Religion in junior infants

inocybe

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Home school is always an option then Considering schools are such bad places!

Really, how's that an option? I'm required to work, how do I buy food if I'm home schooling.

zeffabelli

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I'm not religious and I don't get why a multi-denominational school would be such a huge problem for someone.

A core principle of Educate Together is that children of all social, cultural and religious backgrounds are equally respected.

So why would there be a problem with that?

BEcause if like me, you cant respect your own religion how will you respect all of them? Can I equally disrespect them...though I kind of like the Quakers.... and the ancient Greek polytheists.

Seriously, they are all a scam.

My problem with my local ET school is I could not get any solid data on the graduates....in other words I have no idea where they end up.

So I made the decision based on what schools they were feeder schools for.

Not a NSA agent

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The majority of parents in Ireland want their children to attend religious ethos schools.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"

Care to put a figure on that, or is it simply another extraordinary claim you expect I should take at face value without question?

In a country with 33% mass attendance and over 50% saying religions isnt important in their lives I struggle to believe that extraordinary claim.

tehbaggins

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Care to put a figure on that, or is it simply another extraordinary claim you expect I should take at face value without question?

Just like I'm supposed to take Catholicism, you mean? How about the fact that most, if not all ET schools receive far more applications than they could ever hope to accommodate and that the waiting lists number in the hundreds? That should be proof enough, but as of now I'm afraid I don't have anything but anecdotal evidence beyond that.

eviltwin

Not a NSA agent wrote: »

In a country with 33% mass attendance and over 50% saying religions isnt important in their lives I struggle to believe that extraordinary claim.

I actually wouldn't be surprised by One Eyes claim. I bet most do but not because they have any real faith, rather I think its they want to have the big day out without having to do any of the leg work themselves. How nice for them that they only have to worry about what dress to buy or where to have the party rather than the boring stuff like what the sacrament is actually about.

LegacyUser

This is also an issue for teachers themselves. If you don't want to teach the Catholic faith you will find it difficult to find a job.



I taught in a very religious school for 2 years - easily spending the 2.5 hours per week doing RE.

Even had a CV going around saying that I went to mass every Sunday.


Current school is a bit more relaxed, didn't do / say a single prayer the whole year and treat the alive o book as a colouring book.

Thing is, if anyone complained about this I could be in trouble but hasn't come up yet.

ET not an option for me where I live.


Most teachers in my current school would be similar to me.

Not a NSA agent

eviltwin wrote: »

I actually wouldn't be surprised by One Eyes claim. I bet most do but not because they have any real faith, rather I think its they want to have the big day out without having to do any of the leg work themselves. How nice for them that they only have to worry about what dress to buy or where to have the party rather than the boring stuff like what the sacrament is actually about.

Seeing how it is common enough for parents to complain about having to take their children to mass around those sacraments I wouldnt doubt that part. I just doubt that if we had a system which treated all children equal with a few schools with a religious ethos, that the parents would be expecting more of those schools to be built. They tend to be kept for the more devout followers which Ireland is supposedly full of.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I don't teach about ideals in my class because I teach families of all sorts and sizes so you can relax.

I understand this is a sore topic for you, but that probably says more in itself than anything.

You're getting a bit judgmental now. Not the kind of attitude I'd expect from a teacher who teaches impressionable children.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Home school is always an option then Considering schools are such bad places!

Wow. Is this what you tell anyone who has any issue with your teaching? Do you think it's a viable option for many families?

One eyed Jack

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I'm not religious and I don't get why a multi-denominational school would be such a huge problem for someone.

A core principle of Educate Together is that children of all social, cultural and religious backgrounds are equally respected.

So why would there be a problem with that?

