Religion in junior infants

Alf Veedersane

eviltwin wrote: »

That's where we differ. I don't have any desire to be called Ms X by anyone, I find it stuffy. It doesn't matter to me if your 5 or 50 call me by my first name. I still find Ireland pretty bad in attitudes to children, they are seen as pains and a nuisance by a lot of people. I don't find Ireland particularly family friendly.

I don't see what the issue is with referring to someone as Mr/Ms X. It was de rigeueur in martial arts out of respect for people above a certain level. Peers in many cases. I think too many people associate it with subservience rather than respect. Of course, its absence isn't evidence of a lack of respect either so it's not necessary but it's not stuffy.

I have to say I haven't found it to be child unfriendly at all.

meeeeh

I must admit that coming from central Europe I always thought Irish are rather informal and I had to adjust quite significantly. I like formality in school because it offers some authority and authority is sometimes needed.

One eyed Jack

eviltwin wrote: »

That's where we differ. I don't have any desire to be called Ms X by anyone, I find it stuffy. It doesn't matter to me if your 5 or 50 call me by my first name.

Meh, I may as well just come out with it

Tbh eviltwin I'd have loved if I'd had you as my mum! That's not to say I don't love my own mother, of course I do, but the few insights you've given with your posts relating to your children, I have to say I have nothing but the greatest admiration for you, both as a parent and as a person!

There, I said it :P

I know we totally have different parenting styles and all and I know my parenting style is probably far more authoritarian than you'd ever likely be comfortable with, whereas the impression I get of your parenting style is that you're far more freestyle and allow your children much more freedom for self-expression. Both parenting styles have their pros and cons simply depending upon a person's perspective, and there's nothing to indicate that either are intrinsically the wrong way to bring up a child.

eviltwin wrote: »

I still find Ireland pretty bad in attitudes to children, they are seen as pains and a nuisance by a lot of people. I don't find Ireland particularly family friendly.

dogcat wrote: »

This, most adults here treat children like they're a nuisance who knows literally nothing which in most cases aren't true.

You're both talking about a whole society and a population of over six million people. You're both using very subjective judgement to make the statements above. I have no idea by what standards you're measuring child welfare but according to many of the reports I've seen, and I've seen a lot, Irish society isn't at all failing at the level some people perceive it to be. Absolutely there are areas which we could improve upon, but by independent standards, children in Irish society aren't all that badly off.

One of the most... telling, I suppose, indictments of Irish adults attitude to children and children's welfare was the dismally low turnout in the Children's Referendum -

The Thirty-first Amendment of the Constitution is an amendment to the Constitution of Ireland, relating to children's rights and the right and duty of the state to take child protection measures. It was effected by the Thirty-First Amendment of the Constitution (Children) Act 2012 (previously Bill No.78 of 2012). The bill was passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas (parliament) on 10 October 2012, and approved at a referendum on 10 November 2012, by 58% of voters on a turnout of 33.5%. Its enactment was then delayed by a High Court case challenging the conduct of the referendum. The High Court's rejection of the challenge was confirmed by the Supreme Court on 24 April 2015. It was signed into law by the President on 28 April 2015.

And the chances are you would see the same attitude reflected in many Western societies because it's as simple as children cannot advocate for themselves, and the adults are far more interested in their own welfare than they are to consider putting someone else's needs before their own. That's a commonality that isn't exclusive to Irish society, and I doubt anyone could point me to a society where children are actually viewed with the same authority as adults to advocate for themselves in the same manner as adults.

Aineoil

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Until you have a junior infant trying to say Iníon Ni Leathlobhair or Bean Ui Mhaoldomhnaigh.

Aontaím leat.

I have a very unusual Irish surname and you'd want to be a linguist gymnastic to pronounce it.

The amount of times I have been asked if that is the right spelling is quite funny!

If children call me Mrs O XXX I don't have a problem with that but I do find that very formal. I taught in the Middle East for a few years and the children there called me Mrs + my first name. I liked that.

