Religion in junior infants

Teyla Emmagan

lazygal wrote: »

I think its hilarious that in so many parts of the country there's no choice but to send your child to a religious school.

Actually, its not hilarious in the slightest. But it is hilarious that people who comment on sending children to a school in an area with no other school options available find it hilarious that people dare to complain about indoctrination.

If you know it's a religious school, and you choose to send your child there, then I don't think you should complain about your child then being taught that religion. If you're annoyed about the lack of choice in your area then set up an Educate together. I don't think there should be any religion in schools, but IMO the non practising parents who make a REALLY BIG DEAL about what they think is a load of hogwash are being really unfair to the parents (and children) who want their kid to learn about God.

Baggy Trousers

Our school let the kids opt out of all religious stuff and it was no problem.
It was a Catholic ethos school but I'd say over 20% of the class opted out.
The school never made an issue out of it; the non-Catholic kids were allowed to draw or do homework during the time.
My feeling is that it depends on how young/liberal/tolerant/religious the principal is but ours was fantastic.
They didn't really care about baptismal certs at the start either, they were more concerned about student numbers.

Cabaal

ash23 wrote: »

I've no problem with a prayer here and there, a trip to mass etc. But the over the top stuff (IMO) is where I start to get uncomfortable.
By all means teach my child to love and accept others but don't tell her she is going to hell if she is gay or I'm bad in the eyes of god for having her outside of wedlock blah de blah

Problem is that's exactly what the catholic ethos is,
We're all aware that priests read out messages about how wrong gay marriage is prior to the ref in May of this year, those same priests are involved in the local catholic schools.

You can't have a school that claims it has no problem with gay parents or students, but at the same time the schools ethos means it see's gay people as wrong and unnatural.

One way or another they give your child the message that sex before marriage, pregnant outside of marriage, being gay etc are all wrong and sinful. After all the teachings are from the bible.

You can't opt in to a religion that see's the bible as the word of god and then disagree with the words of that religions god. If you don't like the "over the top stuff" then its better for everyone to opt out and teach your child peace and love yourself.

Cabaal

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

If you're annoyed about the lack of choice in your area then set up an Educate together.

You do realise that setting up a ET school is not a quick overnight process thats free right?

You could start trying to set one up when your child is born and they could actually be in college (or at the very least finish primary) by the time you get one setup in your area and department of education approval and/or funding.

lazygal

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

If you know it's a religious school, and you choose to send your child there, then I don't think you should complain about your child then being taught that religion. If you're annoyed about the lack of choice in your area then set up an Educate together. I don't think there should be any religion in schools, but IMO the non practising parents who make a REALLY BIG DEAL about what they think is a load of hogwash are being really unfair to the parents (and children) who want their kid to learn about God.

Do you know how difficult it is to set up a primary school? It is not just a case of ringing the Minister and asking for a school for your children to be established. I have correspondance from the Department telling me that as there are sufficient places in schools for all children in my area, no new schools will receive funding. So my children have no choice whatsoever, and no amount of telling me to set up an Educate Together will change that.
Of course parents might want their children about God. I want mine to, also, but there's a difference between children learning about God and children being obliged to undergo indoctrination in state funded schools. That's unfair too.

eviltwin

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

If you know it's a religious school, and you choose to send your child there, then I don't think you should complain about your child then being taught that religion. If you're annoyed about the lack of choice in your area then set up an Educate together. I don't think there should be any religion in schools, but IMO the non practising parents who make a REALLY BIG DEAL about what they think is a load of hogwash are being really unfair to the parents (and children) who want their kid to learn about God.