The problem is for some people that there is any teaching about religion in the school at all, and then for some people, the problem is that they feel that they and their religion aren't being respected in an ET school environment -

Limerick school apologises for upset over Charlie Hebdo

eviltwin

Not a NSA agent wrote: »

Seeing how it is common enough for parents to complain about having to take their children to mass around those sacraments I wouldnt doubt that part. I just doubt that if we had a system which treated all children equal with a few schools with a religious ethos, that the parents would be expecting more of those schools to be built. They tend to be kept for the more devout followers which Ireland is supposedly full of.

Well i think its telling that the survey was done on primary school children only, a large amount of those parents would have kids yet to do Confirmation or FHC so they would be more inclined to be lazy about taking charge of that themselves. I wonder if they had asked those parents once their kids were out of the primary system what the results would have been.

mickstupp

My cousin's daughter, when she was first being taught religion, came home thinking Jesus was basically like Superman. A superhero. That struck me as deeply insidious, equating religious figures to comic book heroes, preying on the fact that kids might look up to what they see in cartoons or movies, and then link that idolisation to Jesus.

Not a NSA agent

eviltwin wrote: »

Well i think its telling that the survey was done on primary school children only, a large amount of those parents would have kids yet to do Confirmation or FHC so they would be more inclined to be lazy about taking charge of that themselves. I wonder if they had asked those parents once their kids were out of the primary system what the results would have been.

They wouldnt even have to do it themselves, I know quite a few Catholic parents sending their children to ET schools and they get the religion classes and sacraments so it wouldnt even require that much effort. The additional bonus is no Catholic children aren't treated any differently, its an after school activity for those interested.

Theres probably an element of parents wanting to send their children to the same school as them.

SpaceTime

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

It wasn't a big town. There weren't the resources.

France and the US operate on entirely different levels of scale.

They don't actually.
Much of Western France has almost exactly the same population distribution as Ireland.

Many parts of the U.S. are even less populated than Ireland.

In France, there's huge population densities around Paris and its hinterland, Lyon and maybe Nice.

After that there's a few cities on a Dublin scale and most of the rest are small.

Western France in particular is extremely comparable to Ireland and Scotland. A lot of the towns and cities aren't a lot bigger than Tralee or Sligo.

The notion that we have insufficient scale is an absolute cop out used for everything here.

They just organise things a hell of a lot better and plan to ensure that you've a collection of "collages" (middle schools) and then you've typically got very well resources lycées (high schools) with vast array of subject choice or very specialised in a particular area eg science.

They also tend to link those with further education services that are in between school university - things like a College of Commerce or PLC type programme would offer here.

Ireland's population is low ish density but it's far from unique.

We just couldn't organise a p*** up in a brewery!

I get fed up with Irish exceptionalism being used to excuse weird discriminatory systems and institutional incompetence at government level.

We've a mess because they allowed the vested Interests to run the show in their interest and not the public interest!

Same applies in health, same applies in planning and development.

If the public interest and providing a public service were the main motive we might actually have a properly functioning country across a whole load of areas.

It's all blame the Brits, blame historical stuff, blame cultural issues, blame the church, blame the EU

We voted for these policies .. They are utterly daft and nobody seems to want to see the place as a functioning, integrated, interconnected society. It's all just grab resources and keep them for my patch.

eviltwin

Not a NSA agent wrote: »

They wouldnt even have to do it themselves, I know quite a few Catholic parents sending their children to ET schools and they get the religion classes and sacraments so it wouldnt even require that much effort. The additional bonus is no Catholic children aren't treated any differently, its an after school activity for those interested.

Theres probably an element of parents wanting to send their children to the same school as them.

That's true and I think there is still a huge problem with the image ET schools have, we've seen some of them here on this thread, hippy schools, problems with discipline etc. Some people don't like the idea of small children calling adults by their first name or not wearing a uniform. We generally have a crap attitude to kids in this country so its no wonder really people want to keep them in their place. ET schools encourage individuality, independence, they give kids a voice...can't be having that kind of thing

One eyed Jack

Not a NSA agent wrote: »

In a country with 33% mass attendance and over 50% saying religions isnt important in their lives I struggle to believe that extraordinary claim.