It's not what you are called but the tone your name is said in

Cabaal

inocybe wrote: »

Left out question mark. Single parents aren't going to be the candidates of choice for teaching in a catholic school

Yeah, your right.
Thats why schools have the actual ability to fire a women who gets pregnant outside of marriage. An out dated and backwards ability, even if they haven't used it since 1982 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eileen_Flynn

Guess it shows just how out of step the whole catholic ethos school thing is with the rest of Irish society. In case the schools missed it, 40% of children born in the state in 2013 were to unmarried women.

Scary that the teacher unions don't look for this power to be removed from catholic ethos schools, but then they didn't seem too pushed about schools being about to have the power to sack gay or lesbian teachers either. Instead gay teachers have to live in fear of their job and essentially be bullied - http://www.thejournal.ie/gay-teachers-homophobia-1319137-Sep2014/

frostyjacks

Cabaal wrote: »

Yeah, your right.
Thats why schools have the actual ability to fire a women who gets pregnant outside of marriage. An out dated and backwards ability, even if they haven't used it since 1982.

Guess it shows just how out of step the whole catholic ethos school thing is with the rest of Irish society. In case the schools missed it, 40% of children born in the state in 2013 were to unmarried women.

How is it out of step? 40% is a minority from where I'm standing. If it was up to 60-70% you could say Catholic teaching was out of sync, but it doesn't appear to be the case. Even if rates did rise, I wouldn't want schools to teach children that it's somehow acceptable.

inocybe

frostyjacks wrote: »

How is it out of step? 40% is a minority from where I'm standing. If it was up to 60-70% you could say Catholic teaching was out of sync, but it doesn't appear to be the case. Even if rates did rise, I wouldn't want schools to teach children that it's somehow acceptable.

Acceptable to who? To you? To some theoretical supernatural being? I feel like I'm in some kind of timewarp back to the 50s here.
I still don't understand why catholics would want to have this power in education. Do you really want so many fake catholics, and people who dislike your religion within your schools? I actually felt a bit sorry for the priest in the church attached to my sons primary school. He would try to organize masses outside of school and only a handful would turn up. Church was packed for communion of course, but that's nothing to do with religion any more...

Cabaal

frostyjacks wrote: »

How is it out of step? 40% is a minority from where I'm standing. If it was up to 60-70% you could say Catholic teaching was out of sync, but it doesn't appear to be the case. Even if rates did rise, I wouldn't want schools to teach children that it's somehow acceptable.

Catholic teachings are out of step with society and you know right well they are.

Fine, you want a majority here's one....in case you missed it 62% of the population voted in favor of marriage equality for gay and lesbian couples, catholic teachings still teach that being gay is unnatural. The church's view is completely outdated and out of step in modern day Ireland.

Given the schools are catholic ethos this means that there teachings in relation to gay people in this country and completely out of step when it comes to what Irish society see's as acceptable and norm. Its deeply, deeply worrying that you think this is ok as it ignores the will of the people of Ireland.

Essentially we have a situation now where a school can teach a child that their parents marriage is unnatural and wrong, but yet the Irish people and Irish law see the couple as equal to any other marriage. A disgusting state of affairs that catholic ethos can be used to effectively abuse children in this way.

We're not in 1950's Ireland anymore,

If you think that its ok to discriminate against any grouping in society because there's less of them then I worry if you have any interaction with any children or vulnerable minority people or groups in Ireland.

galljga1

frostyjacks wrote: »

How is it out of step? 40% is a minority from where I'm standing. If it was up to 60-70% you could say Catholic teaching was out of sync, but it doesn't appear to be the case. Even if rates did rise, I wouldn't want schools to teach children that it's somehow acceptable.

It is good to see you are as enlightened as ever.

Cabaal

inocybe wrote: »

Church was packed for communion of course, but that's nothing to do with religion any more...

Its about the day out, the dressing up and the money for the vast majority.

Whilst for some it'll be about Jesus or God, for the majority a bouncy castle is much more important. This goes for the children as well as the parents.

soccercrew

Cabaal wrote: »

Its about the day out, the dressing up and the money for the vast majority.

Whilst for some it'll be about Jesus or God, for the majority a bouncy castle is much more important.