A much more sensible solution would be to end religious segregation of children in the first place. It's completely ridiculous it's still allowed to happen. We have a mixed faith community, schools should reflect that.

lazygal

ash23 wrote: »

I had a choice of four nearby primary schools, all catholic. If I wanted an ET school I'd have had to travel and hour at least. Unfortunately that is the reality for many Irish parents.
I've no problem with a prayer here and there, a trip to mass etc. But the over the top stuff (IMO) is where I start to get uncomfortable.
By all means teach my child to love and accept others but don't tell her she is going to hell if she is gay or I'm bad in the eyes of god for having her outside of wedlock blah de blah

That's Catholic teaching though. You can't pick the nice bits about the faith that you like and do communion as a nice day out, and then complain about the Catholic church preaching that gay people are intrinsically disordered. And sex outside of marriage is a sin in the Catholic faith. Hell, in the eyes of the Catholic church I'm not married because I didn't marry in the church.

tessat

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

If you know it's a religious school, and you choose to send your child there, then I don't think you should complain about your child then being taught that religion. If you're annoyed about the lack of choice in your area then set up an Educate together. I don't think there should be any religion in schools, but IMO the non practising parents who make a REALLY BIG DEAL about what they think is a load of hogwash are being really unfair to the parents (and children) who want their kid to learn about God.

You clearly live in Dublin where transport and choice are not an issue. My choices are Catholic school or no school. I'd be locked up for sending them to no school so Catholic school it is. I don't choose a Catholic school, I have no choice.

Orion

zeffabelli wrote: »

The problem I have with ET is when I visited one there were posters all over the walls about Ramadan.

ET have a Moral and Ethical Curriculum where they teach about all world religions. It's not religious instruction - it's religious education. This is far preferable to a single religion indoctrination. Like it or not religion is part of world culture - better to learn the differences and similarities than to live in ignorance of them.

Of course it would be better if religion was taken out of primary schools altogether and let parents/churches do it outside of school hours.

lazygal

tessat wrote: »

You clearly live in Dublin where transport and choice are not an issue. My choices are Catholic school or no school. I'd be locked up for sending them to no school so Catholic school it is. I don't choose a Catholic school, I have no choice.

Same in many areas in Dublin. We're considering moving house and the only options in the places we are looking at are Catholic schools. The CofI school in one area won't take any applications from non Protestant families.

Orion

Cabaal wrote: »

You do realise that setting up a ET school is not a quick overnight process thats free right?

You could start trying to set one up when your child is born and they could actually be in college (or at the very least finish primary) by the time you get one setup in your area and department of education approval and/or funding.

It can actually be done fairly quickly. In our area a group of parents first met with ET in January 2008 and the school opened that September.

Dr Turk Turkelton

In the last census did over 80% of respondents not identify as being Catholic? Would it then not make sense that the majority of schools in a mainly Catholic country would follow a Catholic ethos?
I can't get over people sending their kids to a Catholic school and then giving out about them being taught about it!
Over in the States it costs huge money to get your kids a Catholic education and yet we give out about it when it is free. I myself don't practise any religion but for my kids I will grab the excellent free education with both hands and be extremely grateful for it.
Would far prefer then to be educated in a Catholic ethos school than some hippy dippy, dance around the mulberry bush ethos Educate Together,not knowing which God to believe in this week.

lazygal

Orion wrote: »

It can actually be done fairly quickly. In our area a group of parents first met with ET in January 2008 and the school opened that September.

That's only in certain cases. I have been told by the Dept that as there is sufficient capacity in the areas I asked about no schools will be divested and no new schools will be sanctioned. In some areas of Dublin there is no choice and no plans to change that.

tessat

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

In the last census did over 80% of respondents not identify as being Catholic? Would it then not make sense that the majority of schools in a mainly Catholic country would follow a Catholic ethos?
I can't get over people sending their kids to a Catholic school and then giving out about them being taught about it!
Over in the States it costs huge money to get your kids a Catholic education and yet we give out about it when it is free. I myself don't practise any religion but for my kids I will grab the excellent free education with both hands and be extremely grateful for it.
Would far prefer then to be educated in a Catholic ethos school than some hippy dippy, dance around the mulberry bush ethos Educate Together,not knowing which God to believe in this week.

Did you know that the majority of students do not have special needs, should we say they shouldn't get the education they require simply because the majority have different needs?

mahoganygas

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I know we live in an increasingly secular society but if you send your kid to a religious school this is what you get.

