Proposed sheep tagging changes.

Green farmer

paddysdream wrote: »

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The rule allowing you to substitute your own tag with,I assume, correlation to the missing tag(yeah that happens!) is gone a year or two. /QUOTE


That definitely gone ? As long as properly recorded in your flock register, that was a perfectly fine way of doing things.

paddysdream

Green farmer wrote: »

paddysdream wrote: »

.

The rule allowing you to substitute your own tag with,I assume, correlation to the missing tag(yeah that happens!) is gone a year or two. /QUOTE


That definitely gone ? As long as properly recorded in your flock register, that was a perfectly fine way of doing things.

Think so but who knows?Thought you had to order a replacement one but stand to be corrected.

Cran

There's an phone app Allflex tags have that can be used in UK to scan lambs. Not sure if fully up to speed but idea is will populate an electronic movement document, then email one to dept, one to place being moved and one to yourself to update your electronic flock register.

Department role out an electronic movement form that all software suppliers can incorporate with an electronic flock book and I'll be more open to eid slaughter lambs. Otherwise no benefit only additional cost.

Willfarman

Essentially all a tag needs to do is correspond to the owner. And be easily read with a simple accurate paper trail. I think that a flock number only tag is enough in all sheep. A simple head count flock register similar to the sheep census to be filled every 3 weeks for all sheep over 6 months of age and kept would be a long way ahead of the current system.

The current flock register causes much head scratching. The tagging even more so.

simonhm

The whole lot is for no nonsense. Ie

Bleating Lamb

So when are these 'proposed changes' due for roll out?

feargale

Are there presently any legal requirements to tag sheep? I ask as a non-farmer. Thank you.

ganmo

feargale wrote: »

Are there presently any legal requirements to tag sheep? I ask as a non-farmer. Thank you.

yes
to keep sheep you must be registered with the dept have them tagged and submit the annual sheep census

Nekarsulm

feargale wrote: »

Are there presently any legal requirements to tag sheep? I ask as a non-farmer. Thank you.

Every sheep over 12 months of age must be double tagged, a plastic tag with your herd identifier and unique sequential identity number in one ear, and a second tag with the same number in the other ear. In addition, the second ears tag has a chip in it that can be read by a hand-held scanner.
Any animal moving to another farm or to a mart/factory (under 1 year of age) must be tagged.
Up to now these didnt need the electronic tag, but from next spring electronic tags will be manditory.
All movements/tagging events/purchases must be recorded in your herd register.
All sales must be recorded in triplicate in your sales register, with one copy being dispatched to the Dept. Ag.

paddysdream

Bleating Lamb wrote: »

So when are these 'proposed changes' due for roll out?

As with all things in Ireland progress is slow but sure !!!!!!!!!!

As of October 1st you can no longer purchase non EID tags for lambs.Those non EID tags you have in stock can be used on lambs until 31st May as far as I know.
So the idea is to order enough tags this month to cover lamb sales till beginning of June 2019.

Ordered ewe EID tags this week for ewe lambs being kept for breeding.Costing 1:40 a set with Co-Op Animal Health.Thats for an order of 100.Perhaps might be cheaper with a larger order.Priced the new lamb EID tags and was told they are 1 euro a piece.

That's a rather pricey earring for wearing for,in many cases,4 or 5 hours.At todays lamb price its a one percent cut straight off the "profit" of each and every lamb you sell.That's on a factory lamb killing full weight .What about the 25 kg store mountain lamb making 40/50 euro ?2 or 3 percent of the gross price before even considering what the producer is actually making.
Clearing a tenner a head on those lambs means that the extra EID cost (80/90 cent) is almost 10% of the profit.

Hard Knocks

How much is the cheapest rid reader?

Can you get replacement eid tags, or do you renumber?

paddysdream

Hard Knocks wrote: »

How much is the cheapest rid reader?

Can you get replacement eid tags, or do you renumber?

Thought they were 600/800 euro but that could be miles out.There was a TAMS grant for them a few years ago but dropped due to lack of interest.Not much use for the run of the mill farmer finishing his own lambs as what would you be reading?

Nearly everyone only tags on day of sale and no mention of removal of dispatch dockets/herd register etc.Anyways the FCI has still to be signed by law I think so even if dispatch book goes you will still have to sign a form.Rather less onerous though than reading 50 cast ewes by flashlight in a mucky pen,writing down the numbers in a soggy notebook,dropping said notebook onto floor of pen and then fcuking the sheep out of it before starting all over again before realising that the biro was the last one in the jeep (us sheep farmers sign a lot of cheque's!!) and having to head 10 miles home to get another one and then coming back to find that those bsatadring sheep have escaped into a 50 acre field of wet kale.Ah the glamorous life we lead eh.
All the fault of those EID tags.