I agree, have 4 kids and even tell them there's no god but if they want to believe then its up to them but when its communion day, all the family get together go to church then big feed and piss up. Its just part of it all now, one good day out and that's all it matters to us.

purplecow1977

Cabaal wrote:

Cabaal wrote:

Scary that the teacher unions don't look for this power to be removed from catholic ethos schools, but then they didn't seem too pushed about schools being about to have the power to sack gay or lesbian teachers either. Instead gay teachers have to live in fear of their job and essentially be bullied -

Shows just how you know but then again it's easy to make false speculations from the outside.

Teachers at my meeting regularly called for section 37.1 to be abolished.
I know of two gay teachers by the way. Openly gay. They did have to wait until they were permanent to admit this, though most knew anyway. But do not dare say teachers didn't even mention this. Read the 2015 Congress report.

Cabaal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Teachers at my meeting regularly called for section 37.1 to be abolished.
I know of two gay teachers by the way. Openly gay. They did have to wait until they were permanent to admit this, though most knew anyway. But do not dare say teachers didn't even mention this. Read the 2015 Congress report.

I'm actually not looking to get into a argument with you, but I'm interested to know was it raised prior to 2015?...especially given its not been illegal to be gay in Ireland since the early 1990's.

Nobody should have to hide who they like you've explained, if this was any other employer they'd be uproar and rightly so I'm sure you'll agree,

purplecow1977

I will say this one more time and then that's it.
Majority of teachers and educators would happily see the role of the Catholic Church removed from our schools.
However, we have bigger fish to fry.

Reduce pupil teacher ratio so classes aren't 30+, my cousin started junior infants in a class of 36 last year, how anyone thinks the curriculum can be taught effectively in a situation like that is beyond me!

Also proper facilities and support for our children with SEN. Children who require psychological assessments but schools only granted low numbers for assessments so they're forced to wait or go privately, which many cannot afford.

Proper funding so that we are not forced to ask parents for voluntary contributions which aren't really voluntary because they are so desperately needed.

Our school has bits of prefabs and rooms everywhere that our electricity bill for 3 or 6 months, can't remember which, was 9 thousand euro.

A prefab costs about 1000 per month to rent if I remember correctly and we have 8 of them, some of them 10 years old! There are leaks in the ceilings, mould growing in the corridor, toilets get blocked easily as they can't cope with the number of flushes, no room in the car park so we're all double parked (let's hope nobody needs to leave in a hurry!)

Let's not forget the mice . Regular visitors!

So yes, bigger fish to fry.

Any campaign to remove the catholic church from schools has my support but we are doing the best we can.

purplecow1977

Look. I fully agree with you.
I cant recall if it was raised much prior to that.
With one particular teacher, it was, as they have regularly spoken out about it.

It's not just teaching people hide their sexuality though. Perhaps it's just personality.

But even until the referendum was passed..I wasn't sure it would. I was delighted it did because as a nation, we can be very old fashioned. Older members of my family voted no etc Education needs some modernisation no doubt, look at the rules for national school and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about!! But teachers are constantly met with insults and disdain..Maybe because its summer! And it can get very wearying when we are, most of us, doing the best we can.

I also think people in the East, or large towns, forget what rural Ireland is really like!! 2 teacher schools with the same 2 teachers for years.... Progression doesn't always happen in all areas and people can get stuck in a particular mind frame.

Cabaal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I will say this one more time and then that's it.
Majority of teachers and educators would happily see the role of the Catholic Church removed from our schools.
.

I've had mixed discussions on this topics with both teachers and principals, one principal I spoke to about the topic last year could see absolutely no issue with using catholic ethos as a way to exclude children from the school and saw no conflict with tax payer money being utilised in this way. This principal was only in their 50's, so thats worrying

They also seemed to have an awful snobbery towards ET schools, was all very odd.

I'd agree that sometimes (thankfully not always) rural schools can also be very much in the past in relation to viewpoints they hold.

lazygal

Have the teaching unions publicly called for the removal of the Catholic control of schools?

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote:

Have the teaching unions publicly called for the removal of the Catholic control of schools?

Bigger fish to fry.
It's the parents that have the major issue.
Let the initiate this one!

pwurple

Cabaal wrote: »

They also seemed to have an awful snobbery towards ET schools, was all very odd.

