Proposed sheep tagging changes.

paddysdream

Anyone here with any opinions re. the proposed changes to the present sheep tagging system or have been to any of the IFA meetings?

From reading the papers it looks like EID is looking more likely for at least mart lambs,whatever about factory ones.
Can't see any real benefits for farmers ,only an extra cost for a scanner/wand and an extra euro or so per tag,esp if you are sending all or most of your lambs direct for slaughter.

From a management point of view its of no benefit either as 99% of lambs are only tagged on day of sale.
The vast majority of breeding sheep should be EID tagged at this stage but the TAMS grant for the tag reader was dropped due to the very poor take up so I suppose that shows the interest in electronic reading and recording.
Suppose the age profile of sheep farmers may account for some of this.

Nekarsulm

Handy for marts, and for factories if it were introduced (forced into use).
Otherwise main beneficiary would be the tag companies. Probably 90% of lambs only have a tag for the last 24 hours of their life.

rangler1

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Handy for marts, and for factories if it were introduced (forced into use).
Otherwise main beneficiary would be the tag companies. Probably 90% of lambs only have a tag for the last 24 hours of their life.

A farmer that buys a lot of store lambs would probably agree with it, They have to write down up to 15 nos for every lamb on the dispatch docket when they're selling...imagine trying to do a lot of lambs on a wet day

ganmo

why would we put a euro on a lambs ear for the factory to cut it off hours later?

There are some store lamb sellers that do put etags in to try and get a few more bob from the

davidk1394

The procurement manager in Camolin. Was talking to a group of us about the advantages about eid tagging. How it is easier traced and this and how it would save the factory money. I put up my hand and asked him "with the money your saving with the eid tags will this be passed onto the farmer. A flexitag for our quick tagger is 9c compared to €1 for an eid tag. We spend €100 a year on flexi tags if we used eid tags it would be a €1000. Who's going to pay the €900 gap. Certainly not the factories ??" I got no answer

ganmo

davidk1394 wrote: »

The procurement manager in Camolin. Was talking to a group of us about the advantages about eid tagging. How it is easier traced and this and how it would save the factory money. I put up my hand and asked him "with the money your saving with the eid tags will this be passed onto the farmer. A flexitag for our quick tagger is 9c compared to €1 for an eid tag. We spend €100 a year on flexi tags if we used eid tags it would be a €1000. Who's going to pay the €900 gap. Certainly not the factories ??" I got no answer

exactly!

paddysdream

davidk1394 wrote: »

The procurement manager in Camolin. Was talking to a group of us about the advantages about eid tagging. How it is easier traced and this and how it would save the factory money. I put up my hand and asked him "with the money your saving with the eid tags will this be passed onto the farmer. A flexitag for our quick tagger is 9c compared to €1 for an eid tag. We spend €100 a year on flexi tags if we used eid tags it would be a €1000. Who's going to pay the €900 gap. Certainly not the factories ??" I got no answer

Same position here.Can't see how having what's just a more expensive version of the same thing in a lamb's ear will "increase tracability"
If a sheep loses a tag if hardly matters which type it is as the end result is the same ie a sheep with no tag.
As traceability etc is a religion with certain sectors(Bord Bia ,Dept etc and of course factories(when it suits them!)they are using this line to push a change that will suit factories (less labour on the line to read tags)marts(same idea) Dept(fig leaf to the god of traceability).
In other words sheep farmers will carry the cost whilst others will see any benefits that MAY come.
Will any factory pay extra for EID tagged lambs?If it was of such a benefit would they not be actively looking for them or even supporting the cost?
What we have here in Ireland at the moment is sufficent for Eu etc regulations despite what some people might try to say.Just because the UK pushed through EID for their own flocks does it means we have to blindly follow.
Traceability and all that goes out the window when price comes into the equation.

rangler1

paddysdream wrote: »

