The housing crisis and where we go from here

gaius c

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just for a minute, let's think about rent allowance and the landlords who will take them on.

These LL's are performing a social function for the State, i.e. housing those in need.

However up to 52% of the income is taken back from the LL in tax. Also LL has to bear non payment, upkeep, replacement of white goods, redecoration and so on. I know this can be offset against tax.

So can anyone tell me why any landlord would perform the State's function for them without any incentive to do so. I am talking about LL's who DO take RA and that number is dwindling fast. And I can see why.

Imagine taking on a RA tenant to house them on behalf of the State, and having to pay over 50% back to said Government for doing this!

As a poster above said, anyone taking on RA clients should be allowed a huge amount of the rent tax free. The crisis would end overnight.

If landlords need tax laws changed retrospectively to prevent them making losses, it doesn't say much about their business acumen making such poor investments in the first place.

Spanish Eyes

gaius c wrote: »

If landlords need tax laws changed retrospectively to prevent them making losses, it doesn't say much about their business acumen making such poor investments in the first place.

I said nothing about anything being retrospective. Legislation rarely is anyway.

My point was that there are so few landlords offering properties to RA and RAS tenants that surely some incentive would improve matters.

I accept, as another poster said, that this might also impact on private tenants.

It is a difficult problem alright.

Idbatterim

typical, a blink of an eye ago we were having the same problems and here we are again. Nothing will be different this time! they will blow the same hot air again, damn well paid people in government and councils etc, just talking about the same problems that they have for decades!

The entry level housing needs to be reduced in cost. This BS about dual aspect, 55 sq m minimum, we are discussing the likes of the current shambles and this is what they are concerned about! Allow higher density, cheaper entry level units and sort out dublins **** transport infrastructure. Which would allow to people live further out and commute in viably and open up large amounts of land for development...

riclad

Bedsits are not legal anymore,
landlords have no incentive at all to take on ra tenants in dublin.
Women on the housing list know ,houses are only given out to someone with 2 kids or more.
Theres very little housing for rent if you are on a low income, a tenant on rent allowance.
Women with 2 kids are now living in hotels in 1 room, with a ensuite bathroom.
Thats the crisis.
The government could annouce a housing program,
we will build x amount of social housing units.Every year for the next 5 years.
Also we are taking in 100,s of migrants ,where will those people live.
Reduce building costs.
Also reduce dual aspect rules for apartments.
Reduce minimum building size from 80 to 65sq metres.
maybe have 1 parking space for every 2 apartments.
Theres alot of landlords renting who make zero profit,
loan is bigger than rental income,
and they still pay tax.
They are in negative equity so cant sell the property.

indie warrior

I am one of those landlords who rents their house through Ras, I have to pay 52% tax on my rental income ( before I pay the mortgage on it) , my tax bill is over 4 k this year which I can't afford so looks like I will have to sell house and put another family effectively back to the state and more then likely make them homeless

Ray Palmer

Tanner Old Claw wrote: »

Virtually nobody will want to willing move out of their family home. People are far too attached to them and will have no interest in moving. They will also want to keep the property in the family and not sell it on, usually with one of their children taking it over at some point.

I know you don't have the emotive attachment Irish people have to their home but for a large majority the family home is like part of the family.

Its the same reason Irish people only consider home as their home house and not places they are staying while renting etc.

I think you are way over stating why people wouldn't move. Most people want to stay in their community. Yes some people are very attached to their houses but to suggest it near 100% is a bit odd. People downsize as is so encouraging it will definitely persuade more. If their children are moving into the house they may be quite happy to move out somewhere less work and close by.

riclad

Where do they move to,
if you move in dublin , to another house do you make a profit .
Probably not unless you move from a posh area to a working class area .
IF someone lives in house and are over 50 will they be willing to move to a 1 or 2 bed apartment .
And pay service charges .
middle class people tend to want to live in middle class area,s .
IF you want to downsize your choice is maybe buy an apartment or
move to the country where theres more houses for sale .
IN the short term the only solution i see is for the government to give
rent allowance landlords the 12k tax credit .
Same as the rent a room scheme credit .
They are spending millions on renting rooms in hotels ,
A hotel is not a ideal place to live full time .
They could buy a few blocks of apartments from nama ,
and give it dublin city council ,and
reduce the housing list .
nama owns 1000,s of apartments .

handlemaster

To incentives landlords to take welfare tenants would seem to be the logical solution . Why would they take the risk otherwise

athtrasna

handlemaster wrote: »

To incentives landlords to take welfare tenants would seem to be the logical solution . Why would they take the risk otherwise

Which then moves the problem to lower income workers, many of which will then opt to quit working and go through the social welfare situation. It's a vicious circle.

handlemaster

athtrasna wrote: »

Which then moves the problem to lower income workers, many of which will then opt to quit working and go through the social welfare situation. It's a vicious circle.

