Religion in junior infants

Not a NSA agent

purplecow1977 wrote: »

So others spend 1hour plus per day in religion? Yeah. Sure!!!

So far we have your personal experience vs a report.

Feel free to point out where the report went wrong but it claims its 10% of time based on an average across the country, not just one person.

Neyite

lazygal wrote: »

I wonder why the school needed to outsource sex education as well. To whom did it outsource this important subject? How would follow up questions or issues be dealt with if sex ed is outsourced?

I'd be very interested in who it was outsourced to as well.

What Purple has described is pretty similar to the sex ed given to us in the '90s in a same sex school where the emphasis was on sex within a loving marriage. Gave us absolutely no tools or information whatsoever that related to our actual lives as teens. We had to rely on misinformation and rumour regarding contraception because asking about it in the class was like getting blood from a stone. They reluctantly admitted that condoms and pills existed but that they were not going to discuss them. It was only the year that I did my LC that condoms went on display in pub vending machines and certain liberal chemists. We believed you had to be at least engaged to have a GP entertain your request for the pill. Positive options didnt exist. The back pages of magazines such as Just 17 and Cosmo were censored if the family planning clinic advert was for a clinic that also offered morning after pill, the coil (abortificant) or abortion information.

Then the nuns wondered why there was a pregnancy epidemic in the senior classes. :rolleyes:

Emphasising that sex preferably should take place in a loving, marriage-like relationship is loosely based on a religious concept. As is glossing over all the important stuff that kids need, like contraception advice, sti advice, pregnancy options.

lazygal

Focusing on one gender only is dangerous. This reinforces ignorance of the other gender. For example, only telling girls about menstruation means it's a big weird mystery if you don't tell the boys about it. Telling boys only things relevant to them like the correct terms for their genitals leads to weirdness where adults don't use the correct terms for their own body parts. Just another way the single sex school model is really flawed.

SpaceTime

What we got in transition year was a course from an elderly teacher about how to have a good marriage!

He spent the entire time talking about how his wife and himself keep open communication and do the dishes together !!

It would have been appropriate for 60 year olds who were having difficult with deciding on the colour to paint the fence.

We'd two days of "sex ed" which consisted of a woman talking about the rhythm method and doing diagrams of menstral cycles and talking a lot about how painful her child birth was.

One of the lads said he was gay and he wanted to know about certain practicalities and was thrown out for being a "messer" as she assumed he was being a clown as the class burst out laughing.

He wasn't messing. Turned out he'd used the opportunity to attempt coming out and then was nearly suicidal because of the reaction!

Luckily the lads were actually very supportive outside of that context.

Alf Veedersane

lazygal wrote: »

But it's completely unnatural to only.focus on sex in terms of one gender. Loads of important things would be missed.

Again, I would assume that it was meant that it wasn't framed in the context of one gender with the role of another gender completely excluded but that it was framed in the context of the gender of the entirety of the student population of that school.

That doesn't mean that the role of the man, if it was an all-girls school, was excluded. Just that it was discussed from a female point of view.

lazygal

My sex education was actually pretty good. We did the Stay Safe programme and our sex education was done in a very factual way by our teacher in primary school. Secondary school was also ok, given the times and the school being Catholic. That's why I find it so weird that a primary school teacher posts of outsourcing sex education and that she can't answer certain questions. Sounds like an inferior system to what I went through over 20 years ago.

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote:

Focusing on one gender only is dangerous. This reinforces ignorance of the other gender. For example, only telling girls about menstruation means it's a big weird mystery if you don't tell the boys about it. Telling boys only things relevant to them like the correct terms for their genitals leads to weirdness where adults don't use the correct terms for their own body parts. Just another way the single sex school model is really flawed.

See above. They were told about opposite sex also just not details like the mirena coil!

Senior infants are told correct body part names as part of SPHE curriculum

Single sex schools flawed now too- anything you ARE happy with in the Irish school system?!

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote:

Focusing on one gender only is dangerous. This reinforces ignorance of the other gender. For example, only telling girls about menstruation means it's a big weird mystery if you don't tell the boys about it. Telling boys only things relevant to them like the correct terms for their genitals leads to weirdness where adults don't use the correct terms for their own body parts. Just another way the single sex school model is really flawed.

