Religion in junior infants

ThisRegard

PearlJ wrote: »

I find the teaching of religion to small children very frightening to be honest.

My child doesn't do religion in school so I wouldn't have had any experience of it, but I attended my nephews communion and I was completely astounded with how children are completely brain washed by religion. From the music and how the wording is structured in the songs and prayers and how they recite it like robots was absolutely terrifying to hear small children do.

A tad over the top. Rhyme and recursion is practically how kids learn everything, not just religion.

Millions of us have gone through this and we're all fine.

purplecow1977

SpaceTime wrote: »

All I'm saying is the *average* educator here is probably a lot more religiously influenced and conservative than the majority of the population which may well explain the slow pace of change.

I'm not really sure about this.

I think many, most even, of us would prefer the freedom to teach about various faiths (or none). Maybe when we've won the pupil/teacher ratio battle removing religion can be the next battle!

eviltwin

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I mentioned it in brief with my students around the referendum after they brought up the topic (I think it was on News 2Day) and I commented that we can't help who we fall in love with. They wanted to clarify what the referendum was, and I told them. They shrugged and continued with their lunch.

Children are very accepting.

It's generally their parents views and opinions that cause otherwise.

You have to admit that's at odds with the church's view. What is the position there? Could a teacher get in trouble for going against official church teaching on an issue? Are there any guidelines for dealing with sensitive issues like that?

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

Catholic schools aren't allowed.teach Catholic doctrine? That's news to me.

We have other curricula to teach (SPHE!) and teaching that homosexual people are going to burn in hell would soon get you into very hot water, irrespective of any Catholic ethos.

Don't pretend to think otherwise.

Catholic ethos or not, it is not followed to the extreme letter of the law in schools otherwise many teachers would be sacked for having sex before marriage, or living with their partners, or having children out of marriage, or divorcing, or being gay, or not attending weekly Mass.

purplecow1977

eviltwin wrote: »

You have to admit that's at odds with the church's view. What is the position there? Could a teacher get in trouble for going against official church teaching on an issue? Are there any guidelines for dealing with sensitive issues like that?

Is it? Didn't several priests come out and support the referendum?

Not sure of the position, I didn't bring the topic up in class but would always try to explain things as best as I could to the children I teach and answer any questions they have. (I'll draw the line at masturbation though as that's outside my remit! and a conversation their mammy or daddy would hate to miss out on!!!)

Not sure there are any guidelines, but I always try to respond appropriately and sensitively to such issues.

I'd imagine other teachers may just say 'Ask your mum'!

I don't force anything down anyone's throat (except Irish verbs! but there's probably some anti- Irish language people on here too to hunt me out for that!)

purplecow1977

ThisRegard wrote: »

A tad over the top. Rhyme and recursion is practically how kids learn everything, not just religion.

Millions of us have gone through this and we're all fine
fine.

Are you sure about that?! :rolleyes:

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

We have other curricula to teach (SPHE!) and teaching that homosexual people are going to burn in hell would soon get you into very hot water, irrespective of any Catholic ethos.

Don't pretend to think otherwise.

Catholic ethos or not, it is not followed to the extreme letter of the law in schools otherwise many teachers would be sacked for having sex before marriage, or living with their partners, or having children out of marriage, or divorcing, or being gay, or not attending weekly Mass.

So why all the assurances during the marriage equality debates that schools could continue to follow Catholic teaching on marriage if that was their ethos?

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

So why all the assurances during the marriage equality debates that schools could continue to follow Catholic teaching on marriage if that was their ethos?

You know what, I think it's just easier if I tell you I DO teach my students they'll go to HELL if they don't go to Mass or say their prayers before bedtime or if they're gay. I can't explain any more!

eviltwin

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Is it? Didn't several priests come out and support the referendum?

Not sure of the position, I didn't bring the topic up in class but would always try to explain things as best as I could to the children I teach and answer any questions they have. (I'll draw the line at masturbation though as that's outside my remit! and a conversation their mammy or daddy would hate to miss out on!!!)

Not sure there are any guidelines, but I always try to respond appropriately and sensitively to such issues.

I'd imagine other teachers may just say 'Ask your mum'!

I don't force anything down anyone's throat (except Irish verbs! but there's probably some anti- Irish language people on here too to hunt me out for that!)

Those priests were quickly shot down by their superiors. I don't think there are many teachers who were like the ones I was taught by and I'm sure you handle the awkward questions well but the Catholic religion has very specific issues with women and gay people. Personally I choose not to be involved in an organisation like that. It's not being disrespectful to those who do to want an alternative to that for my children.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

You know what, I think it's just easier if I tell you I DO teach my students they'll go to HELL if they don't go to Mass or say their prayers before bedtime or if they're gay. I can't explain any more!

I'm just trying to understand how you teach Catholic doctrine in your classroom. And how that tarries with the official line taken by the Catholic church on many social issues. And whether official doctrine clashes with what teachers teach.