Same position here.Can't see how having what's just a more expensive version of the same thing in a lamb's ear will "increase tracability"
If a sheep loses a tag if hardly matters which type it is as the end result is the same ie a sheep with no tag.
As traceability etc is a religion with certain sectors(Bord Bia ,Dept etc and of course factories(when it suits them!)they are using this line to push a change that will suit factories (less labour on the line to read tags)marts(same idea) Dept(fig leaf to the god of traceability).
In other words sheep farmers will carry the cost whilst others will see any benefits that MAY come.
Will any factory pay extra for EID tagged lambs?If it was of such a benefit would they not be actively looking for them or even supporting the cost?
What we have here in Ireland at the moment is sufficent for Eu etc regulations despite what some people might try to say.Just because the UK pushed through EID for their own flocks does it means we have to blindly follow.
Traceability and all that goes out the window when price comes into the equation.

Traceability turns a bit iffy when guys are slaughtering bought in lambs after Christmas,
Thinking of going all EID here, weigh every lamb here once a mth, it'd really speed up the job, sounds a lot of work but they really fly into the scales and its like the dairy farmers milk tank....it doesn't be long telling you there's something amiss.
Had bord bia here for half a day getting informed on the farm management advantages of EID

ganmo

How much is one of them scanners?

That's after you have an electronic scales and the rest of the set up

rangler1

ganmo wrote: »

How much is one of them scanners?

That's after you have an electronic scales and the rest of the set up

600 - 1000, we bought one secondhand, which took some of the harm out of it

ganmo

rangler1 wrote: »

600 - 1000, we bought one secondhand, which took some of the harm out of it

That the one that plugs into the yellow box?

Bleating Lamb

With all due respect it is another example of costs to the farmer for the sake of it.As outlined by previous posters it will NOT increase traceability in any realistic way yet will increase costs on farmer tenfold!

Was talking to a man with fair knowledge of what factory hierarchy think of it.
They are delighted as it will mean less staff needed to read tags etc.....and the head with the dear tag will still come off just the same!
But same man said its def on way in....unless IFA,ICMSA etc put up a good well prepared fight.

Nekarsulm

Funny how loads of horses were chipped, and factories couldn't tell the difference between them and cows.

Green farmer

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Cannt see any benefit to it other then the tag makers having a surge in turnover, factories saving a small bit of labour and some department officials having something fancy to write on their cv. Yes might assist the top few percent of proactive sheep farmers with large flocks from a management point of view, but for the average old boy or part-time farmer with 40-50 ewes ? Lambs here get tagged in trailer going out the gate.

grassroot1

There are pros and cons to the argument however if the factories want EID they should pay a bonus of at least 50 cent a lamb for EID tagged sheep and all EID tagged sheep kill data must be available to Sheep Ireland

Farrell

grassroot1 wrote: »

There are pros and cons to the argument however if the factories want EID they should pay a bonus of at least 50 cent a lamb for EID tagged sheep and all EID tagged sheep kill data must be available to Sheep Ireland

Sadly they'll probably cut for non-EID.
Tags are quite dear, is there anything that can done to reduce the cost?
Started using the EID with cattle tags, the vets hand-held couldn't read them, waste of money so

Willfarman

The Eid tags are the way forward. However individually numbering every sheep serves no purpose really. A simple eid tag with the farmers flock number should suffice Imo.

Farrell

Willfarman wrote: »

The Eid tags are the way forward. However individually numbering every sheep serves no purpose really. A simple eid tag with the farmers flock number should suffice Imo.

I wonder if some info could be stored on the chip, that when you use the reader you can get additional information.
E.g Dam/Sire

Willfarman

Farrell wrote: »

I wonder if some info could be stored on the chip, that when you use the reader you can get additional information.
E.g Dam/Sire

For real traceability and in order for farmers to have any chance of keeping their numbers and records accurate straight the motto needs to be k.i.s.s.