Not really it just puts welfare tenants on a more even keal with working tenants.

hawkwind23

Maybe we should regress back to tenements?
Maybe workhouses?
Maybe i see things different but there are a lot of freeloaders in Ireland but all eyes are cast downward.
Stop regressing our society that was hard fought for by your ancestors

athtrasna

handlemaster wrote: »

Not really it just puts welfare tenants on a more even keal with working tenants.

Take welfare people with a tax incentive or workers and pay up to 52% tax on the rental income. How is that an even keel ?

Villa05

handlemaster wrote:

Not really it just puts welfare tenants on a more even keal with working tenants.

Low income people have poorer accommodation quality than rent allowance clients and are more likely to share than get a place of their own

handlemaster

athtrasna wrote: »

Take welfare people with a tax incentive or workers and pay up to 52% tax on the rental income. How is that an even keel ?

The risk of non payment and non recourse on damages is higher. The deposit covers very little

ec18

handlemaster wrote: »

Not really it just puts welfare tenants on a more even keal with working tenants.

Should they be though? I don't mean to sound harsh but if someone is working and wants to live in Dublin, why should they be on an even Keal with someone that isn't working?

handlemaster

handlemaster wrote: »

Not really it just puts welfare tenants on a more even keal with working tenants.

Why should welfare tenants who are basically getting housed for free (or close to it) be on an even keel with those going out and working to put a roof over their head?

lollsangel

handlemaster wrote: »

Not really it just puts welfare tenants on a more even keal with working tenants.

But it puts the person on rent allowance at an advantage. Would you pick a person working and pay the higher tax or the ra for the subsitised tax. We moved with our kids from Kerry to Tipperary last year, both of us had gotten fulltime jobs and ended up waiting 3 months for a suitable house.

johnnyskeleton

Villa05 wrote: »

Low income people have poorer accommodation quality than rent allowance clients and are more likely to share than get a place of their own

Id atually say the opposite. In the last year or two rent allowancs recipients have maybe had to share rather than have a place on their own, but I know many working professionals who share and very few who can afford to rent on their own.

So while there may be more rent allowance people deciding to share now than there were before, this is just them reverting to par with most working people.

Thats notwithstanding the point that as a general rule a person who works and earns their own keep should get a better quality of accommodation than he people who rely on their taxes to pay for it.

hawkwind23 wrote: »

Maybe we should regress back to tenements?
Maybe workhouses?
Maybe i see things different but there are a lot of freeloaders in Ireland but all eyes are cast downward.
Stop regressing our society that was hard fought for by your ancestors

What exactly do you mean by this? Of course in an ideal world everyone would have a 3 bed semi to themselves and no one should live in a tenement. However, if the standards for rental allowance are set at a high level, you will still get people living in shared rooms - only they will be workers rather than social welfare recipients.

Your call for solidarity is all very well, but when the poorest are not those on welfare but those earning minimum wage to average industrial wage in Dublin it might be that theres too muh solidarity already.

Villa05

RESIDENTS IN A housing estate in Kildare are outraged at plans to demolish 44 homes and construct 23 new houses in their place.

I’ve checked Kildare County Council’s policy on anti-social behaviour and nowhere did it say they would knock down people’s homes and rebuild them. Otherwise we’d all be fighting with our neighbours!

http://www.thejournal.ie/council-estate-kildare-2277342-Aug2015/

Looks like the people in these council estates are more intelligent or less corrupt than the people sitting on the councils.

_Brian

indie warrior wrote: »

I am one of those landlords who rents their house through Ras, I have to pay 52% tax on my rental income ( before I pay the mortgage on it) , my tax bill is over 4 k this year which I can't afford so looks like I will have to sell house and put another family effectively back to the state and more then likely make them homeless

This is a huge problem. The notion of Landlords actually making a profit was demonised in society and through the press, the result was this madness full taxing of the rental income.

Why would Landlords bother to rent houses out just to be fleeced on the income to the point where the mortgages are unsustainable.

Like any business tax needs to be on the net profit. This will encourage more Lamdlords to invest in properties to be rented out. It's not a sin to allow Lamdlords make a profit and pushing Landlords out of the market across the country has contributed significantly to the current situation.

handlemaster

_Brian wrote: »

This is a huge problem. The notion of Landlords actually making a profit was demonised in society and through the press, the result was this madness full taxing of the rental income.

Why would Landlords bother to rent houses out just to be fleeced on the income to the point where the mortgages are unsustainable.

Like any business tax needs to be on the net profit. This will encourage more Lamdlords to invest in properties to be rented out. It's not a sin to allow Lamdlords make a profit and pushing Landlords out of the market across the country has contributed significantly to the current situation.

it would also improve the quality of accommodation also

castle2012

_Brian wrote: »

This is a huge problem. The notion of Landlords actually making a profit was demonised in society and through the press, the result was this madness full taxing of the rental income.