Neyite

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I'm not really sure about this.

I think many, most even, of us would prefer the freedom to teach about various faiths (or none). Maybe when we've won the pupil/teacher ratio battle removing religion can be the next battle!

I think that's what most parents want too.

Though I'm glad to hear that you personally don't spend much time on Religion and are quite secular in your teaching about social issues that are at odds with the RCC, surely this must be something that would piss off another parent who chose the school because they are devout, practising Catholics and wanted their child to get a religious education so enrolled them in a catholic school?

There should be a set standard, not left up to the teacher's personal beliefs - you don't force it down the children's throats but the next teacher might. You might foster tolerance and inclusion in your classroom but the next teacher might force the protestant child to stand up and recite the Hail Mary at the beginning of every class and humiliate her. (happened a girl in my secondary history class)

I like your idea of an after-school religion class. But this again could backfire in that you'd run the risk of non-believer parents enrolling their child in the religion class as the earlier school pickup time would be too inconvenient to juggle with work.

ash23

Two Sheds wrote: »

Treating the Bible as some sort of history book or science book and then attempting to challenge it with history or science, is to miss the entire point and to mislead your child.

It's a spiritual book. If you don't know what that means then how can you possibly be fair to your child?

Instead of learning to think for themselves, many children simply inherit their parents' religious hangups.

You totally missed my point. The bible stories are taught as fact. As a parent it's up to me to explain to my child the difference between fact and fiction. Religion is not taught as a spiritual thing in irish schools. Children are told god created the world. Unless I correct my child, she will believe that as fact and she would be wrong. Same with adam and eve and evolution.
If schools didn't treat the bible as fact then I wouldn't have to undo what is being taught by using ACTUAL scientific and historic fact.

ash23

lazygal wrote: »

I'm just trying to understand how you teach Catholic doctrine in your classroom. And how that tarries with the official line taken by the Catholic church on many social issues. And whether official doctrine clashes with what teachers teach.

When the marriage equality referendum was coming up, the kids were prohibited from discussing it in school. The school cant say they're pro because it's a Catholic school. They can't say they're against because they have to be equal......so they choose (in my experience) to just avoid any awkward clashes

Neyite

ash23 wrote: »

When the marriage equality referendum was coming up, the kids were prohibited from discussing it in school. The school cant say they're pro because it's a Catholic school. They can't say they're against because they have to be equal......so they choose (in my experience) to just avoid any awkward clashes

Ah. Like the '92 Abortion referendum in my school so. The X case was verboten to be discussed in Religion.

Glad to see things have changed in 23 years then. :rolleyes:

purplecow1977

ash23 wrote: »

You totally missed my point. The bible stories are taught as fact. As a parent it's up to me to explain to my child the difference between fact and fiction. Religion is not taught as a spiritual thing in irish schools. Children are told god created the world. Unless I correct my child, she will believe that as fact and she would be wrong. Same with adam and eve and evolution.
If schools didn't treat the bible as fact then I wouldn't have to undo what is being taught by using ACTUAL scientific and historic fact.

No, they really are not.

For example, Jesus changing the loaves and fishes to feed the village.

The message in that is to share what you can, give what you can.

lazygal

ash23 wrote: »

When the marriage equality referendum was coming up, the kids were prohibited from discussing it in school. The school cant say they're pro because it's a Catholic school. They can't say they're against because they have to be equal......so they choose (in my experience) to just avoid any awkward clashes

That's not very progressive though, telling children they can't discuss something. Sounds quite controlling.

purplecow1977

Neyite wrote: »

I think that's what most parents want too.

Though I'm glad to hear that you personally don't spend much time on Religion and are quite secular in your teaching about social issues that are at odds with the RCC, surely this must be something that would piss off another parent who chose the school because they are devout, practising Catholics and wanted their child to get a religious education so enrolled them in a catholic school?

There should be a set standard, not left up to the teacher's personal beliefs - you don't force it down the children's throats but the next teacher might. You might foster tolerance and inclusion in your classroom but the next teacher might force the protestant child to stand up and recite the Hail Mary at the beginning of every class and humiliate her. (happened a girl in my secondary history class)

I like your idea of an after-school religion class. But this again could backfire in that you'd run the risk of non-believer parents enrolling their child in the religion class as the earlier school pickup time would be too inconvenient to juggle with work.

It doesn't really backfire. IF they're enroled, it's assumed they want to be there & are expected to participate etc. It would also give other faiths an opportunity to organise someone to come and do a similar half our lesson on their respective religions.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

No, they really are not.

For example, Jesus changing the loaves and fishes to feed the village.

The message in that is to share what you can, give what you can.

So.you'd tell.the children this never really happened so disregard the details? If that's the approach then you'd be able to say Jesus never existed, he was a myth.