See above. They were told about opposite sex also just not details like the mirena coil!

Senior infants are told correct body part names as part of SPHE curriculum

Single sex schools flawed now too- anything you ARE happy with in the Irish school system?!

um7y1h83ge06nx

I think this whole thing will become an issue for me and my other half in the next few years if we have kids.

We're having a humanist wedding next year, she was never baptised and I feel that the Catholic church and I have moved apart, with different moral, political and social beliefs.

We were discussing religion and kids though. She would prefer not to get any future kids baptised while I would, purely for educational reasons. Terrible reason to decide to get a kid baptised but I would not want any of my children to have difficulties getting the best education they can because of religious discrimination.

As I put it to the other half, didn't Michael Collins join the British civil service before coming to political prominence!

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

See above. They were told about opposite sex also just not details like the mirena coil!

Senior infants are told correct body part names as part of SPHE curriculum

Single sex schools flawed now too- anything you ARE happy with in the Irish school system?!

Going on several things posted here, not much tbh. Teachers indoctrinating without calling it that, outsourcing sex education and teachers saying they can't answer some pupils' questions doesn't inspire much confidence. At least I know this school isn't near me. There's no way I'd enrol my children in a single sex school. Its really unnatural to segregate children like that!

ash23

My daughters school outsourced their sex ed this year for the girls (it's an all girls school) - it wasn't a religious group and I was a bit amazed and impressed by the level of detail and the range of topics covered. It was very very good. There were videos (cartoons) showing the act of sex and what goes where and that there are methods of preventing pregnancy which should be discussed with parents and GP when the girls think about becoming sexually active.

Puberty for boys and girls was discussed and marriage was never mentioned.
The girls were encouraged only to wait until they were ready and to make sure they were comfortable and felt respected. Social issues were touched on (sexting, sending pictures etc) with a strong emphasis on it being what the girls themselves wanted but also being very aware that once they send it, they have no ownership of it and no control over who sees it and that it will never ever go away.

Then the kids were given a card to write any questions, the parents were brought into a room and read the questions and discussed the best way to answer them and then the guy went into the kids and answered their questions.

It was really really informative.

For a Catholic school I was chuffed that they went the informative sex ed route instead of the Catholic route and I voiced that to the principal at the time.

Alf Veedersane

lazygal wrote: »

Focusing on one gender only is dangerous. This reinforces ignorance of the other gender. For example, only telling girls about menstruation means it's a big weird mystery if you don't tell the boys about it. Telling boys only things relevant to them like the correct terms for their genitals leads to weirdness where adults don't use the correct terms for their own body parts. Just another way the single sex school model is really flawed.

We knew alll about mentrusation from Junior Cert Science anyway.

I went to an all-boys school (though one year a girl did come to our school to do Leaving Cert Physics because it wasn't taught in her all girls school).

I managed to leave without being some sort of sexually repressed oddity that had no idea what went on with a woman's body or what to to call their 'cha-cha'. Lots of my peers did too.

zeffabelli

lazygal wrote: »

Going on several things posted here, not much tbh. Teachers indoctrinating without calling it that, outsourcing sex education and teachers saying they can't answer some pupils' questions doesn't inspire much confidence. At least I know this school isn't near me. There's no way I'd enrol my children in a single sex school. Its really unnatural to segregate children like that!

Yeah I see your point but these days they are thinking all boys schools are better for boys because in mixed schools unfair standards are placed on the boys, to be like girls....sit still... be compliant...etc....

zeffabelli

SpaceTime wrote: »

What we got in transition year was a course from an elderly teacher about how to have a good marriage!

He spent the entire time talking about how his wife and himself keep open communication and do the dishes together !!

It would have been appropriate for 60 year olds who were having difficult with deciding on the colour to paint the fence.

We'd two days of "sex ed" which consisted of a woman talking about the rhythm method and doing diagrams of menstral cycles and talking a lot about how painful her child birth was.

One of the lads said he was gay and he wanted to know about certain practicalities and was thrown out for being a "messer" as she assumed he was being a clown as the class burst out laughing.