To answer your other question;think you can get replacement tags but in reality have never ordered any and never heard of anyone doing so either.Perhaps pedigree breeders?To do so would entail reading all the sheep and then figuring out what tag no's were missing.A job for that 1k tag reader perhaps?Cheaper solution would be to just stick another tag in.

Green farmer

Let’s be honest, the vast majority of sheep farmers are small lads, scraping out a barely basic living. These electronic tags are going to add nothing, other then cost to the poorest part of the system. All this hoop jumping, just to make a factory’s job easier, whilst giving nothing back. If the minister was so confident in his brainchild, then he should make it optional and see what percentage would tag electronically. I can guess the uptake .......... next to zero !!!!!

Hard Knocks

paddysdream wrote: »

Thought they were 600/800 euro but that could be miles out.There was a TAMS grant for them a few years ago but dropped due to lack of interest.Not much use for the run of the mill farmer finishing his own lambs as what would you be reading?

Nearly everyone only tags on day of sale and no mention of removal of dispatch dockets/herd register etc.Anyways the FCI has still to be signed by law I think so even if dispatch book goes you will still have to sign a form.Rather less onerous though than reading 50 cast ewes by flashlight in a mucky pen,writing down the numbers in a soggy notebook,dropping said notebook onto floor of pen and then fcuking the sheep out of it before starting all over again before realising that the biro was the last one in the jeep (us sheep farmers sign a lot of cheque's!!) and having to head 10 miles home to get another one and then coming back to find that those bsatadring sheep have escaped into a 50 acre field of wet kale.Ah the glamorous life we lead eh.
All the fault of those EID tags.

To answer your other question;think you can get replacement tags but in reality have never ordered any and never heard of anyone doing so either.Perhaps pedigree breeders?To do so would entail reading all the sheep and then figuring out what tag no's were missing.A job for that 1k tag reader perhaps?Cheaper solution would be to just stick another tag in.

Just noticed a some ewes have lost a tag recently, not sure if EID or mart tag.
Reader would be handy to see which but that’s 4/5 years lamb sales to purchase
I fear this 1 off €100 will put up prices by €100

Hard Knocks

Green farmer wrote: »

Let’s be honest, the vast majority of sheep farmers are small lads, scraping out a barely basic living. These electronic tags are going to add nothing, other then cost to the poorest part of the system. All this hoop jumping, just to make a factory’s job easier, whilst giving nothing back. If the minister was so confident in his brainchild, then he should make it optional and see what percentage would tag electronically. I can guess the uptake .......... next to zero !!!!!

Could be big push by inspectors as now just wave a wand instead of actually checking tags

Willfarman

With regard to the costing I think it will go unnoticed here overall. It’s a bit like the non smoker costing up a smokers habit and lecturing him on the fact that he spent the the price of a yacht over the years.. smoker turns and asks where’s your yacht then. As I say the individual numbering is where the nonsense started but there’s going to be no turnaround on that now so to be honest I welcome the eid coming in the store lambs if it will negate me having to read and write the full sequence of numbers on the dispatch dockets.

Nekarsulm

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Could be big push by inspectors as now just wave a wand instead of actually checking tags

Had a sheep inspection last autumn, and they read every one and wrote themm down by hand.
I asked if they didnt use the wand reader, and they said "no, I never use it"!

paddysdream

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Could be big push by inspectors as now just wave a wand instead of actually checking tags

Well any ewe born since 2010(?) should be EID tagged so there cannot be a lot of non EID tagged breeding sheep hanging around at this stage.

Last inspection here he used a wand and that was 2 years ago.The change to tagging regime will not really have any impact on anyone finishing their own lambs or even selling as stores in mart apart from the extra cost.
Oh and of course the extra cents a kilo we are promised because full EID will of course increase traceability and open up many new lucrative markets for our lamb.And if you believe that then I have some magic beans for sale.

Green farmer

paddysdream wrote: »

Oh and of course the extra cents a kilo we are promised because full EID will of course increase traceability and open up many new lucrative markets for our lamb.And if you believe that then I have some magic beans for sale.

I wonder, is Larry is the type of lad to share the extra profit generated from these new lucrative markets ? Eyes roll !!!

wrangler

Green farmer wrote: »

I wonder, is Larry is the type of lad to share the extra profit generated from these new lucrative markets ? Eyes roll !!!