The only "snobbery" I've heard is from teachers who encounter students who have been transferred out of ET schools and have to start over again with some kids who were illiterate at 10 years of age. I'm sure it's not all ET schools, or all teachers, but they have a poor reputation around here.

zeffabelli

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Look. I fully agree with you.
I cant recall if it was raised much prior to that.
With one particular teacher, it was, as they have regularly spoken out about it.

It's not just teaching people hide their sexuality though. Perhaps it's just personality.

But even until the referendum was passed..I wasn't sure it would. I was delighted it did because as a nation, we can be very old fashioned. Older members of my family voted no etc Education needs some modernisation no doubt, look at the rules for national school and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about!! But teachers are constantly met with insults and disdain..Maybe because its summer! And it can get very wearying when we are, most of us, doing the best we can.

I also think people in the East, or large towns, forget what rural Ireland is really like!! 2 teacher schools with the same 2 teachers for years.... Progression doesn't always happen in all areas and people can get stuck in a particular mind frame.

A lot of adults still have such bad memories of school.... Myself included...that there's innate resentment.

I deeply resent homework.

I have an education ethic but that is despite school, mostly due to family ethics within the home. If I didn't have that is probably have been a drop out.

lazygal

pwurple wrote: »

The only "snobbery" I've heard is from teachers who encounter students who have been transferred out of ET schools and have to start over again with some kids who were illiterate at 10 years of age. I'm sure it's not all ET schools, or all teachers, but they have a poor reputation around here.

The school with the poorest reputation around here is Catholic and it's known as the one where you go if you can't get in anywhere else. Et schools have been around for years and teach the same curriculum as faith schools. The one nearest us has a waiting list a mile long.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Bigger fish to fry.
It's the parents that have the major issue.
Let the initiate this one!

That's disappointing, as you've said so many want the church out of schools. Another reason I consider the education system here is run more in the interests of teachers and churches than the children who are supposed to be educated.

One eyed Jack

Cabaal wrote: »

Catholic teachings are out of step with society and you know right well they are.

Other way round actually - society is out of step with Catholic teachings.

Fine, you want a majority here's one....in case you missed it 62% of the population voted in favor of marriage equality for gay and lesbian couples, catholic teachings still teach that being gay is unnatural. The church's view is completely outdated and out of step in modern day Ireland.

The Church isn't just the Hierarchy. There are many people who identify as Roman Catholic who don't agree with the Church's teachings on homosexuality, and there are many Roman Catholics in Ireland alone who identify as homosexual. Church teachings haven't changed - society has. People identifying as Roman Catholic who do not blindly follow Church teachings is a GOOD thing IMO because questioning the Church's teachings is what will bring about reform in the Church.

Given the schools are catholic ethos this means that there teachings in relation to gay people in this country and completely out of step when it comes to what Irish society see's as acceptable and norm. Its deeply, deeply worrying that you think this is ok as it ignores the will of the people of Ireland.

What teaching in relation to gay people? Teachers hardly teach anything about heterosexual relationships, let alone homosexual relationships. That is what the majority of parents want, because RSE and RSE policy is tailored by each school involving the parents, the patronage and the Board of Management, and it was a case just before the marriage equality referendum that in a Dublin school, the talk that was going to be given by a third party was vetoed by the PARENTS.

lazygal asked earlier in the thread why is RSE outsourced by the schools? Simply because many teachers don't want to do it, and those that do, do it with the best of intentions, but they do it badly. There's a report on this from 2007 but I'll link it later when I'm at a laptop, I'm on mobile right now. Trust me, it's better that it's outsourced to a third party, but the buck stops with the parents, and if the parents either object, or withdraw their children from the RSE program, that's not the fault of the school, or the Church, that is the prerogative of the PARENTS.

Essentially we have a situation now where a school can teach a child that their parents marriage is unnatural and wrong, but yet the Irish people and Irish law see the couple as equal to any other marriage. A disgusting state of affairs that catholic ethos can be used to effectively abuse children in this way.

Who's fault is that though? The parents who choose to put their child in that school, where they learn very quickly on the playground that anything outside the norm is going to be hounded upon (and that comes from those children's parents). One of the things that actually influences children to go against their parents attitudes on many issues is the Church's teachings on tolerance and respect for everyone. I've even heard children on the school yard say to one another - "You're an atheist!", in a derogatory fashion. Atheism is the new gay, as being gay just doesn't get that much of a reaction any more. I called them up on it btw and reported it to the Principal. I certainly won't tolerate that nonsense in any school. Many more people simply wouldn't give a shìt, nothing to do with them.