My brother got in big trouble for asking about that story and saying it couldn't have been possible.

purplecow1977

ash23 wrote: »

When the marriage equality referendum was coming up, the kids were prohibited from discussing it in school. The school cant say they're pro because it's a Catholic school. They can't say they're against because they have to be equal......so they choose (in my experience) to just avoid any awkward clashes

What kids were prohibited from discussing it in school?

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

So.you'd tell.the children this never really happened so disregard the details? If that's the approach then you'd be able to say Jesus never existed, he was a myth.

My brother got in big trouble for asking about that story and saying it couldn't have been possible.

Which is understandably why you feel so opposed to it in schools now.

What I tell them in response to the Bible is that because it all happened so long ago (nothing happened I hear you say!) that we don't know what parts are true and what parts are not true, but that the message is important. And the message of sharing and giving to the poor/less fortunate etc never really changes.

Wright

harr wrote: »

Hi
Not looking to start a religious debate ,but what are people's views on teaching religion to kids so young .
Our little lad is starting school in September and got his books today and the religion book is fairly full on...I was kind of shocked ...I don't mind teaching children about all religions and the history of religion .
We are Catholic but not practising ,the school he is attending is the only option for us and I don't want to Single him out by getting him to sit out religion .
There is no mention of any other religion in his books at all...
Would like to hear people's view and the views from other parents who's children are in school...
Thanks

Ireland is stuck a few decades in the past you see.

Very unfair on families of a different faith that have their kids in school here. Schools should be 100% secular.

One eyed Jack

lazygal wrote: »

Catholic schools aren't allowed.teach Catholic doctrine? That's news to me.

It shouldn't be news to you tbh. It's publicly available information on the internet -

ANTI-BULLYING PROCEDURES FOR PRIMARY AND POST-PRIMARY SCHOOLS

Guidelines on Relationships and Sexuality Education

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Which is understandably why you feel so opposed to it in schools now.

What I tell them in response to the Bible is that because it all happened so long ago (nothing happened I hear you say!) that we don't know what parts are true and what parts are not true, but that the message is important. And the message of sharing and giving to the poor/less fortunate etc never really changes.

You can share all those messages without a 2000 year old book of questionable origins. I'm managing to teach my children to share without resorting to myths about things that aren't possible.

lazygal

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It shouldn't be. It's publicly available information on the internet -

ANTI-BULLYING PROCEDURES FOR PRIMARY AND POST-PRIMARY SCHOOLS

Guidelines on Relationships and Sexuality Education

So all the fuss about Catholic schools being able to continue to.teach the Catholic view on marriage and homosexuality during the marriage equality debates was a waste of time, they can be compelled to teach things contrary to doctrine.

two wheels good

Akrasia wrote: »

My son just finished juniors this year and they had to do some 'sharing circle' as part of religion 'education' that he just refused to do because he thought it was stupid

We told his teacher that we're not catholic and he doesn't have to do any religious classes if he doesn't want to. We don't mind him learning songs or doing plays or any of that. We don't even mind him learning the prayers, but we don't want him to be examined on them or forced to participate in anything religious that he doesn't want to do.

On Ash Wednesday he got really upset when a teacher made him get the ash on his forehead when he didn't want it.

Its just a matter of talking to the teacher and hoping that she'll respect your and your child's wishes.

What!? Ash Weds. ashes distributed to 7-8 years old! Is that standard practice in primary schools?

How on earth could that even be explained to a child - and to what purpose. BLoody ridiculous!

(I won't even bother to comment on forcing them on the child against his wishes.)

One eyed Jack

lazygal wrote: »

So all the fuss about Catholic schools being able to continue to.teach the Catholic view on marriage and homosexuality during the marriage equality debates was a waste of time, they can be compelled to teach things contrary to doctrine.

Essentially, yes.

EDIT: On both counts.

ash23

purplecow1977 wrote: »

No, they really are not.

For example, Jesus changing the loaves and fishes to feed the village.

The message in that is to share what you can, give what you can.

What about creationism? Because my child was taught that as fact about 5 years ago.

ash23

purplecow1977 wrote: »

What kids were prohibited from discussing it in school?

My child and her friends. Someone brought it up in class after a poster went up outside the school and the teacher said they weren't going to discuss it in class and changed the subject.
They discussed it in the yard and on the bus.

One eyed Jack

Neyite wrote: »

Ah. Like the '92 Abortion referendum in my school so. The X case was verboten to be discussed in Religion.

Glad to see things have changed in 23 years then. :rolleyes:

It kick started a fairly lively discussion in my religion class anyway. Like a lot of issues mentioned here, they're very specific examples that were particular to those students in those schools at that time. I was fortunate in that though I attended a CBS, we had a lay teacher for religion and in third year ('92), we were discussing issues such as sexuality, abortion, euthanasia and so on. There wasn't anything was off limits.

Wright

purplecow1977 wrote: »

No, they really are not.

For example, Jesus changing the loaves and fishes to feed the village.

The message in that is to share what you can, give what you can.

Yes they really are. All of Jesus' escapades are treated as 100% fact, this thread your first experience with Catholisism?