Most countries are using EID now, I can't see much of an improvement in price, It's just a case of keeping up with the competition.
Neither Bord bia nor ICM said that it would improve price when asked in Athenry this year

paddysdream

wrangler wrote: »

Most countries are using EID now, I can't see much of an improvement in price, It's just a case of keeping up with the competition.
Neither Bord bia nor ICM said that it would improve price when asked in Athenry this year

Part of the justification from the Minister was that "certain" markets were looking for it and that it would Irish lamb to be sold into new markets

wrangler

paddysdream wrote: »

Part of the justification from the Minister was that "certain" markets were looking for it and that it would Irish lamb to be sold into new markets

That's why I said about the competition, they all have EID
So it's probably expected now.
ICMs new plant in belgium is selling welsh and irish lamb under the name of Celtic lamb to Belgian supermarkets but they demand more detailed traceability and the welsh have EID.

Green farmer

wrangler wrote: »

That's why I said about the competition, they all have EID
So it's probably expected now.
ICMs new plant in belgium is selling welsh and irish lamb under the name of Celtic lamb to Belgian supermarkets but they demand more detailed traceability and the welsh have EID.

I honestly don’t get the traceability bit. All our lambs are individually tagged, killed and then chopped up and fired in to a box together with lambs from across the water. What’s traceable about that ? Also how is the electronic tag any more traceable then the ordinary cheap slaughter tag that we all use now ? Seriously only one winner here, and it ain’t the sheep

Buford T. Justice XIX

There was difficulty earlier this year tracing the original farms that lambs came from before being fattened on another farm pre slaughter. They couldn't find the original farms for disease surveillance after lambs killed out with an uncommon disease.
I'll say no more about that but the Dept hands were forced, to a large degree, to rectify this.
I don't like it myself but it really has to be done.


You'll all get or have got a new explanation of how this is going to work in the post.

Nekarsulm

Got a letter today explaining the extension of electronic tags to all sheep.

ganmo

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

There was difficulty earlier this year tracing the original farms that lambs came from before being fattened on another farm pre slaughter. They couldn't find the original farms for disease surveillance after lambs killed out with an uncommon disease.
I'll say no more about that but the Dept hands were forced, to a large degree, to rectify this.
I don't like it myself but it really has to be done.


You'll all get or have got a new explanation of how this is going to work in the post.

if store lamb buyers had payed more for lambs with etags they'd get lambs etagged but they refused and if what you say is right its down to the store buyers that this was brought in due to their poor record keeping.

Buford T. Justice XIX

ganmo wrote: »

if store lamb buyers had payed more for lambs with etags they'd get lambs etagged but they refused and if what you say is right its down to the store buyers that this was brought in due to their poor record keeping.

I won't argue with you on that at all, ganmo, but the damage to our lamb exports would have been catastrophic at best.

paddysdream

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

There was difficulty earlier this year tracing the original farms that lambs came from before being fattened on another farm pre slaughter. They couldn't find the original farms for disease surveillance after lambs killed out with an uncommon disease.
I'll say no more about that but the Dept hands were forced, to a large degree, to rectify this.
I don't like it myself but it really has to be done.


You'll all get or have got a new explanation of how this is going to work in the post.

And EID will help this how?
That's very like the "we know better than you " line often spun when any logical reason is unable to stand up.Not saying it ain't true but ???????????Heard all this stuff 2/3 years ago and still waiting for this "exotic" disease to become public.Same old "shur it was terrible and we will tell you about it sometime" line been spun back then.

If the lambs were tagged and sold through the mart or privately then how would the type of tag help in tracing them?
Thats like saying they were tagged with a polka dot tag instead of a yellow tag.
Once a lamb/ewe looses its tag it's 99.99% untraceable.If two bought in lambs/ewes lose their tag and sheep have been bought in from more than one source then how will you know which is which ?The one euro EID tag buried in the field certainly won't tell you that ,no more than the 12 cent one it previously might have had.
No one within the Dept. has ever been able to defend this on any grounds other than window dressing for a visiting delegation plus the fact that it makes them look like they are doing something when the reality is that its just an extra unjustified cost to farmers.

Better perhaps if they just came out and told the truth;factories want it; Marts want it;both for the same reason reduce costs whilst marts also felt that EID there while non EID allowed direct farm to slaughter would give factories an unfair advantage
Dept. want it;makes life easier when they look to be doing something/anything.The fact is that legally under EU rules there was/still is nothing stopping us using a flock number on sheep tags instead of individual tag no's.But that would have been seen as a backward step so never gonna happen.
The reality is that foot and mouth forced Dept into sheep tagging scheme and so as to be seem as the good little Europeans we aspire to be (and a serious amount of ass covering) they panicked into a bells and whistles system that in hindsight was/is very burdensome and over officious.But what else can you expect in Ireland?

paddysdream

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I won't argue with you on that at all, ganmo, but the damage to our lamb exports would have been catastrophic at best.