Nice that you'd try and wedge the "effectively" abusing children in there, but you're a long way from it. If you want to paint a bullseye on anyone's back, it's the parents who are making the decisions for their children that you need to talk to, and tell them that they are effectively abusing their children. Let me know how that works out for you if you don't end up in A&E.

We're not in 1950's Ireland anymore

No we're not, but you seem surprised that hypocrisy is alive and well in Irish society as it always was? In another 100 years there will be someone else saying we're not in 2015 any more as though that makes any difference. It shouldn't surprise you that in 2015, your ideas of a society you want your children to grow up in, and the ideas of a society that someone else wants their children to grow up in, could be worlds apart.

One of the core ideas of liberal philosophy is that everyone has the freedom to choose, it's a philosophy based solely on individuals and their personal freedom, well people are choosing. They're just not choosing what you might want them to choose. Trust me, they don't see it as their problem...

If you think that its ok to discriminate against any grouping in society because there's less of them then I worry if you have any interaction with any children or vulnerable minority people or groups in Ireland.

That's quite a nasty personal dig there against a person you know nothing about. Do you think it's acceptable to make nasty personal digs about people you know nothing about? You're calling for respect for a minority position and expecting people will empathise with you while you throw shìt like that in their faces? It really shouldn't come as a shock to you that people will at least turn their backs as they don't want to get hit in the face with that crap.

Cabaal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Bigger fish to fry.
It's the parents that have the major issue.
Let the initiate this one!

Thing is it could more easily happen if teachers did get behind it, this would also ensure that department of education aren't splitting resources into operating more ET schools.

Which in turn means that funding is available for other issues like kids that need assistance.

Cabaal

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Other way round actually - society is out of step with Catholic teachings.

Society is out of step with Islamic teachings too, imagine...allowing women and men to work side by side and having equal rights in work, voting, education. Shocking stuff.
:rolleyes:

The thing that needs to change is the catholic church, not society. Soceity has proven that it wants equality for its sisters and brothers. The church is still teaching seperation.

The Church isn't just the Hierarchy.

errr yes it is, the catholic ethos is decided by the Vatican and Bishops in Ireland. The avg Joe on the street that thinks marriage equality is fine does not control the church's viewpoint on gay people.

There are many people who identify as Roman Catholic who don't agree with the Church's teachings on homosexuality, and there are many Roman Catholics in Ireland alone who identify as homosexual. Church teachings haven't changed - society has. People identifying as Roman Catholic who do not blindly follow Church teachings is a GOOD thing IMO because questioning the Church's teachings is what will bring about reform in the Church.

Its great that some catholic people do have no problem with gay people, but if they don't like their local priest telling them about how unnatural gay people are then they need to tell the priest that. They need to walk out of mass etc...like some people have in more recent times.

Doing so sends a very clear message to the Catholic Church in Ireland,

What teaching in relation to gay people? Teachers hardly teach anything about heterosexual relationships, let alone homosexual relationships.

So a teacher never discuses family's in anyway, shape or form?
Sure, I believe you.

That is what the majority of parents want,

But you have no basis for this belief, what stats do you have that shows parents don't want gay family units ever discussed?

62% of Ireland clearly are welcoming of gay couples.

Nice that you'd try and wedge the "effectively" abusing children in there, but you're a long way from it.

Am I?
If I call your parents unnatural and sinful and say your parents will go to hell and the devil do you think thats respectful? Do you think a 7 year old doesn't find this upsetting?

If you want to paint a bullseye on anyone's back, it's the parents who are making the decisions for their children that you need to talk to, and tell them that they are effectively abusing their children.

I never said it was children abusing other children,
Catholic teachings are that gay people are unnatural, this sort of message towards a child who has gay parents is distasteful and upsetting to them.

Its a form of abuse to make a kid think that their parents very existence its against the wishes of an apparently loving god.