He wasn't messing. Turned out he'd used the opportunity to attempt coming out and then was nearly suicidal because of the reaction!

Luckily the lads were actually very supportive outside of that context.

I'm not joking here on the OTHER SIDE...... I went to a secular mixed school in another country and we had sex e since 9 years old and when we were about 12, they brought in a sex educator who demonstrated with a condom and banana how to put a condom on someone else with your mouth.

She didnt make us practise on bananas, but we bought cherries later that day and practised tying the stems in knots in our mouths, I demonstrated my new skill at the dinner table that night at home, stuck my tongue out and delivered the knot like Cinderella' s shoe on a silver tray.

I think that's when private school was a a determination.

SpaceTime

purplecow1977 wrote: »

See above. They were told about opposite sex also just not details like the mirena coil!

Senior infants are told correct body part names as part of SPHE curriculum

Single sex schools flawed now too- anything you ARE happy with in the Irish school system?!

In my case, no I think most aspects of the Irish education system are a total anachronism.

Over religious, single gender schools, poor levels of external oversight of standards, extremely poor facilities (mostly because of lack of scale due to splitting up resources based on sponsors and gender of students).

Things like lack of decent sports facilities, lack of science facilities, drama facilities, libraries and psychological supports are really unbelievable for a 21st century, quite wealthy, Western European country.

From what I can see the school system, the policy makers and the general public are obsessed with religion, uniforms and snobbery and not about the quality of the service being delivered.

I like a lot of things about Ireland but this is one of the areas that I just find baffling.

I don't see it changing either as there are powerful vested interests, cultural barriers and a complete lack of any other perspective.

Irish people mostly think education is a function of the church and find the concept of state education "weird".

The universities here are generally the polar opposite and very secular in most cases.

I just find it amazing that on the one hand you can have a totally secular university like UCC, doing an outstanding job and on the other that model cannot be applied in primary or secondary education.

lazygal

zeffabelli wrote: »

Yeah I see your point but these days they are thinking all boys schools are better for boys because in mixed schools unfair standards are placed on the boys, to be like girls....sit still... be compliant...etc....

Those are life skills. Sitting still and being compliant are requirements for many social situations not just school.

purplecow1977

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

We knew alll about mentrusation from Junior Cert Science anyway.

I went to an all-boys school (though one year a girl did come to our school to do Leaving Cert Physics because it wasn't taught in her all girls school).

I managed to leave without being some sort of sexually repressed oddity that had no idea what went on with a woman's body or what to to call their 'cha-cha'. Lots of my peers did too.

I never attended single-sex schools but many of my friends did and they didn't turn out weird, or have an aversion to men etc. They're pretty well-rounded actually.

From reading some posts here, some people just like giving out & aren't happy unless finding fault with something! I thank my lucky stars that in 10 years of teaching I've only encountered maybe 2 of these such parents so they're not bad statistics! If I only encounter 2 in the next 10 years it won't be so bad!

Cabaal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Nobody spends 30 minutes per day on religion. I spend almost hour and half on maths per day. I spend 30 minutes per Week on religion, if at all.

Oh,
So your view that religion doesn't take up 10% of school time is based on your personal viewpoint...because obviously there is no way that you can actually backup your claim that nobody spends 30min a day on religion..

Thats fine, your entitled to this viewpoint that is based on your personal thoughts on the matter..it doesn't mean much though. Its such a narrow amount of data to work off of.

I'll take the OECD who base their stats on actual hard facts and figures taken from schools and government departments. I know which most people will see as more trustworthy as well

frostyjacks

lazygal wrote: »

Going on several things posted here, not much tbh. Teachers indoctrinating without calling it that, outsourcing sex education and teachers saying they can't answer some pupils' questions doesn't inspire much confidence. At least I know this school isn't near me. There's no way I'd enrol my children in a single sex school. Its really unnatural to segregate children like that!

Single sex schools are perfectly 'natural', for want of a better word. Boys and girls are different, and it's best to educate them separately. It's not like they're segregated based on their skin colour.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I never attended single-sex schools but many of my friends did and they didn't turn out weird, or have an aversion to men etc. They're pretty well-rounded actually.