Keep it simple stupid! :cool:

ganmo

Farrell wrote: »

I wonder if some info could be stored on the chip, that when you use the reader you can get additional information.
E.g Dam/Sire

in theory yes, but you would need to order the tag for each animal and then put the right tag in the right animal. much simpler to get a hand help thingy and link the dam & sire on that

roosky

The idea of a farmer putting a tag in a lamb to let a factory cut it out is mental..........not because its a waste of money but because it such a wasted opportunity .......bare with me !

If the EID was brought in for all sheep I think it would be a serious job.... I know we will have a extra cost but the benefits are huge if we use them.

If we EID lambs we need to do it day one, and link them to the mothers eid, you then have a date of birth , a estimated birth weight and you can mark the ewe for culling or mark her for being good and keep her ewe lambs.

Run all your fit lambs into a lorry for the factory they run up the chute by a scanner and they are all now on the factory's records, no need for a dispatch document ......also your lamb is your lamb there is less room for human error.

The majority of us have smart phones which can download all the needed software.

Its like everything its good value if you use all its uses.

It should be up to the farmer if he wants to do it at first though as in I would EID all my lambs if teh factorys/marts were set up to cater for me

roosky

Willfarman wrote: »

The Eid tags are the way forward. However individually numbering every sheep serves no purpose really. A simple eid tag with the farmers flock number should suffice Imo.

Individual tags can give you individual growth rates, mothers information, and allow you to keep your best replacements.

Green farmer

There are benefits, but in reality most lambs are only tagged going out gate. If you tag at birth, I'd imagine they'd be big aul tag on a little lamb. In addition another thing to be factored is , the percentage of lambs that don't make it past the first few weeks of birth. I'm guessing 10%+ on some farms. Disappearing overnight to the fox in particular. You'd be trying to explain to department why you have so many missing tags.

ganmo

There are plenty of lads that use their own management tags using their own paper recording methods and still only put dept tags in them going out the gate.

Management tags 5c ?
eid still a euro

Username John

ganmo wrote: »

There are plenty of lads that use their own management tags using their own paper recording methods and still only put dept tags in them going out the gate.

Management tags 5c ?
eid still a euro

I do some of this - all lambs get this type of tag
http://www.stockhealth.ie/sheep-management-tags-plain
So I can tie poor lambs to ewes, etc. individual lamb performance, that kinda thing...

I like the idea of EID tags - and I agree with roosky in a way - they are very useful if you use them to their potential. But in my head, their full potential means an automated system - and I don't think I 'll be getting one I those for a while

As ganmo said above, I can do the same with management tags at a fraction of the price...

Edit : I do see a place for them with store lambs tho, when lambs will be going through at least two farms, this makes some bit of sense. I know lads won't like to hear that tho...

paddysdream

roosky wrote: »

The idea of a farmer putting a tag in a lamb to let a factory cut it out is mental..........not because its a waste of money but because it such a wasted opportunity .......bare with me !

If the EID was brought in for all sheep I think it would be a serious job.... I know we will have a extra cost but the benefits are huge if we use them.

If we EID lambs we need to do it day one, and link them to the mothers eid, you then have a date of birth , a estimated birth weight and you can mark the ewe for culling or mark her for being good and keep her ewe lambs.

Run all your fit lambs into a lorry for the factory they run up the chute by a scanner and they are all now on the factory's records, no need for a dispatch document ......also your lamb is your lamb there is less room for human error.

The majority of us have smart phones which can download all the needed software.

Its like everything its good value if you use all its uses.

It should be up to the farmer if he wants to do it at first though as in I would EID all my lambs if teh factorys/marts were set up to cater for me

See a few problems with your ideas!

Firstly imagine tagging all your lambs at birth.Easy enough if you have 5 or 10 lambing a day but here could have 60 to 80 at peak.The idea of tagging those and matching them to their birth mother,who they may never even be put on or at times you cannot be 100% certain which ewe owns which lamb.Not much point in keeping a ewe lamb if its reared by another ewe as its own mother dies or has very little milk etc.