Why would Landlords bother to rent houses out just to be fleeced on the income to the point where the mortgages are unsustainable.

Like any business tax needs to be on the net profit. This will encourage more Lamdlords to invest in properties to be rented out. It's not a sin to allow Lamdlords make a profit and pushing Landlords out of the market across the country has contributed significantly to the current situation.

Totally agree . This is why I got out of the sector . Pure hassle , there's easyer ways to make a few bob . And I know many other friends doing the same .

riclad

Many landlords are just selling up,
the tax system make,s no sense ,
a landlord with 14k loan ,
rental income 10k could end up paying 3 tax approx.
even though he makes no real profit .
you can only claim on 75 per cent of interest on the loan,
I,M saying give tax credit on rent allowance tenants that have 1 or more children .
Yes the solution is more social housing built ,but it takes 3 years to build a house ,get planning permission,
meanwhile we are spending millions on renting rooms in hotels .
not a great solution ,
Kids have no space to play in .
When you have a problem you have to treat the worst situations first .
IE women with chilren who are homeless .
Maybe we need some new tax credits to build student housing in dublin ,
cork ,galway .
ONE of the reason we have a problem ,is bedsits are gone.
i lived in a house with 9 bedsits ,
a 3storey building .
People were very happy there .
That house was sold 4 years ago .
half the tenants were on rent allowance .
other half private tenants .
the government could announce in 3 weeks new tax credits for rent allowance landlords .
Rents have been going up the last 2 years,
does this government know what lorm term planning means ?
or they just wake up when theres a crisis .
The german government annouced new rent controls ,
rents can only go up by x per cent per year .
Because alot of germans live in private rented accomodation.
One example many countrys have tax credits for the film industry or gaming industry to encourage long term investments
in that sector .

athtrasna

Whatever happened to personal responsibility? My parents did what it took to keep a roof over our heads in the dark days of the 80s. They weren't expecting a handout or a house from the state. There are always going to be people who genuinely need to be housed by the state but I truly think the social housing list is gone crazy and needs a serious audit. There's still a culture in parts "have a baby, get a house, have more get a bigger house".

Someone being in a hotel in Tallaght because they don't want to live in the house they own in Kildare is not in genuine need of being housed by the state. Yet they're the ones making the headlines. People declaring they don't want to uproot the kids and move to another part of the country where rent allowance will actually cover a property equivalent to their needs...that's not a crisis.

There are people who have genuine needs to be housed by the state but many of these are getting pushed further down the lists as new people get added.

I think step one of starting to deal with the situation we now are in is a full audit of two things, the allocation of current housing stock, and the actual need of those on the list. Get a true picture.

uli84

c montgomery wrote: »

I have a relative who got a very nice council house fir him and his family about 5 years ago. House came with a check for 5 k to fit out the house. 3 years later relationship broke up and now both of them have a council house, both kids living with the mother.
My relative now has a pretty good job earning about 40k per year and still living in his 3 bed council house alone!
These situations should be reviewed regularly

This is sickening but I doubt it'll ever change

handlemaster

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/cork-mother-shares-home-with-four-generations-as-rents-rise-1.2321303

Will the lack of rental homes I wouldnt be surprised if the average 3 bed semi in Dublin hits 1400 per month

triple nipple

NIMAN wrote:

Do people honestly think it would be fair to say to a family in Donegal that there's a house free for them in Kerry, take it or leave it?

Yes, it should only be temporary anyway till the parents get jobs. Then out you get !

ec18

triple nipple wrote: »

Yes, it should only be temporary anyway till the parents get jobs. Then out you get !

It should if you are in the position that you need a house to be provided to you by the state, then it should be at the states convenience not where you'd like to live.

I'd love to live in Kiliney/Dalkey but I can't afford it so I can't. Why should someone not working be able to pick where they live? (I'm not suggesting that social housing people are asking to live in kiliney just an example of wants vs reality)

The whole system is broken anyway.

People should be living at home until they can afford to pay for their own accommodation and that means they should not be having kids until such a time as they can support them and themselves.

There are people in jobs living at home or having to live in house shares because they cannot afford their own place while on the other hand you have people queuing up for houses provided by the state because they see welfare as a way off live and expect that they can go out and have a flock of kids and expect to be housed and funded by the state.

The incentives for having kids to gain advantage need to be phased out for a start.

jimmycrackcorm

athtrasna wrote:

People declaring they don't want to uproot the kids and move to another part of the country where rent allowance will actually cover a property equivalent to their needs...that's not a crisis.

while I agree in principle, I heard the guy from threshold making the point that a single mother on welfare moving with her kids away from her family support meant that it would be almost impossible to get a job because childcare costs mean it's unlikely in most cases to make it practical.