be used to promote one faith over another.

afkasurfjunkie

jimd2 wrote: »

In my opinion it is a catholic school and you would have had to expect a lot of religion in the class once you enrolled your child.

However, the powers that be in the dept of Education need to be looking closely at the content of these books and not peddle the line of God making everything etc etc. Changing patronage will take years but in the meantime they should be ensuring is being taught to children no matter how young is not as extreme as this.

I don't think the dept have anything to do with the religion curriculum though. If you look at whole school reports you will see that religion is not examined. That's why a seperate diocesan advisor comes to the school during the year. In fact as far as I'm aware we are not paid for teaching religion. 30 minutes were taken out of the hour long lunch break and that is why religion is usually taught before lunchtime.
In my experience very few schools spend the full 2.5 hours a week teaching religion although they might try to make up for lost time in the weeks before communion and confirmation which is a right pain.
Had a quick look at the new religion book on the veritas website. It does seem 'God heavy' as someone put it but anything would be an improvement on the waffle and rubbish that was the alive o programme. The first lesson is on 'home' and the teacher would probably tie it in with an entire theme on homes. And throw the cursory 'and the church is gods home' in there somewhere and that's it.

Kids aren't stupid either. For every crackpot sentence you come across where it says God made the world in seven days or whatever, there willbe a pupil who will put up their hand and say 'what about the Big Bang teacher?' Or 'why don't they mention dinosaurs in the bible?' And then we will have a discussion about that. I had a great lesson with 4th class on it. It came up in conversation and I just went with it. The bible is a very old book, people came up with stories to explain things they didn't understand. It's ok to use religion and prayer to help you in times that you need it and some people have other beliefs and that's ok too.

The religious zealots in teaching are few and far between. The problem is everyone remembers the one oddball teacher but doesn't mention the other 20 in the school that were fantastic and so people think all teachers are religious nut jobs.
I personally can't wait for religion to be taken out of schools but I can't see it happening for a while. I'd consider myself agnostic or an a-la-carte catholic as someone once called me but by gosh, I didn't write THAT on my cv.
I'm lucky in that my school, while being Catholic in ethos has a very open minded parish priest and a school that welcomes children of all faiths. No one minds if somebody opts out of religion class. Children have been known to attend the ceremonies if they wish and get their photo taken with their class.

I'm sure that happens in plenty of other schools around the country too but you don't hear about it, because the one school that makes things difficult for their students due to a power hungry principal or priest is the one you hear about, or read about on boards or the journal or facebook.

pwurple

eviltwin wrote: »

I think most of the ridicule is aimed at the casual Catholic. Doesn't believe in God but will get married in a church, that kind of thing.

That's completely misguided ridicule though... Moderates are surely much much less harmful than the bible beaters. To be encouraged if anything.

What should happen, is to calm the fanatics into moderates. Not make the middle ground someplace where you get ridiculed. It should be seen as a stepping stone to secularism if anything.

You're never going to get a die-hard bible-basher to go full atheist in one generation. But you might water down the next one.

Making the middle ground uncomfortable only polarises people.

eviltwin

pwurple wrote: »

That's completely misguided ridicule though... Moderates are surely much much less harmful than the bible beaters. To be encouraged if anything.

What should happen, is to calm the fanatics into moderates. Not make the middle ground someplace where you get ridiculed. It should be seen as a stepping stone to secularism if anything.

You're never going to get a die-hard bible-basher to go full atheist in one generation. But you might water down the next one.

Making the middle ground uncomfortable only polarises people.

I actually have more respect for the people who believe it. I don't respect attempts to force their will on the people but I respect their beliefs, I know a lot of very religious people who go to mass on a Sunday and take the sacraments seriously. I can't respect the people who only go through the motions to have a party or because it's expected of them. Btw I don't want to make anyone go atheist, I have no issue with anyone following a religion.

zeffabelli

eviltwin wrote: »

I actually have more respect for the people who believe it. I don't respect attempts to force their will on the people but I respect their beliefs, I know a lot of very religious people who go to mass on a Sunday and take the sacraments seriously. I can't respect the people who only go through the motions to have a party or because it's expected of them.

I respect the hippocrites more than the fundamentalists.

Cabaal

zeffabelli wrote: »

I respect the hippocrites more than the fundamentalists.

Why though?
By calling themselves catholic on the census, doing the baptise thing for schools etc it actually means the catholic church can claim people WANT the current setup as clearly there is demand (in their eye's). If say 50% of kids entering schools weren't baptised then there is pressure for things to change.

Its like voting for a political party but in reality you actually hate what they stand for or their policy's and secretly you don't actually want them to have power anymore. If you don't like something then its better to not associate with it and this can cause change when more and more people do this. (like not voting for a party they don't actually like)

purplecow1977

The problem lies in that many schools will give preference to Catholic students and request baptismal certs on enrolment.

Someone mentioned religion makes us 10% of the school day, I'd disagree 100% with that

Someone else mentioned sex education. We had a pair of women in to give such a talk to my students this year and I was impressed. The point they stressed was to wait for sex until they are in a loving and respectful relationship like marriage. I think this is pretty sensible. They didn't mention religion thankfully.

Religion in most primary schools does not permeate every subject.

Children remember what they learned in Maths. Pe. History. They usually remember very little religion unless they attend other lessons Like Sunday school or are influenced by their parents. From my experience in the last 10 years.

I understand peoples wariness resulting from their own experiences and those who are so vocally opposed to religion in schools have shared horrible experiences so it is no wonder they feel like this. If I had a family member treated in a similar fashion I'd be likely to feel similar. I don't hold this against the Church. Ireland has changed a lot since then. Schools have changed a lot since then. We don't slap kids anymore!!

If there was a huge campaign to remove religion from schools you'd have many teachers support. Would people care enough to actually oppose it? Possibly not. I imagine it's only a few that so vehemently oppose this.

purplecow1977

eviltwin wrote:

How about the woman who stood on a pulpit at Sunday mass and said her special needs child was a punishment from God for having an abortion. That was only a year or so ago. Sunday mass with children listening. And people say religion isn't harmful.

That is awful. Extremists exist in all religions. What a disgusting thing to say. That's obviously what she believes! :-(

realdanbreen

eviltwin wrote: »

In the late 90's I had a baby outside wedlock. I came home one day a few months before she was born to find three people from a Catholic group with my mother, over the course of two hours they wouldn't let me leave the house and put huge pressure on me to have my baby adopted. When I refused I was kicked out and my mother hasn't spoken to me since. This with full support of her church. Religion is harmful.

How does that show it was 'with full support of her church'
The fault lies squarely with your mother and the other 3 who obviously had a warped view of life. As for ' over the course of two hours they wouldn't let me leave the house', unless they were carrying guns I would have driven Mother + her 3 buddies clean out through the nearest window,door, or whatever opening in the house.

realdanbreen

eviltwin wrote: »

How about the woman who stood on a pulpit at Sunday mass and said her special needs child was a punishment from God for having an abortion. That was only a year or so ago. Sunday mass with children listening. And people say religion isn't harmful.

Did you witness this incident? If so I'll take your word for it but do you think the catholic church has a monopoly on basket cases like this woman clearly is?