Religion in junior infants

tehbaggins

zeffabelli wrote: »

If this is teh case you will have to emmigrate or go private.

That seems to be the way things are heading.

lazygal

Cabaal wrote: »

Yep, natural :pac:.
Just like when they leave school they go to single sex colleges and single sex workplaces.

But wait, society is no longer segregated in this manner. It was certainly more segregated back in say the 1930's but now women can do all sorts of things...like work after they get married and all sorts of crazy stuff.

I hear women can even work and neglect their duties in the home.

tehbaggins

lazygal wrote: »

I hear women can even work and neglect their duties in the home.

Crazy, isn't it? What's next, giving them the vote and allowing them to own property and drive vehicles?

SpaceTime

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

We knew alll about mentrusation from Junior Cert Science anyway.

I went to an all-boys school (though one year a girl did come to our school to do Leaving Cert Physics because it wasn't taught in her all girls school).

I managed to leave without being some sort of sexually repressed oddity that had no idea what went on with a woman's body or what to to call their 'cha-cha'. Lots of my peers did too.

Do you not think its a bit odd in a 21st century western country that a girl had to go to a different school to study physics ?!?!?!?!?

This is the kind of thing that worries me about Ireland - this is happening and more scarily that people think it's acceptable !

lazygal

tehbaggins wrote: »

Crazy, isn't it? What's next, giving them the vote and allowing them to own property and drive vehicles?

Next thing they might even be looking for mad stuff like bodily autonomy.

tehbaggins

lazygal wrote: »

Next thing they might even be looking for mad stuff like bodily autonomy.

Pipe down with the mad ideas there. The world just isn't ready for such a radical idea yet!

zeffabelli

SpaceTime wrote: »

Do you not think its a bit odd in a 21st century western country that a girl had to go to a different school to study physics ?!?!?!?!?

This is the kind of thing that worries me about Ireland - this is happening and more scarily that people think it's acceptable !

This is because science is expensive. Why would you invest in the education of women when they' hae to give up their jobs anyway.

:rolleyes:

Alf Veedersane

SpaceTime wrote: »

Do you not think its a bit odd in a 21st century western country that a girl had to go to a different school to study physics ?!?!?!?!?

This is the kind of thing that worries me about Ireland - this is happening and more scarily that people think it's acceptable !

There wasn't enough interest in her own school for there to be a physics class so she did physics through our school.

If she had wanted to do woodwork in her school, or Building Construction, she wouldn't have been able to either.

I don't think there were the resources there to include physics on the school timetable for one student. Not sure why that's so disconcerting.

SpaceTime

zeffabelli wrote: »

This is because science is expensive. Why would you invest in the education of women when they' hae to give up their jobs anyway.

:rolleyes:

The secondary school system is slowly catching up with the early 1960s by the sounds of it.

frostyjacks

lazygal wrote: »

Why is it best to educate them separately? Any stats?

There's loads of studies on it. If it was unnatural it wouldn't be used the world over since time began.

purplecow1977

ash23 wrote: »

No to be honest because they kind of skirted over the contraception thing other than a mention but I think that's because it was a group of 12 year olds as opposed to it being a Catholic school. Maybe there's a bit of both at play.

I've had lengthy chats with my daughter and she knew (and I explained) when I was having my coil done and my smear test. I figure everything can't be covered in school so we'd chat very openly at home. I was asked after the talk how gay men have sex when neither of them have a vagina. No shyness about sex in our house

Some things parents should take responsibility for and have a discussion about sexual topics with their children. Teachers can only do so much and I am glad you have an open relationship with your child so that she can ask you such questions, and you can answer such questions.

Many parents would object strongly if the teacher was having such a discussion with their children, which is presumably why a lot of these things are not discussed. Not because of Catholic influence, but because it's not necessarily appropriate to discuss at school.

Many 12 year old children aren't as mature as their counterparts, and some parents would prefer to wait until their child has reached a certain maturity to have certain discussions with them.