That's quite a nasty personal dig there against a person you know nothing about. Do you think it's acceptable to make nasty personal digs about people you know nothing about? You're calling for respect for a minority position and expecting people will empathise with you while you throw shìt like that in their faces? It really shouldn't come as a shock to you that people will at least turn their backs as they don't want to get hit in the face with that crap.

If you think I used personal abuse then by all means report the post,

I have concerns that you seem to have no issue with excluding and treating a group differently just because that group is below 50% (for example single mothers). That is deeply, deeply concerning if you deal with different minority groups in Ireland.

zeffabelli

I agree about shaming the parents, shame the parents, you shame the child.

SpaceTime

It seems to be a case of people thinking "it's not discrimination if its the right kind of discrimination."

South Africans were quite capable of seeing nothing wrong with the apartheid regime back in the day.

While this isn't as extreme, Ireland has been criticised very heavily by the United Nations over our lack of secular options in schooling.

We're making too many excuses and defending indefensible situations due to an inability to see our system in perspective and due to a blind, engrained cultural loyalty to the Catholic Church that still seems to see education as a nun with a big stick.

It doesn't seem to have moved on much from the era portrayed by the animation "Give up your aul Sins"

Still a lot of assumptions this is what school is about.

Irish Film Board official YouTube clip:
http://youtu.be/TxotrR3KQwU

One eyed Jack

Cabaal wrote: »

Society is out of step with Islamic teachings too, imagine...allowing women and men to work side by side and having equal rights in work, voting, education. Shocking stuff.
:rolleyes:

Yes it is, I had some of my child's friends at home there one day, all gathered around the Xbox playing Minecraft, I asked them did they want a sandwich. They all refused as it was during Ramadan. Islamic teachings are out of step with Western society too, but they seem to do alright all the same. I'm not going to report their parents to social services for starving their children.

The thing that needs to change is the catholic church, not society. Soceity has proven that it wants equality for its sisters and brothers. The church is still teaching seperation.

That's one way of looking at it I suppose. The other way is that the vast majority of people in Irish society still self-identify as Roman Catholic, even the OP did, in spite of the fact that they admitted they don't actually follow any of it. That suggests to me at least that the issue seems to be that people in society still want to identify as Roman Catholic in spite of the Church's stance on many social issues. The Hierarchy aren't going to complain (well, I suppose one of them did), but really the fact that people still want to identify as Roman Catholic in spite of the Hierarchy, and in spite of Church teachings, shows that they still choose to identify with the Church, because they want to, not because they have to.

errr yes it is, the catholic ethos is decided by the Vatican and Bishops in Ireland. The avg Joe on the street that thinks marriage equality is fine does not control the church's viewpoint on gay people.

Yes it does actually. That's why Pope Frank recently done a Pontius Pilate on the issue and said "Who am I to judge?", rather than an outright acceptance that society is out of step with the Church. The Church has always molded itself into society and it will change it's position again accordingly. This has historically been proven to be true if you look back at the history of the Catholic Church and how it has evolved in different countries.

Its great that some catholic people do have no problem with gay people, but if they don't like their local priest telling them about how unnatural gay people are then they need to tell the priest that. They need to walk out of mass etc...like some people have in more recent times.

Nah, I just told my priest shove his pamphlet up his arse, I know he's just doing his job, but it pissed me off that he didn't know me better than that when I count him among my closest confidantes and my spiritual advisor and counsellor. We get on grand most of the time though, that wasn't the first fallout we had, nor will it be the last I'm sure. I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face.

Doing so sends a very clear message to the Catholic Church in Ireland

What, walking out of mass? That doesn't do anything. The priest will still say mass. The people will still identify as Roman Catholic, they'll still have their children baptised and they'll still send their children to Roman Catholic ethos schools, and the next generation will do the same as the one before. That's not to mention how many more pies the RCC has it's fingers in in Irish society - GAA, Scouts, Hospitals, to name but a few. There's no avoiding the fcukers! :pac:

So a teacher never discuses family's in anyway, shape or form?
Sure, I believe you.

Except I never said that now did I? I said that they hardly teach anything about heterosexual relationships, let alone homosexual relationships. I'm sure they do discuss families, but in a Catholic ethos school, it shouldn't surprise you that they prefer to avoid discussion about homosexuality.

But you have no basis for this belief, what stats do you have that shows parents don't want gay family units ever discussed?