What about the lambs that lose the tags or God forbid die?Know I would have a fair few lost between birth and weaning.For example on the last Teagasc farm walk I think he lost approx 300 lambs between birth and weaning.Know the bad weather etc played a part and those losses would be untypical but even so ,thats a lot of 1 euro plus tags and a lot of knackery dockets to cover self same tags.

If you think the Dept. will get rid of their much loved paperwork and cross checking then grand but they seem to be promising a reduction in paper work not its abolition.
If you think factories will cover any of the proposed costs then rather you than me.They see scope for cost savings and nothing else.EID has no bearing on traceability whatsoever.
Same with the marts;reduction in staff workload for a once off cost to them.

Smartphone?Don't have one and looking at the age profile of sheep farmers would think I would be in a rather large minority if not a majority.Grand things but a 600 euro smartphone aint ideal to be running around sheep on a wet December night as you load 50 lambs into a trailer from a muddy pen with poor lights.
Nearly all lambs are tagged only as they leave the farm so nobody really has to read their own lambs as you just tag them in sequence and fill in the dispatch docket.

I would eid all my lambs if the factories/marts were prepared to cover the cost as its of no real benefit to me but its a major cost saving to them.

Willfarman

The individual numbers for sheep is a farce Imo. We should never have let it start. An individual flock number and let it be Eid is what should have happened. The price of the tags would fall as a result.

paddysdream

Willfarman wrote: »

The individual numbers for sheep is a farce Imo. We should never have let it start. An individual flock number and let it be Eid is what should have happened. The price of the tags would fall as a result.

Not really as the vast majority of the cost of an eid tag is the chip.Think(stand to be corrected)its about 1 euro for the chip bit and 20 to 30 cents for all the plastic.
Has the UK an individual tag no. system or flock number.Anyone know what the situation is in other EU countries?
We seem to be good europeans a lot of the time,enforcing over and above what is actually required.

Willfarman

paddysdream wrote: »

Not really as the vast majority of the cost of an eid tag is the chip.Think(stand to be corrected)its about 1 euro for the chip bit and 20 to 30 cents for all the plastic.
Has the UK an individual tag no. system or flock number.Anyone know what the situation is in other EU countries?
We seem to be good europeans a lot of the time,enforcing over and above what is actually required.

OuR civil servants do that interpretation for us. With prompting from vested interests I suspect!

Green farmer

Could stand corrected but , I think we're already meeting all eu regulations and standards without electronic tagging. What additional info does an electronic tag have that a mart slaughter did doesn't ?

rangler1

Green farmer wrote: »

Could stand corrected but , I think we're already meeting all eu regulations and standards without electronic tagging. What additional info does an electronic tag have that a mart slaughter did doesn't ?

As I said before that once hoggets start to be killed, the traceability gets a bit iffy, the killing line is moving too fast for the factory to record manually 15 nos for every lamb, so they just give up recording properly. It's ironic that there's no compulsion on them to record them properly
The department propose that lambs going straight from farm of birth to slaughter don't really need eid tag ,especially before Christmas.
As far as I know the Uk is all eid and the Northern Ireland is individual EID tags, funnily enough they've done it so they can sell their lambs down here.
I wouldn't be expecting the factory to pay for EID, they might say they are but they'll have dropped the lamb price by ten cents a kilo beforehand.....always remember the sheep pay for everything

paddysdream

rangler1 wrote: »

As I said before that once hoggets start to be killed, the traceability gets a bit iffy, the killing line is moving too fast for the factory to record manually 15 nos for every lamb, so they just give up recording properly. It's ironic that there's no compulsion on them to record them properly
The department propose that lambs going straight from farm of birth to slaughter don't really need eid tag ,especially before Christmas.
As far as I know the Uk is all eid and the Northern Ireland is individual EID tags, funnily enough they've done it so they can sell their lambs down here.
I wouldn't be expecting the factory to pay for EID, they might say they are but they'll have dropped the lamb price by ten cents a kilo beforehand.....always remember the sheep pay for everything