They are just children. I suppose some parents fear if they give them the necessary information about contraception etc, this almost encourages such a behaviour.

I'm quite open-minded but I would not discuss certain topics of a sexual nature with the children I teach in 6th class. Some of whom are still 11 years old. Because parents are primary educators and can approach it more appropriately individually.

Alf Veedersane

zeffabelli wrote: »

This is because science is expensive. Why would you invest in the education of women when they' hae to give up their jobs anyway.

:rolleyes:

I'm not sure if you're being serious but just to clarify...in previous years the school did have physics classes. That year there weren't enough students interested to justify having a class so the one interested studennt came to our school and her timetable was adjusted to facilitate that and so that it didn't clash with another subject she was doing.

purplecow1977

frostyjacks wrote: »

There's loads of studies on it. If it was unnatural it wouldn't be used the world over since time began.

You can't say 'there's loads of studies' and not reference one.

I think girls perform better on their own.
Boys could do with the balance of girls!

tehbaggins

frostyjacks wrote: »

There's loads of studies on it. If it was unnatural it wouldn't be used the world over since time began.

Can I get a citation on that please? What studies? Done where? And have they been peer reviewed?

Cabaal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Some things parents should take responsibility for and have a discussion about.

I agree, some things parents should very much take responsibility for when it comes to children.

Religion is one of those things, its a very personal thing and as we've seen not everyone appreciates how a teacher might push parts of a religious faith onto their child (or how they may give out to a child for not believing certain stuff).

Many people that call themselves catholic in Ireland think the church's teachings on many topics are complete and utter nonsense and have no place in modern Ireland. (no sex before marriage, divorce being wrong, gay people being unnatural to name just a few).

Best leave it to parents to tell their kids how nice and caring god is and what people (gay people for example) god think are ok or not.

Nobody is stopping anyone from having a faith, its just that using tax payers money to pay teachers and built schools so only one specific faith can be pushed onto children is a very very bad idea. Church and state should be separate.

SpaceTime

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

There wasn't enough interest in her own school for there to be a physics class so she did physics through our school.

If she had wanted to do woodwork in her school, or Building Construction, she wouldn't have been able to either.

I don't think there were the resources there to include physics on the school timetable for one student. Not sure why that's so disconcerting.

Because in any other country they'd have a scale of secondary school that offered all subjects.

I've lived in France and the U.S. and quite honestly, this kind of thing shocks me.

That simply wouldn't have been an issue in the French lycée system because you'd have an excellent level of resourcing because the school is seen as a regional facility.

Most of them are more like mini-universities with facilities comparable to a smaller Irish IT in the senior cycle range of ages.

Why? Because they operate them mostly as large facilities serving a wider area and they don't have 20 sponsors competing for limited resources.

They even usually combine the local schools into a single area where they can share facilities with the commune like : library, amazing sports facilities (often including a small stadium, track and field facilities and a swimming pool (often with diving pools and an Olympic pool).

So you've a huge big sports centre available to the schools and the community at large too.

It's not necessarily because they spend more money it's because they spend their money sensibly on a far better facility that isn't about scattering resources to the four winds and 20
Religious orders and others.

This thing they have called "planning" and "not flushing the resources down the toilet"

Ireland has a lot to learn really. It's still not quite a modern country in areas like this. Aspects of it operate like little fiefdoms.

jimd2

eviltwin wrote: »

In the late 90's I had a baby outside wedlock. I came home one day a few months before she was born to find three people from a Catholic group with my mother, over the course of two hours they wouldn't let me leave the house and put huge pressure on me to have my baby adopted. When I refused I was kicked out and my mother hasn't spoken to me since. This with full support of her church. Religion is harmful.

That behaviour by everyone involved is totally unacceptable and immoral. I hope that you and your child were able to get over this.

purplecow1977

Cabaal wrote: »

I agree, some things parents should very much take responsibility for when it comes to children.

Religion is one of those things, its a very personal thing and as we've seen not everyone appreciates how a teacher might push parts of a religious faith onto their child (or how they may give out to a child for not believing certain stuff).