The evidence is in the fact that 92% of State funded schools are Catholic ethos schools, and over-subscription and availability of enrollment places is a problem we hear complaints about from parents every year, to the point where the Government has had to look at the admissions policy and is drafting a new bill to that effect -


School Admissions Bill: battle looms over rules on past pupils


The bill will not have any effect on denominational education -

Does the Bill safeguard denominational education?

Yes. The existing provisions in equality legislation are provided for. Religious schools can give preference to children of a particular faith in preference to others.

Section 7 of the Equal Status Act 2000 remains in place, whereby a school can refuse to admit a student of another denomination provided it can prove such a refusal is essential to maintain the ethos of the school.

tehbaggins wrote: »

Just like I'm supposed to take Catholicism, you mean? How about the fact that most, if not all ET schools receive far more applications than they could ever hope to accommodate and that the waiting lists number in the hundreds? That should be proof enough, but as of now I'm afraid I don't have anything but anecdotal evidence beyond that.

No, that's not what I mean. Your views on religion aren't actually what I asked for. I don't see any evidence forthcoming for your claim that most, if not all ET schools receive far more applications than they could ever hope to accommodate and that the waiting lists number in the hundreds either, so that's not actually proof of anything, but just another unsubstantiated claim in an attempt to back up an as yet unsubstantiated claim.

If you'd just said it was anecdotal evidence in the first place I would simply have said fair enough, but I was thinking you had some actual evidence is all given your desire to promote critical thinking in education.

inocybe

I can give you an anecdote, I put my sons name down for the nearest ET school when he was 6 months old. He didn't get a place.

eviltwin

inocybe wrote: »

I can give you an anecdote, I put my sons name down for the nearest ET school when he was 6 months old. He didn't get a place.

I put mine down the day after my 20 week scan to two ETs in the area. I was number 200 and something in one school, we didn't get a place. The second we did but just about.

Not a NSA agent

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The evidence is in the fact that 92% of State funded schools are Catholic ethos schools, and over-subscription and availability of enrollment places is a problem we hear complaints about from parents every year, to the point where the Government has had to look at the admissions policy and is drafting a new bill to that effect -

Most of the schools are catholic because most people send their child to a catholic school? Do you have evidence that all these parents specifically want a catholic ethos school and arent just sending them to the most convenient school? If you make most of the schools one denomination then most children would have to be sent to schools of that denomination to attend school.

The_Valeyard

mickstupp wrote: »

My cousin's daughter, when she was first being taught religion, came home thinking Jesus was basically like Superman. A superhero. That struck me as deeply insidious, equating religious figures to comic book heroes, preying on the fact that kids might look up to what they see in cartoons or movies, and then link that idolisation to Jesus.

The horror... A child might actually flook up to the idiols of Jesus.....Do no harm, treat others equally....love your neighbour etc etc.

Suppose it better to follow batman and beat the Sh*te of of criminals with a mask on.

eviltwin

The_Valeyard wrote: »

The horror... A child might actually flook up to the idiols of Jesus.....Do no harm, treat others equally....love your neighbour etc etc.

Suppose it better to follow batman and beat the Sh*te of of criminals with a mask on.

You don't need religion to teach a child morals.

lazygal

The_Valeyard wrote: »

The horror... A child might actually flook up to the idiols of Jesus.....Do no harm, treat others equally....love your neighbour etc etc.

Suppose it better to follow batman and beat the Sh*te of of criminals with a mask on.

Yeah, cos teaching children morals and ethics always requires a trade off between fictional characters.

The_Valeyard

eviltwin wrote: »

You don't need religion to teach a child morals.