From reading some posts here, some people just like giving out & aren't happy unless finding fault with something! I thank my lucky stars that in 10 years of teaching I've only encountered maybe 2 of these such parents so they're not bad statistics! If I only encounter 2 in the next 10 years it won't be so bad!

What kind of parents are you talking about? Those who question indoctrination? Or those who find fault with other aspects of the education system?

I don't know about teachers but I receive fairly regular feedback on my work processes and outcomes. Is a parent asking about such things one of the parents you so rarely encounter?

lazygal

frostyjacks wrote: »

Single sex schools are perfectly 'natural', for want of a better word. Boys and girls are different, and it's best to educate them separately. It's not like they're segregated based on their skin colour.

Why is it best to educate them separately? Any stats?

Neyite

ash23 wrote: »

My daughters school outsourced their sex ed this year for the girls (it's an all girls school) - it wasn't a religious group and I was a bit amazed and impressed by the level of detail and the range of topics covered. It was very very good. There were videos (cartoons) showing the act of sex and what goes where and that there are methods of preventing pregnancy which should be discussed with parents and GP when the girls think about becoming sexually active.

Puberty for boys and girls was discussed and marriage was never mentioned.
The girls were encouraged only to wait until they were ready and to make sure they were comfortable and felt respected. Social issues were touched on (sexting, sending pictures etc) with a string emphasis on it being what the girls themselves wanted but also being very aware that once they send it, they have no ownership of it and no control over who sees it and that it will never ever go away.

Then the kids were given a card to write any questions, the parents were brought into a room and read the questions and discussed the best way to answer them and then the guy went into the kids and answered their questions.

It was really really informative.

For a Catholic school I was chuffed that they went the informative sex ed route instead of the Catholic route and I voiced that to the principal at the time.

That sounds ideal. A good mix of information, morals awareness, relevant social roadblocks teens might hit, without any personal slant from the course lecturer. Was there anything about STI safety and general sexual health (eg regular smear testing etc) in that?

Back in the 90's there was nothing regarding smears, thankfully with Cervical check awareness of those things have improved a bit. I was the first of my flatmates to get a smear at 24. One absolutely baulked at the idea, yet was very active with casual sexual encounters, many unprotected. Any sti talk was mostly about Aids, as you can imagine post-80's, and was dismissed as not really applying to us good girls as it was only gay men that got that and if you married a good lad, you'd never have to worry about it. :P

SpaceTime

The thing is they don't all turn out normal.

Most of the guys I know are very balanced one or two of them had no idea how to relate to women and mostly has the edges knocked off them in university or work.

You'll also get the other extreme : excessively shy around the opposite sex.

I just think gender segregating people is stupid in any context. The world has both genders and it's very important to with with both from day one.

tehbaggins

What this thread teaches me is that the Irish education system and people's attitude towards it are still stuck way in the past. It also frightens the living daylights out of me.

I'm Norwegian and my fiancée is Irish. We have discussed this and how we would like to bring up our future children a lot over the past few weeks and we have come to the conclusion that unless we have no choice but to stay in Ireland during the school years, we will move elsewhere. Norway or another Scandinavian country looking like the more likely.

We are both atheist and scientifically literate, requiring empirical and solid evidence to present anything as fact, especially to children. Reading through some of what's coming through this thread, I will find it very hard, if not impossible to subject a child of mine to this kind of teaching. Hearing my fiancée talk about her own path through a Catholic school here also completely underlines how dangerous the system here can be to a young and impressionable mind.

I will not have a child of mine told that they're sinners.
I will not have a child of mine told that they're not perfect.
I will not have a child of mine told that his/her parents don't love them as much as God do.
I will not have a child of mine face being ostracised by teachers and classmates for not attending mass or not believing in God.
I will not have a child of mine taught prayer in place of poetry.
I will not have a child of mine forced into any religious observation.
I will not have a child of mine being taught that they will go to hell for any reason by an authority figure.
I will not have a child of mine baptised against both my and my fiancées wish in order to secure a place in school.
I will not have a child of mine in a single-gendered school, as the child may then find it difficult to socialize with opposite gender children.
I will not have a child of mine not receive a comprehensive sexual education covering both genders and all sexualities.