The basis for my belief is that the feedback I get from parents over 20 odd years of dealing with parents, is that they don't want their children being taught about sex and sexuality in school, and it's taken quite an amount of compromising and negotiation and countless meetings to get them to get behind even the Stay Safe program. They want their children to remain as innocent as possible, for as long as possible. It's not just gay family units they don't want discussed. They don't want anything discussed that falls outside their Waltons or Little House on the Prairie style idealism.

62% of Ireland clearly are welcoming of gay couples.

Yes, and 84% of Irish people are Roman Catholic. Statistics are wonderful, aren't they?

Am I?
If I call your parents unnatural and sinful and say your parents will go to hell and the devil do you think thats respectful? Do you think a 7 year old doesn't find this upsetting?

Of course I don't think that's respectful. Of course I think a child would find that upsetting (though I know some 7 year olds who would tell you go fcuk yourself too! :pac:), but to equate that to what is commonly understood as child abuse, well, you're reaching. I was called retarded by other children when I was 7, does that mean those children should be held accountable for child abuse?

Of course it doesn't. Perspective helps.

I never said it was children abusing other children,
Catholic teachings are that gay people are unnatural, this sort of message towards a child who has gay parents is distasteful and upsetting to them.

No, I meant that you would have to hold parents accountable for abusing their own children, and that's why I suggested that sort of accusation against a parent could land you in A&E. Parents are the greatest influence on their children more than anything they pick up in school, more than anything they're ever taught in school, no matter what the ethos of the school, and that's why in an ET school, when a teacher holds up a Charlie Hebdo mag and tells the children discuss it, it's probably best they remember beforehand that there are Muslim children in the class who find depictions of their Prophet upsetting. I personally find any sort of thoughtless behavior from adults towards children unacceptable, but I wouldn't immediately call it child abuse. It would take a hell of a lot more than that before I'd be reaching for my moral outrage pitchfork.

Its a form of abuse to make a kid think that their parents very existence its against the wishes of an apparently loving god.

Perhaps you should be speaking to the parents who choose to put their children in for that then because the alternative is too inconvenient for them.

If you think I used personal abuse then by all means report the post

I'm not actually that bothered tbh. I said it directly to you and you choose not to acknowledge it. It didn't bother me enough to actually want to escalate beyond that as I don't think it warrants sanction. It was nasty, and pointing that out was intended to have you realise that you are responsible for some people's attitudes towards you as you get back what you put out there.

I have concerns that you seem to have no issue with excluding and treating a group differently just because that group is below 50% (for example single mothers). That is deeply, deeply concerning if you deal with different minority groups in Ireland.

As it happens I do deal with many different minority groups in Irish society, and I have worked for decades in various voluntary capacities mainly in mentorship and leadership roles with many marginalised and largely ignored groups in Irish society, and I do treat them differently, because they have different needs to other groups, and in order for them to be included in society, they have a responsibility to contribute to that society. Many of them don't recognise this responsibility until it's pointed out to them, and even then many of them struggle with the concept.

If that's deeply concerning for you, then I suggest you try it some time, because the feedback I get is that people are far happier and fare far better for themselves when they feel they are contributing to society and seen as equal by that standard, than those people who are always on the take and feel that society owes them something and they'll sit on their hands and scream until they get it. That may have worked with their parents when they were a child, but other adults aren't going to make the same allowances their parents did.

LegacyUser

One-eyed Jack, thank you for your posts.

I am actually deeply concerned at some of what I've read on this thread. I have a small child, we are in an area that has ET and Catholic schools. And to be quite honest, I don't want my child to be in a class of kids whose parents are going around saying and believing some of what's been written here, either in the ET or the Catholic schools, because kids take their cues from their parents on pretty much everything. It's all very well to send your child to a school that is inclusive etc, but then have your child reciting what their parents have been saying about the Catholic church or various other religions (or lack thereof) is pretty awful, especially if the opinions are anything like some of what is posted here.

I am Catholic. I identify as Catholic. I'm not a very good Catholic, in that I'm not at Mass every single Sunday of the year, and I don't necessarily believe that Adam and Eve existed or that the world was created in 7 days. But what I do believe in is the ethos of the Catholic church. The sense of community, the gathering of the community for important events, and the teaching that life is not all about "me". That there are other people in the world and that you have to consider other people, and that you, the individual, are not actually the centre of the entire universe.