Like i said before,"this" happened 3 years ago according to dept. vets at previous attempt to justify EID.Same story;damage to exports,farmers income decimated etc etc etc .

wrangler

paddysdream wrote: »

And EID will help this how?
That's very like the "we know better than you " line often spun when any logical reason is unable to stand up.Not saying it ain't true but ???????????Heard all this stuff 2/3 years ago and still waiting for this "exotic" disease to become public.Same old "shur it was terrible and we will tell you about it sometime" line been spun back then.

If the lambs were tagged and sold through the mart or privately then how would the type of tag help in tracing them?
Thats like saying they were tagged with a polka dot tag instead of a yellow tag.
Once a lamb/ewe looses its tag it's 99.99% untraceable.If two bought in lambs/ewes lose their tag and sheep have been bought in from more than one source then how will you know which is which ?The one euro EID tag buried in the field certainly won't tell you that ,no more than the 12 cent one it previously might have had.
No one within the Dept. has ever been able to defend this on any grounds other than window dressing for a visiting delegation plus the fact that it makes them look like they are doing something when the reality is that its just an extra unjustified cost to farmers.

Better perhaps if they just came out and told the truth;factories want it; Marts want it;both for the same reason reduce costs whilst marts also felt that EID there while non EID allowed direct farm to slaughter would give factories an unfair advantage
Dept. want it;makes life easier when they look to be doing something/anything.The fact is that legally under EU rules there was/still is nothing stopping us using a flock number on sheep tags instead of individual tag no's.But that would have been seen as a backward step so never gonna happen.
The reality is that foot and mouth forced Dept into sheep tagging scheme and so as to be seem as the good little Europeans we aspire to be (and a serious amount of ass covering) they panicked into a bells and whistles system that in hindsight was/is very burdensome and over officious.But what else can you expect in Ireland?

Northern lambs have two tags and we've been asked by a chinese delegation ow come we're not like the north, it was about the time of that food fair that pressure came on for EID.....Two tags properly managed should be foolproof.
We also had the french dept ag here too and they were't convinced by our records and our guys said they were brought to our farm because of our records.
As I said before trying to sell meat now with out traceability is like selling a car wthout power steering.....it drives/taste the same but it won't sell if it hasn't the extras

Green farmer

wrangler wrote: »

Northern lambs have two tags and we've been asked by a chinese delegation ow come we're not like the north, it was about the time of that food fair that pressure came on for EID.....Two tags properly managed should be foolproof.
We also had the french dept ag here too and they were't convinced by our records and our guys said they were brought to our farm because of our records.
As I said before trying to sell meat now with out traceability is like selling a car wthout power steering.....it drives/taste the same but it won't sell if it hasn't the extras

New Zealand seems to be getting away without it. But just say if nothing changes and the eid is rolled out, what are they going to do about reports that at certain times of the year, up to 50% of some factories lamb comes in from across the water. Where’s the traceability there ? Weren’t all the different agencies washing their hands of that one a few months ago.

paddysdream

wrangler wrote: »

Northern lambs have two tags and we've been asked by a chinese delegation ow come we're not like the north, it was about the time of that food fair that pressure came on for EID.....Two tags properly managed should be foolproof.
We also had the french dept ag here too and they were't convinced by our records and our guys said they were brought to our farm because of our records.
As I said before trying to sell meat now with out traceability is like selling a car wthout power steering.....it drives/taste the same but it won't sell if it hasn't the extras

Get all the "easier to sell if everyone's ass is covered" idea but still one tag is one tag ,EID or not.
If someone can explain to me how the same thing(tag with individual number)in an ovine ear is somehow different because said tag contains a microchip costing 90 cents plus then I am all ears(untagged of course)

All these scare stories about a still unmentionable outbreak of an unmentionable disease in an unmentionable flock in an unmentionable area of Ireland ?Hmmm

Your analogy re the car is somewhat correct but its more like;

We are selling Mercedes lamb for Dacia price so if we pretend to change the place of manafacture we will get more.Thing is we will be stuck with Mercedes costs and still get Dacia price as money is made by processors from volume and margin over purchase price and not actual retail price.

paddysdream

Actually 2 tags (non EID) would be cheaper;probably 30 cents versus one euro or so.
Not a lot perhaps but on 1k lambs that's the difference of 700 euro per annum.