Never said you that ,but that posters comments of 'preying' and 'insidious'awash plain ridiculous. Anti-theists Just want to stamp religion out of all elements of society and won't be happy until religions have been eliminated. Want religious stories seen as taboo, want believers to be treated as people with mental conditions. Akin to Soviet union or Albania of the past.

eviltwin

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Never said you that ,but that posters comments of 'preying' and 'insidious'awash plain ridiculous. Anti-theists Just want to stamp religion out of all elements of society and won't be happy until religions have been eliminated. Want religious stories seen as taboo, want believers to be treated as people with mental conditions. Akin to Soviet union or Albania of the past.

That's some conspiracy theory..I don't think anyone here has said anything of the sort. Religion is fine, its a personal choice but its a lifestyle choice and as such should not be enforced on those who don't want it.

tehbaggins

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Never said you that ,but that posters comments of 'preying' and 'insidious'awash plain ridiculous. Anti-theists Just want to stamp religion out of all elements of society and won't be happy until religions have been eliminated. Want religious stories seen as taboo, want believers to be treated as people with mental conditions. Akin to Soviet union or Albania of the past.

Not at all. Personally you can have all the religion you want, as long as you keep it private. It has no place in school, in business or in politics.

The_Valeyard

eviltwin wrote: »

That's some conspiracy theory..I don't think anyone here has said anything of the sort. Religion is fine, its a personal choice but its a lifestyle choice and as such should not be enforced on those who don't want it.

Really?? Not in this thread perhaps.....might look back and see....but in AH, I've seen plenty of comments that way enclined. and in a&a they make out that people who believe in a God have something wrong with them. Constant derogatory remarks made about Catholics, Muslims, etc.

One eyed Jack

eviltwin wrote: »

That's true and I think there is still a huge problem with the image ET schools have, we've seen some of them here on this thread, hippy schools, problems with discipline etc. Some people don't like the idea of small children calling adults by their first name or not wearing a uniform. We generally have a crap attitude to kids in this country so its no wonder really people want to keep them in their place. ET schools encourage individuality, independence, they give kids a voice...can't be having that kind of thing

eviltwin wrote: »

You don't need religion to teach a child morals.

lazygal wrote: »

Yeah, cos teaching children morals and ethics always requires a trade off between fictional characters.

And just like you don't need religion to teach a child morals and values and ethics and so on, you don't need an ET school to encourage individuality, independence, nor to give children a voice.

I don't like the idea of children calling me by my first name, and I'm one of those parents who prefers to have all the children wearing their uniforms as they represent the school (saves a fortune too on buying clothes throughout the year).

If that's a crap attitude to children, then I'll take that judgement with a pinch of salt tbh, I certainly don't think I have a crap attitude to children, and I don't think at all that the vast majority of people in this country have a crap attitude to children's welfare. They just have a different perspective to yours is all on what is best for their own children.

Not a NSA agent

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Really?? Not in this thread perhaps.....might look back and see....but in AH, I've seen plenty of comments that way enclined. and in a&a they make out that people who believe in a God have something wrong with them. Constant derogatory remarks made about Catholics, Muslims, etc.

People on the internet saying theres something wrong with another group of people. Thats not a common thing on boards at all :rolleyes:

zeffabelli

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The problem is for some people that there is any teaching about religion in the school at all, and then for some people, the problem is that they feel that they and their religion aren't being respected in an ET school environment -

Limerick school apologises for upset over Charlie Hebdo

I know of another case, not made papers or anything like that, but complaint was made about Oscar Wilde's fairy tales....read in school. Too Christian....complaints from parents of another religion.

This is the carry on I really don't like.

One eyed Jack

tehbaggins wrote: »

Not at all. Personally you can have all the religion you want, as long as you keep it private. It has no place in school, in business or in politics.

FWIW, I actually agree with your opinion. The issue here though is that our personal opinions aren't good enough for some people, and those people would seek to denigrate, humiliate and make little of people on the basis that they are religious.

How are those people any different from the people who they claim seek to force religion upon them?

Both are as ignorant and disrespectful as each other IMO.