Personally, I couldn't give a s&*t what people believe in terms of religion. We are so closed sighted in this country that we can't actually see past the Catholic church. We totally ignore the fact that religion exists all over the world, in many different forms, but that it's general fundamental teachings are the same. And that's ok. We become wonderfully tolerant when in Buddhist temples in Asia, or when making allowances for Muslims in our country, but for some reason, mention that you are Catholic and you are practically a criminal. As far as I'm concerned you can worship monkeys if you like, just don't shove it down my throat.

If you want a non-Catholic school in your area, go set one up. It's just that simple at this stage. Plenty of places around the country have managed it. And if there are so many people that have such an issue with being forced into a Catholic school, then you will manage to set up another school, and over time, it will sort itself out. If there aren't, then I guess you're going to have to realise that maybe most of the people around you are content enough with the Catholic ethos (despite their complaining), and that you will have to find a way to work with the school on alternative arrangements - the school that, despite all the moaning, have been quite tolerant and inclusive with dealing with the many parental demands that exist nowadays.

No matter what your beliefs are, you force them on your child. If you don't identify with a religion, you force that on your child. Stop thinking you're doing them some massive favour by not giving them a religion. It's no more or less of a choice than baptising them is. It's just a choice you make a parent, and your child lives with it, end of.

Teachers are NOT responsible for removing the Church from the schools. They are responsible for being teachers (among many other roles they have during the day) but they are just not responsible for the Church being removed from the school and to expect them to be is ridiculous. Education is their primary tenet, religion happens to be a part of education, and for the teacher, that's about the extent of it.

My own feeling is that I am quite happy for the Church to be removed from the school system, but I fully appreciate that it cannot and will not happen overnight, for many many reasons - mainly social and financial. What I am not happy about is the number of people going around vilifying parents who DO want their kids in a religious school, and considering themselves educational experts just because they have been to school themselves. In a country like Ireland, the separation of Church and State will not happen overnight, and we need to suck it up and accept it. One of the ways of working on the separation is movements like Educate Together, to actually give people a choice. In the meantime, a bit of tolerance towards those who are ok with having their kids in the old system wouldn't go amiss, and as an alternative to having your kids "indoctrinated", try working with the school to see what other options there are for classes like religion. And the world won't actaully end if you kid ends up being able to say a couple of prayers and sing a few hymns - you are more likely to be bothered about it than they are.

SpaceTime

This isn't primarily about hymns. It's about a situation where non Catholic kids are given a negative weighting and deprioritised to put them at the bottom of the list in enrolment policies and about a public education system that seems unwilling to provide reasonable accommodation for separating religion from daily teaching.

Just move the religion classes to the end of the day so opting out is simple and drop the weaving in prayers through the day stuff and it might be a start!

Well at present if you're not catholic you're basically a second class citizen in what is supposed to be a public education system.

What we have in Ireland is a weird situation where there isn't really a public education system. Instead you've a publicly funded private education system which is 92% Catholic and 98% religious at present.

Schools continue to operate enrolment policies that allow them to prioritise Catholic children while potentially excluding non Catholic children and actually really quite seriously disadvantaging children of non religious families who, in Irish law seem to have no rights to education at all at present as all schools are supposed to be religious by law and by rule 68.

As an Irish citizen and a tax payer, I'm not sure why I'm paying tax to fund a system that excludes me and my family from using it.

If you want a private catholic school that priorities Catholic enrolment - pay for it yourself! It'll cost you about €10,000 to €14,000 a year per child as that's what it realistically costs to pay for staff and overheads in the fully private schools that receive no funding at all.

I don't think it's unreasonable or anti religious to expect publically funded facilities to be open to the public! All of the public, not just a majority group.

What you have at the moment is a state funded religion and a school system that's excluding children based on their family background or even coercing people to convert or conform to Catholicism.

In a supposedly modern democracy that goes around ranting about republicanism (without knowing what it means) that is totally unacceptable and even in the medium term, unsustainable.

This is sleep walking into ghettoisation of society.