Wrangler;regarding your records,correct me if I am wrong but do/did you not have a closed flock with all lambs finished on farm?
If so then you would have had the easiest record keeping burden and least chance of mistakes/errors.Know its the same here apart from an odd year buying in some replacements and those are normally purchased private sale off farm.
What did the French find fault with (the system not your particular recording regime)and what have they over there?

Buford T. Justice XIX

paddysdream wrote: »

Get all the "easier to sell if everyone's ass is covered" idea but still one tag is one tag ,EID or not.
If someone can explain to me how the same thing(tag with individual number)in an ovine ear is somehow different because said tag contains a microchip costing 90 cents plus then I am all ears(untagged of course)

All these scare stories about a still unmentionable outbreak of an unmentionable disease in an unmentionable flock in an unmentionable area of Ireland ?Hmmm

Your analogy re the car is somewhat correct but its more like;

We are selling Mercedes lamb for Dacia price so if we pretend to change the place of manafacture we will get more.Thing is we will be stuck with Mercedes costs and still get Dacia price as money is made by processors from volume and margin over purchase price and not actual retail price.

PM sent.

Willfarman

This issue is small potatoes financially paddy. When we are lumbered with a system of nonsensical idivdual numbering this is the only way.. the big issue staring at us every year is the importations of Uk 🇬🇧 live sheep. What are these costing against they are bought and transported including commissions. If they are costing more than local sheep and it’s tactical market manipulation and I would be angered enough to support a French farmer union type protest.

wrangler

paddysdream wrote: »

Get all the "easier to sell if everyone's ass is covered" idea but still one tag is one tag ,EID or not.
If someone can explain to me how the same thing(tag with individual number)in an ovine ear is somehow different because said tag contains a microchip costing 90 cents plus then I am all ears(untagged of course)

All these scare stories about a still unmentionable outbreak of an unmentionable disease in an unmentionable flock in an unmentionable area of Ireland ?Hmmm

Your analogy re the car is somewhat correct but its more like;

We are selling Mercedes lamb for Dacia price so if we pretend to change the place of manafacture we will get more.Thing is we will be stuck with Mercedes costs and still get Dacia price as money is made by processors from volume and margin over purchase price and not actual retail price.

Northern Ireland have one EID and one ordinary tag, It's just another example of what I call the race to the bottom, one seller offers something and then evryone has to offer it and then to get the edge they have to offer something else....all adding more cost.
Don't know what the New zealand traceability rules are and they'd really be at Dacia price, at least New Zealand lamb in England is cheaper despite paying the cost of transport halfway around the world. My relatives in England buy nothing else when they want lamb.
Sheep traceability here is not watertight and the french guys picked holes in ours.....not mistakes as such but showing opportunties to ....er bluff if you like.
Ireally don't know what started all this rubbish in a country that always produced the best of food

Sheep breeder

paddysdream wrote: »

Actually 2 tags (non EID) would be cheaper;probably 30 cents versus one euro or so.
Not a lot perhaps but on 1k lambs that's the difference of 700 euro per annum.

Wrangler;regarding your records,correct me if I am wrong but do/did you not have a closed flock with all lambs finished on farm?
If so then you would have had the easiest record keeping burden and least chance of mistakes/errors.Know its the same here apart from an odd year buying in some replacements and those are normally purchased private sale off farm.
What did the French find fault with (the system not your particular recording regime)and what have they over there?

The French system is very tight job with a lot tagged at birth and disease is a big thing in France for traceability and a lot using Eid.the French ministry are not easy to deal with.

Green farmer

Sheep breeder wrote: »

The French system is very tight job with a lot tagged at birth and disease is a big thing in France for traceability and a lot using Eid.the French ministry are not easy to deal with.

The French currently being paid €6.38 a kilo. Give me the same money as the French and I’ll stick on as many eid tags as they like.

wrangler

Green farmer wrote: »

The French currently being paid €6.38 a kilo. Give me the same money as the French and I’ll stick on as many eid tags as they like.

Most french sheep are reared indoors, probably lambing three times every twenty four mths......to be honest the look of them would put me off lamb for life.
Irish lamb look way better quality, french people are very nationalistic though

Green farmer

wrangler wrote: »

Most french sheep are reared indoors, probably lambing three times every twenty four mths......to be honest the look of them would put me off lamb for life.
Irish lamb look way better quality, french people are very nationalistic though

Drove up through western France a few years ago, a few hundred miles, from vendee to roscoff. Can’t recall even seeing one sheep the entire journey