Yes, we live in a secular society but unfortunately our education system is far from secular. It's incredibly difficult to find a non-religious school in this country, particularly in rural areas. Most parents do not have the luxury of choice.

eviltimeban

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

Would far prefer then to be educated in a Catholic ethos school than some hippy dippy, dance around the mulberry bush ethos Educate Together,not knowing which God to believe in this week.

That's just nonsense.

ThisRegard

By accepting a place in a school with a Catholic ethos, you don't really have too much grounds for complaint about your kids being taught about the catholic religion in fairness.

I'm far from religious and our daughter just finished junior infants. It don't bother me in the slightest she's being taught Catholicism, it's not like she's going to become a nun afterwards. Once they get to secondary that's pretty much the end of catholic specific teachings anyway.

And it hasn't done any of us here any harm in how we view creation vs evolution after being taught the fire and brimestone type back in the 70s and 80s.

Orion

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

Would far prefer then to be educated in a Catholic ethos school than some hippy dippy, dance around the mulberry bush ethos Educate Together,not knowing which God to believe in this week.

You obviously have no clue what ET is actually about.

Orion

ThisRegard wrote: »

Once they get to secondary that's pretty much the end of catholic specific teachings anyway.

If only that was the case. A lot of secondary schools are run by religious orders too. And the curriculum is rife with catholic teachings.

Akrasia

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

In the last census did over 80% of respondents not identify as being Catholic? Would it then not make sense that the majority of schools in a mainly Catholic country would follow a Catholic ethos?
I can't get over people sending their kids to a Catholic school and then giving out about them being taught about it!
Over in the States it costs huge money to get your kids a Catholic education and yet we give out about it when it is free. I myself don't practise any religion but for my kids I will grab the excellent free education with both hands and be extremely grateful for it.
Would far prefer then to be educated in a Catholic ethos school than some hippy dippy, dance around the mulberry bush ethos Educate Together,not knowing which God to believe in this week.

Children should not be indoctrinated by the state into any faith, and children should not be segregated based on the religious or cultural background of their parents.

We should strive for an inter-cultural society, where people from all different backgrounds mix together and learn from each other and accept each other.

Denominational schools cause multiculturalism, where people are free to practise their own cultural beliefs, but are not encouraged to integrate into society.

We don't want to have an Ireland of ghettos and division. We should work together, we should socialise together and we should educate together

lazygal

ThisRegard wrote: »

By accepting a place in a school with a Catholic ethos, you don't really have too much grounds for complaint about your kids being taught about the catholic religion in fairness.

Children have a constitutional right to attend school without having to partake in religious instruction.

eviltwin

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

In the last census did over 80% of respondents not identify as being Catholic? Would it then not make sense that the majority of schools in a mainly Catholic country would follow a Catholic ethos?
I can't get over people sending their kids to a Catholic school and then giving out about them being taught about it!
Over in the States it costs huge money to get your kids a Catholic education and yet we give out about it when it is free. I myself don't practise any religion but for my kids I will grab the excellent free education with both hands and be extremely grateful for it.
Would far prefer then to be educated in a Catholic ethos school than some hippy dippy, dance around the mulberry bush ethos Educate Together,not knowing which God to believe in this week.

I wouldn't go by the census. My husband ticked Catholic because he thought that was what he should do despite not having been in a church in over 20 yrs. Take a look at mass attendance, that will give you a better indication.

And as for your interpretation of an ET school....Thanks for the laugh. You really haven't got a clue have you?

mahoganygas

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

If you know it's a religious school, and you choose to send your child there, then I don't think you should complain about your child then being taught that religion. If you're annoyed about the lack of choice in your area then set up an Educate together..

The government have been dragging their heels for years on setting up ET schools and changing patronage of existing Catholic schools.

In reality there is not a lot a parent can do to speed up this process. By the time their child is of school-going age they are forced to enroll them in the local Catholic school.
Which is why I support obstructionism. By all means, jump through all the hoops (including baptism) to get your child enrolled. But once they are enrolled, immediately take them out of Religion class. If enough parents take their kids out of class, it might finally send a message to the government.

LegacyUser

mahoganygas wrote: »

Yes, we live in a secular society but unfortunately our education system is far from secular. It's incredibly difficult to find a non-religious school in this country, particularly in rural areas. Most parents do not have the luxury of choice.