Many people that call themselves catholic in Ireland think the church's teachings on many topics are complete and utter nonsense and have no place in modern Ireland. (no sex before marriage, divorce being wrong, gay people being unnatural to name just a few).

Best leave it to parents to tell their kids how nice and caring god is and what people (gay people for example) god think are ok or not.

I think so too.

Teachers can only do so much and I really do try my best.

But schools are expected to take responsibility for so much (I won't get started!) and I think sometimes parents need to take some responsibility. I taught 32 children. How could I possibly approach sex eductation appropriately for each of those 32? It's such a sensitive topic with a huge array of possible questions. Parents would be better able to discuss this individually. (Some children as I said earlier opted out, or rather their parents chose to remove them from this discussion which is a pity, but maybe they wanted to discuss it with their own children, in their own way).

Penny Tration

SpaceTime wrote: »

Do you not think its a bit odd in a 21st century western country that a girl had to go to a different school to study physics ?!?!?!?!?

This is the kind of thing that worries me about Ireland - this is happening and more scarily that people think it's acceptable !

My secondary school (I did the LC in 2006, so relatively recently!) didn't offer physics OR chemistry.

I set up a petition to force them to give me two science subjects (I was going to college to study science), so they caved and gave us a chemistry class. But they didn't hire a new teacher, they got the maths teacher to read the books and recite it back to us essentially!

The all male school we were sister school to, offered all three science subjects.

frostyjacks

tehbaggins wrote: »

Can I get a citation on that please? What studies? Done where? And have they been peer reviewed?

The US dept of education reviewed 2,221 studies

http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/other/single-sex/single-sex.pdf

" In general, most studies reported positive effects for SS schools on all-subject achievement tests," and "The preponderance of studies in areas such as academic accomplishment (both concurrent and long term) and adaptation or socioemotional development (both concurrent and long term) yields results lending support to SS schooling."

Is there studies to show that it's unnatural?

purplecow1977

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

My secondary school (I did the LC in 2006, so relatively recently!) didn't offer physics OR chemistry.

I set up a petition to force them to give me two science subjects (I was going to college to study science), so they caved and gave us a chemistry class. But they didn't hire a new teacher, they got the maths teacher to read the books and recite it back to us essentially!

That's a completely separate issue, and nothing to do with your gender
It has to do with demand and teacher allocation

I wanted to do Music for my leaving cert but only 6 of us were interested and they needed 12 I think to run the class, so it didn't happen

Again, an issue for the government!

Cabaal

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

My secondary school (I did the LC in 2006, so relatively recently!) didn't offer physics OR chemistry.

I set up a petition to force them to give me two science subjects (I was going to college to study science), so they caved and gave us a chemistry class. But they didn't hire a new teacher, they got the maths teacher to read the books and recite it back to us essentially!

Not as recent,
But our school had a a science subject, but you had to choose between science or business when it came to LV.

Prior to third year the school also decided that when they split the class (due to size) into A and B classes that the B class could not do science.
:rolleyes:

lazygal

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

My secondary school (I did the LC in 2006, so relatively recently!) didn't offer physics OR chemistry.

I set up a petition to force them to give me two science subjects (I was going to college to study science), so they caved and gave us a chemistry class. But they didn't hire a new teacher, they got the maths teacher to read the books and recite it back to us essentially!

My school was really progressive when it came to science. All LC main science subjects were offered and it was expected that you'd do higher level. If there was a demand for something the school and teachers would try to facilitate it. I also had science in primary school.
The reason for this was because I went to very large schools both at primary and secondary level where there were so many pupils things like science and special needs could always be catered for. All these tiny schools are at a big disadvantage. I also never had fewer than 36 pupils in my class all through primary. There were 40 during one year.

SpaceTime

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

My secondary school (I did the LC in 2006, so relatively recently!) didn't offer physics OR chemistry.