Very simple solution to that traceability problem for the factories.
Let them eid tag the lambs themselves in the lairage and correlate that tag with the farmers tag.Very simple and the processor can then scan all the tags.No problems with human error there .
One of the Dept. proposals is to allow all lambs sent direct from farm of origon to slaughter to be allowed a tip tag but under their other proposals all sheep will need full eid by at least 9 months.

orm0nd

Willfarman wrote: »

The individual numbers for sheep is a farce Imo. We should never have let it start. An individual flock number and let it be Eid is what should have happened. The price of the tags would fall as a result.

the IFA are mostly to blame for this , roll back to 01 when tagging was been introduced IFA were strongly opposing any sort of tagging for sheep

then F&M outbreak with a certain Mr. W. importing lambs from scotland through NI & into southern plants.

marts were suspended & we had to accept any form of tags we got

rangler1

paddysdream wrote: »

Very simple solution to that traceability problem for the factories.
Let them eid tag the lambs themselves in the lairage and correlate that tag with the farmers tag.Very simple and the processor can then scan all the tags.No problems with human error there .
One of the Dept. proposals is to allow all lambs sent direct from farm of origon to slaughter to be allowed a tip tag but under their other proposals all sheep will need full eid by at least 9 months.

Sheep will still have to pay for the tags plus the cost of the extra labour to put them in and correlate them,
That'd definitely cost more than 10c/kg

Willfarman

Are the chips cheaper if they all have the same number encoded?

paddysdream

Willfarman wrote: »

Are the chips cheaper if they all have the same number encoded?

Couldn't imagine they would be.

gazahayes

What happens to the eid tags on the killing line surely the chips can be reused again?

Nekarsulm

Chips only cost pennies. All it has to do is "reflect" it's number when it gets a pulse from a reader.
FFS, Lidl are putting similar into €2 packets of mince to make sure you don't swipe them.

paddysdream

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Chips only cost pennies. All it has to do is "reflect" it's number when it gets a pulse from a reader.
FFS, Lidl are putting similar into €2 packets of mince to make sure you don't swipe them.

Yes, but do packets of mince run around outside in the Irish weather for 4 or 5 years?
Similar but not the same.

Username John

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Chips only cost pennies. All it has to do is "reflect" it's number when it gets a pulse from a reader.
FFS, Lidl are putting similar into €2 packets of mince to make sure you don't swipe them.

I wonder given the fact the chips have to written with specific numbers as well add to the cost?
I would imagine mice just needs a generic chip, whereas each EID needs the inidividual number.

Green farmer

. I was just thinking about store lambs. You bring out the runts and sell them as stores at €40 a head for them,Still cost you a €1 for the tag. Won't be long adding up.

jmrc

how much is a chip in a dog or horse?
if we were to chip the lambs day one or what ever then i could see the value but the tags are a complete heart ache.
tags and sheep wire do not make a good mix.

paddysdream

Eating the dinner and that comment about dog and horse tracability has put me right off!

On a more serious note its a rumen bolus that's used with sheep.Not used much here or in the UK and even with an EID bolus you still need an(black I think) ear tag.Still a loss rate with these(pretty low though)plus the recovery rate in factories has to be 100% or you run the risk of foodchain contamination(back to the gee gee's again) so processors aren't as keen on them.Plus cost of bolus would ,I imagine,far exceed that of a set of 2 ear tags.
Chipping ala dogs and horses would not really work with sheep as to scan either you need to hold the wand quiet close to read and at the most you are doing a couple of animals at a time unlike say a killing line or a mart intake.
Was it not about 15 euro or so to chip a dog?Is it not becoming mandatory for pups in the next year or two?
Much bigger uptake in Spain and Portugal I read somewhere but then these are in feedlots mainly and think its Government trained and paid technicians who insert the bolus.
Think the option is in Ireland to use the bolus system but cost issues etc. would make it unviable

ganmo

I think the cost of the bolus is around 4 quid

Willfarman

Skins come off and the ears go into a bin. Traceability stops at the factory gates. No point in individual numbers. A flock number only Eid tag and Have it in every Sheep in your flock is a simple workable system.