Just my opinion but parents DO have a choice,

if there are a group of parents who get together they CAN start a new school of their choosing,

you have 5 years (5 and a half if you include pregnancy) to find the right school for your child, if you know there is no school in the area to your satisfaction find others in the area willing to set up a new school,

it happened here in with our local Gaelscoil where parents wanted a Gaelscoil and the department wouldn't give them one (other suitable school's in the area excuse) they got no funding either, so the parents got together made a committee with a group of teachers who were also interested in teaching in Irish and in a short time saved up enough funding, found a premises, to this day the school is heavily funded/subsidised by the parents but it's worth it to get a quality education the way we wanted (in this case in irish, in your case with no religion) and no the funding doesn't cost us a huge amount per year.

with all the teachers out of work, and newly qualified graduates and all the teachers who aren't catholic (or lapsed catholics) it shouldn't be too difficult to get a group together to start a new school. It just requires a lot of leg work which parents tend to be too lazy to do instead choosing the "easy" option to send them to a catholic school and complain about their teachings.

zeffabelli

eviltwin wrote: »

A much more sensible solution would be to end religious segregation of children in the first place. It's completely ridiculous it's still allowed to happen. We have a mixed faith community, schools should reflect that.

And gender segregation!

Dr Turk Turkelton

Akrasia wrote: »

Children should not be indoctrinated by the state into any faith, and children should not be segregated based on the religious or cultural background of their parents.

We should strive for an inter-cultural society, where people from all different backgrounds mix together and learn from each other and accept each other.

Denominational schools cause multiculturalism, where people are free to practise their own cultural beliefs, but are not encouraged to integrate into society.

We don't want to have an Ireland of ghettos and division. We should work together, we should socialise together and we should educate together

Sounds like hippy talk to me. I'm sure as children grow older they will make up their own minds anyhow. If they need to be told to accept other people from other cultures in school then their parents have failed at parenting.

eviltwin

zeffabelli wrote: »

And gender segregation!

That's been dealt with, all new schools have to be mixed. Maybe that's the way forward, no new schools to be run by Catholic groups until things are more balanced.

hairyslug

hairyslug wrote: »

This has us kinda stuck, our eldest will be going into 1st class, I'm an atheist and don't see the need for religious classes in school, as was said before, leave it to Sunday schools and mass. But my daughter really wants to do it, she is already looking forward to her 1st communion, for no other reason that to wear a fancy dress. We have the option of pulling her out of these classes but she will be the only one in her class not doing it and she doesn't want to be left out

Make her go to Mass every Sunday and make her listen to the readings and Sermon. Question her on it and make sure she understands that it's not all about the white dress. Play down the actual dress and if possible arrange to borrow one. If she makes any mention of money, tell her that as you won't be giving any money to any of her classmates, that she needn't expect any in return. That will focus her mind! We did that for First Communion. We also left church pretty quickly and went out for the day, taking off the dress and having fun as a family. When it came to Confirmation, we gave them the choice. They both decided to go for it. They had to attend Mass for a whole year beforehand (our decision) and both made Confirmation in their uniforms. Again, we left church and went out for the day. It is up to you to focus on the religious aspect, even if you don't believe and celebrate the day as you want to. There really is no need for the expensive dress, bouncy castle and big party!

lazygal

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

Sounds like hippy talk to me. I'm sure as children grow older they will make up their own minds anyhow. If they need to be told to accept other people from other cultures in school then their parents have failed at parenting.

If they need to be told which God to worship in school have their parents also failed at parenting?

Dr Turk Turkelton

eviltwin wrote: »

I wouldn't go by the census. My husband ticked Catholic because he thought that was what he should do despite not having been in a church in over 20 yrs. Take a look at mass attendance, that will give you a better indication.

And as for your interpretation of an ET school....Thanks for the laugh. You really haven't got a clue have you?

But the census is the only official way of knowing and definitely the most accurate as the sample size is huge (greater than 90%of the population) as opposed to your sample size of... 1(your husband).