I set up a petition to force them to give me two science subjects (I was going to college to study science), so they caved and gave us a chemistry class. But they didn't hire a new teacher, they got the maths teacher to read the books and recite it back to us essentially!

I'm a bloke and I think that's absolutely shocking institutionalised sexism.

It's coming from a legacy that girls didn't study science so resources weren't provided.

My mum for example couldn't get into a course she wanted in university without doing an extra year to study honours maths. That was a disgrace in the 1970 and to hear it was going on in 2006 makes my blood boil.

That isn't acceptable and it's the Irish government failing Irish women. It annoys the hell out of me when I could have a daughter, relative or friend being denied access to education based on her gender.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

That's a completely separate issue, and nothing to do with your gender
It has to do with demand and teacher allocation

I wanted to do Music for my leaving cert but only 6 of us were interested and they needed 12 I think to run the class, so it didn't happen

Again, an issue for the government!

How is it an issue for the government when many secondary schools operate as private entities with state funding? If the government can't compel religious orders not to indoctrinate on school time how can it dictate the allocation of resources?

Cabaal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

That's a completely separate issue, and nothing to do with your gender
It has to do with demand and teacher allocation

I wanted to do Music for my leaving cert but only 6 of us were interested and they needed 12 I think to run the class, so it didn't happen

Again, an issue for the government!

At secondary level atleast, you could free up one teacher (or more in larger schools) and numerous classes a week to fit a more important subject by taking religion out of school.

Penny Tration

purplecow1977 wrote: »

That's a completely separate issue, and nothing to do with your gender
It has to do with demand and teacher allocation

I wanted to do Music for my leaving cert but only 6 of us were interested and they needed 12 I think to run the class, so it didn't happen

Again, an issue for the government!

I edited my post to add further information.

I doubt very much it was a case of no demand. The school had NEVER offered more than Biology. The boys school had always offered all three. The boys chemistry class in my year had five pupils. The one I convinced them to make had 8, out of a year of 21 5th year pupils, compared to the boys school's year of 50-odd pupils.

SpaceTime

frostyjacks wrote: »

The US dept of education reviewed 2,221 studies

http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/other/single-sex/single-sex.pdf

" In general, most studies reported positive effects for SS schools on all-subject achievement tests," and "The preponderance of studies in areas such as academic accomplishment (both concurrent and long term) and adaptation or socioemotional development (both concurrent and long term) yields results lending support to SS schooling."

Is there studies to show that it's unnatural?

There are extremely limited numbers of single sex schools in the United States other than some very academic, Catholic fee paying places.

Comparing them to a general purpose high school ignores parental attitudes, pre selection of students by the enrollment system, attitudes towards end results & focus on high achievement because the school is likely to be private, results orientated etc etc

In Ireland you also get comparisons between high achieving quasi private schools and a local comprehensive / community school done a lot too to prove this point.

It's a very misleading comparison most of the time.

Also the highest achieving schools here are probably mixed, secular, commercially run grind schools!

It just depends on whether you consider leaving cert points as a measure of life achievement or not.

purplecow1977

Jenny Thalia wrote:

I doubt very much it was a case of no demand. The school had NEVER offered more than Biology. The boys school had always offered all three. The boys chemistry class in my year had five pupils. The one I convinced them to make had 8, out of a year of 21 5th year pupils, compared to the boys school's year of 50-odd pupils.

I didn't know that when I originally replied.

However most schools operate a system where if demand isn't there, and I think there needed to be 12 wanting a subject when I was at school, that generally the school cannot provide that subject.

The teaching councj is very strict now on preventing teachers from taking other classes that are not on their registration.

tehbaggins

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I didn't know that when I originally replied.

However most schools operate a system where if demand isn't there, and I think there needed to be 12 wanting a subject when I was at school, that generally the school cannot provide that subject.

The teaching councj is very strict now on preventing teachers from taking other classes that are not on their registration.

Wait, what? You're telling me that essential classes that are required for certain university courses are elective classes that all schools aren't required to offer? Or that university requirements aren't mandatory?

Learn something new every day...