MayoAreMagic

Willfarman wrote: »

Skins come off and the ears go into a bin. Traceability stops at the factory gates. No point in individual numbers. A flock number only Eid tag and Have it in every Sheep in your flock is a simple workable system.

As was pointed out earlier, the thing driving up the price is the EID tag itself. Changing the number on it isn't going to save you anything. It still has to be made and programmed.

This is just to make life easier for the factories and store lamb dealers. If they want an easier life let them pick up the tab. Let store lamb dealers order an EID tag for the lambs they bought, and let factories pay a premium for lambs with EID tags that covers the cost and labour. Otherwise let them put on their reading glasses and put it down as part of the process required to make money. Farmers get nothing out of it so why are they expected to pay? I'll do that when factories offer to pay a share of a 5 star ram Im buying - it is in their interests after all...

Willfarman

The eid tags at a euro pice don't won't break the bank. It's the individual numbering on the Certs that has everyone fup ped up. Factories and farmers alike.

ganmo

This kind of demands on suppliers happens when there is goodwill between both parties or the customer has no other outlet for their product.
Do factories have any goodwill with farmers? No as a large proportion of farmers distrust them.
And we still have marts as a viable alternative to factories where farmer power is more evident than that of the factory

paddysdream

Willfarman wrote: »

The eid tags at a euro pice don't won't break the bank. It's the individual numbering on the Certs that has everyone fup ped up. Factories and farmers alike.

Everyone's situation is different but here a switch from tip tag (15 c. approx) to EID (1.20 approx) means an extra cost of upwards of 1k for absolutely no gain.
Each and every lamb sold here is tagged only after being weighed and penned for sale whether for factory (95%) or mart.Like the vast majority of farmers never have to read sheep unless bought in ones.
Tag in sequence and just put in first number,draw line and put in last numbered lamb.Two 4 or 5 digit numbers aint all that much of a problem.
Eid with ewes is here a few years;all ewes 6 years down are eid at this stage so no bother with that but the idea of paying for an eid tag to facilitate factories and marts in saving money is a bit of a farce esp. when the tag in my lambs is there for less than 12 hours in most cases.
Flock number tag is I think allowed in Scotland for lambs straight from farm to factory.No reason why its not allowed here as you can only trace the lamb to the farm gate and no further.Once you can ascertain which farm the lamb came from then what more is needed?

Willfarman

I buy in a few lambs and find it a right pain in the hole to be reading and writing numbers. I used to just bang in my own tags but was pulled up for doing so.

paddysdream

Willfarman wrote: »

I buy in a few lambs and find it a right pain in the hole to be reading and writing numbers. I used to just bang in my own tags but was pulled up for doing so.

Will agree that eid with a scanner would suit store finishers esp large scale ones but for the vast majority of farmers it would just entail an extra cost in what's already a low margin industry with no benefit.
Basically Eid will suit everyone (mart,factory,store finisher)apart from the person who actually lambs the ewe's and provides the raw material and the basis for the whole industry.
The rule allowing you to substitute your own tag with,I assume, correlation to the missing tag(yeah that happens!) is gone a year or two.Now you have to order a replacement tag to replace the missing one which could entail reading all the sheep and then deciding where the say the lamb or lambs missing tags came from.
In reality if you buy even 50 replacement ewes from 3 farms and 5 of these sheep loose tags how are you to decide which is which.Maybe the red tag but is traceability out the window at this stage?
Wonder how many of these were sold last year?Don't know if I have ever even seen one.