Quite frankly, the education system in Ireland on a primary and secondary school level is completely outdated, it should not rely on 2000 year or older fables and power should certainly not rest with the Roman Catholic Church. At best it's frightening to see what children are exposed to in schools and at worst it is downright dangerous.

zeffabelli

tehbaggins wrote: »

What this thread teaches me is that the Irish education system and people's attitude towards it are still stuck way in the past. It also frightens the living daylights out of me.

I'm Norwegian and my fiancée is Irish. We have discussed this and how we would like to bring up our future children a lot over the past few weeks and we have come to the conclusion that unless we have no choice but to stay in Ireland during the school years, we will move elsewhere. Norway or another Scandinavian country looking like the more likely.

We are both atheist and scientifically literate, requiring empirical and solid evidence to present anything as fact, especially to children. Reading through some of what's coming through this thread, I will find it very hard, if not impossible to subject a child of mine to this kind of teaching. Hearing my fiancée talk about her own path through a Catholic school here also completely underlines how dangerous the system here can be to a young and impressionable mind.

I will not have a child of mine told that they're sinners.
I will not have a child of mine told that they're not perfect.
I will not have a child of mine told that his/her parents don't love them as much as God do.
I will not have a child of mine face being ostracised by teachers and classmates for not attending mass or not believing in God.
I will not have a child of mine taught prayer in place of poetry.
I will not have a child of mine forced into any religious observation.
I will not have a child of mine being taught that they will go to hell for any reason by an authority figure.
I will not have a child of mine baptised against both my and my fiancées wish in order to secure a place in school.
I will not have a child of mine in a single-gendered school, as the child may then find it difficult to socialize with opposite gender children.
I will not have a child of mine not receive a comprehensive sexual education covering both genders and all sexualities.

Quite frankly, the education system in Ireland on a primary and secondary school level is completely outdated, it should not rely on 2000 year or older fables and power should certainly not rest with the Roman Catholic Church. At best it's frightening to see what children are exposed to in schools and at worst it is downright dangerous.

If this is teh case you will have to emmigrate or go private.

Alf Veedersane

lazygal wrote: »

Its really unnatural to segregate children like that!

It's not really. There is research that shows boys and girls learn in different ways. They also mature at different rates.

By the same token there are the arguments that schools should be co-ed because life is.

But there are pros and cons for both so I don't think one is unnatural.

I did many activities as a kid. Some kept boys and girls apart (GAA) and some we were all together (gymnastics).

I'm Alf...and I'm normal.

Not a NSA agent

frostyjacks wrote: »

Single sex schools are perfectly 'natural', for want of a better word. Boys and girls are different, and it's best to educate them separately. It's not like they're segregated based on their skin colour.

What would be wrong with separating them based on their skin color? White schools performed better to the black schools in the US but the PC brigade came along and ruined it. Non white people would be free to open up there own schools here.

lazygal

zeffabelli wrote: »

If this is teh case you will have to emmigrate or go private.

Most "private" or rather fee paying schools are also religious. There's only one I know of within reasonable distance from me that isn't multi or single denominational.

ash23

Neyite wrote: »

That sounds ideal. A good mix of information, morals awareness, relevant social roadblocks teens might hit, without any personal slant from the course lecturer. Was there anything about STI safety and general sexual health (eg regular smear testing etc) in that?

No to be honest because they kind of skirted over the contraception thing other than a mention but I think that's because it was a group of 12 year olds as opposed to it being a Catholic school. Maybe there's a bit of both at play.

I've had lengthy chats with my daughter and she knew (and I explained) when I was having my coil done and my smear test. I figure everything can't be covered in school so we'd chat very openly at home. I was asked after the talk how gay men have sex when neither of them have a vagina. No shyness about sex in our house

Cabaal

frostyjacks wrote: »

Single sex schools are perfectly 'natural', for want of a better word. Boys and girls are different, and it's best to educate them separately. It's not like they're segregated based on their skin colour.

Yep, natural :pac:.
Just like when they leave school they go to single sex colleges and single sex workplaces.

But wait, society is no longer segregated in this manner. It was certainly more segregated back in say the 1930's but now women can do all sorts of things...like work after they get married and all sorts of crazy stuff.